The Turblown Low Mount Turbo System
06-29-2012, 04:22 PM
#77
Elliot took care of all the issues, he was great about it. It was mostly minor stuff. Like originally the coolant lines were hardlines. But they couldn't be tightened before the turbo was on the manifold on the car because of space constraints to maneuver the turbo into position with them on, and once the turbo was in place there wasn't enough room to get a wrench on them to tighten the fittings. So he swapped them out for braided TFE lines so they could be tightened up before the turbo was installed. I think he is including these in his kits going forward. The downpipe flange was a little off from my midpipe so he redid that. Some other little stuff that could easily be fixed if I had the tools, but I am just a garage hack mechanic. Elliot took care of everything.
06-29-2012, 08:53 PM
#80
07-15-2012, 03:22 PM
#81
07-16-2012, 01:55 AM
#82
SPOOLN8
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We do off a short version as someone else pointed out that can be mated to the greddy intake, intercooler plumbing and intercooler. We offer it with and without the oil/cooland feed and return lines if someone wants to make those themselves and save a few bucks. This is $3500 with the coolant lines. One would just an adapter coupler to mate to the greddy intake( ours is 3").
I have been facebook stalking this and loving everything you are saying.. I will probably swap this in place of my greddy setup. Absolutely lovin it! Keep up the good work.
Can we get some close ups of all the oil/coolant hard lines? Most interested in the oil return. Looks nice!
Can we get some close ups of all the oil/coolant hard lines? Most interested in the oil return. Looks nice!
07-16-2012, 02:06 AM
#83
SPOOLN8
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Sorry meant to comment on this too.... So for people with the low mount setup they will have to run without the subframe brace just below the turbo/wastegate? For a mainly street driven application will this be noticable/ be any problem?
07-16-2012, 08:33 AM
#84
Sorry meant to comment on this too.... So for people with the low mount setup they will have to run without the subframe brace just below the turbo/wastegate? For a mainly street driven application will this be noticable/ be any problem?
Just got back from a 2 month holiday overseas and damn i'm liking the looks of this for a greddy turbo upgrade..... Can't wait to see some numbers hoping to get into that 350+ whp area. I saw someone mention this earlier and didnt see a response, but is the wastgate dump to atmostphere for this setup?
Just got back from a 2 month holiday overseas and damn i'm liking the looks of this for a greddy turbo upgrade..... Can't wait to see some numbers hoping to get into that 350+ whp area. I saw someone mention this earlier and didnt see a response, but is the wastgate dump to atmostphere for this setup?
07-16-2012, 01:33 PM
#86
SPOOLN8
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I know this is a stand alone kit but read the Turblown quote below:
We do off a short version as someone else pointed out that can be mated to the greddy intake, intercooler plumbing and intercooler. We offer it with and without the oil/cooland feed and return lines if someone wants to make those themselves and save a few bucks. This is $3500 with the coolant lines. One would just an adapter coupler to mate to the greddy intake( ours is 3").
07-16-2012, 02:21 PM
#87
Thanks for the answers to my questions though! What I really want to know is that if I were to remove the subframe brace would I notice any subframe twist or flex under a street driven application; or is it a big no-no to drive around without the brace (I'm assuming it won't be a big difference)? Of coarse the brace would only be removed for the time it takes me to figure out how to modified it to fit.
I would not trust driving around much without the brace. It is my plan to mesure it with the turbo on the car. I will then bring the brace into a local metal shop and have them box and clearance the brace.
07-17-2012, 12:14 AM
#88
This was one of my concerns/complaints. It wasn't until later in the build that Elliot said I would need to remove the underbace, but when I questioned it he said it shouldn't affect driveability. Later he said he hadn't heard of anyone else that was concerned about it. He basically made it sound like I was being too picky. Regarding boxing and clearancing, I don't think it will be clean with the stock brace, there just isn't that much material compared to where the wastegate and dump tube conflict with the brace. Maybe an aftermarket or custom brace. If yours turns out the same as what I got you will see what I mean. I am curious to see how yours turns out...
07-17-2012, 09:15 PM
#95
I can tell you from my install the wastegate exit/dump tube came down right over the brace in an area where the brace is only a couple inches wide or so front to back. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos. If I left the dump tube off I think the brace might go back on, the wastegate would just blow right over the brace.
07-17-2012, 09:20 PM
#96
I can tell you from my install the wastegate exit/dump tube came down right over the brace in an area where the brace is only a couple inches wide or so front to back. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos. If I left the dump tube off I think the brace might go back on, the wastegate would just blow right over the brace.
07-17-2012, 10:02 PM
#97
I understand, just sharing my experience. I mentioned earlier that I am curious to see how yours comes out. FWIW my kit came with a TiAL MVR 44mm.
Up until now I have refrained from posting anything negative, but after discussing with a number of people I have come to the decision that it is not fair to the community to not share this.
Here's the emails between Elliot and I on the brace issue. Keep in mind, this is being told to me almost a month after I placed the order and after Elliot had charged $4500 on my card:
Elliot to me:
You have to remove the underbody brace. It won't clear the waste-gate. I also noticed a typo on my site, I do not use the Tial MVS ( 38mm), I use they Tial MVR(44mm).
My reply:
Do you mean I have to remove the brace just for installing and then put it back on or remove it for good? I am thinking the former but want to make sure.
Elliot's response:
You have to remove it for good. Or if you really wanted to you could modify it.
My response:
Ok. How does that impact track drivability?
Elliot's response:
I doubt one could notice the difference in handling at the track. An upper strut tower bar would help compensate for it too.
Then later from Elliot:
I will be extending the wastegate runner out farther also to clear the subframe brace.
But then he still says he can't make it work and I either need to deal with boost creep (after testing myself and purchasing a new wastegate and selling the old) or deal with no brace:
I have a small problem with fitment. I cannot get a tial 44mvr to fit with Oem underbrace. I can however make a tial mvs fit(38mm). I usually use the 44 mvr, and I would prefer to use that one to ensure proper boost control. In my experience the tial mvs(38mm) will only work if its plumbed correctly on our top mount system. I can properly plumb it on the low mount, but i won't know If it will not boost creep until its running. I would like you to make the call. Worst case scenario I will change the manifold for free, but you will have to send it with the downpipe back to me. You will also have to purchase a new mvr from us at our dealer cost and sell the slightly used mvs gate that will come with your kit. Generally the lower the boost level the harder it is to keep the boost low. I would think worst case scenario you would creep to 10psi..
Based on Elliot's advice I went with the what I thought was the better option, no boost creep, but no brace. Keep in mind also, that I told Elliot before ordering and along the way that I was looking for his advice and expertise:
Go with the 44mvr. I am not too concerned about the underbrace.
Later I wrote:
You didn’t tell me about the underbrace until you were building the kit. I said I was not “too concerned about the underbrace”. But it still bothers me that this was not told to me up front.
Elliot replied with:
I am not disagreeing with you. I guess part of the problem is no one ever cared about these things in the past, so I wasn't really aware it would be a problem. looked back and no one is running an underbrace I know of with a low mount, now even the guys who roadcourse their cars. Which incase you are wondering was one of the best handling roadcourse cars I've ever been in.
I wondered how someone that had built low-mounts before could just be figuring this out while building my kit. Turns out there is some gray area there:
You have been patient. The real problem is you are the first one to get a full low mount kit, and I've just been trying to vastly improve on everything, and there are a lot of things I can't forsee until I am right on top of them.
This was after telling me that he had built low-mounts for others. I relied on him for his alleged expertise, but obviously, by his own admission, he ran into problems he was not prepared for.
He also says tuning with a Cobb is difficult to get higher than 300rwhp:
I am not surprised you are having issues, those Cobb units are quite frankly extremely hard to tune, and I have only seen one boosted car run 100% correctly. Even on the dyno portion of the Shootout MM's car was having issues with the tune in the higher rpms. It took 12-14 hours of dyno tuning to get that 425rwhp car tuned( only one I have seen 100%). And btw he know has a Haltech, because Steve Kan wasn't able to get the tune perfect with the Cobb either.. I know now why most people can't get above 300rwhp, and its strictly tuning( only an issue with the Cobb).
Other issues that didn't sit well with me included the lead time on the kit. When we discussed, the day I ordered Feb 3'rd this year, he estimated it would be completed around mid-March. He told me it would be $2K down to start and the rest near completion. Around the end of February he requested to charge another $2500, which I agreed to. Mid-March I asked for status to make sure I had room on my card. He said let's plan on 3/15 for final payment, not indicating any issues with progress. I authorized final payment. Then he turned around and said he didn't even have the turbo in his possession. He didn't get it in stock until 4/10. Then there was weeks of excuses about not being able to get to his shop car, problems with shop equipment, etc. Along the way I kept asking him what modification I needed to be prepare to make to my car. He told me a few things, but not everything that was discovered once I received the kit. When I emailed him about all the unmentioned mods I ran into he gave me this great customer service response:
I am not responsible for informing you about what does and does not need to be modified. That is your responsibility. That is in our policy, and pretty much every other shop's I am aware of. You couldn't use that excuse if you got a traffic ticket for example. You never asked me those questions, there is no way for me to know what you do and do not know.
There is even more to the story, but figured this is enough for now. If people are interested I will continue to share.
Up until now I have refrained from posting anything negative, but after discussing with a number of people I have come to the decision that it is not fair to the community to not share this.
Here's the emails between Elliot and I on the brace issue. Keep in mind, this is being told to me almost a month after I placed the order and after Elliot had charged $4500 on my card:
Elliot to me:
You have to remove the underbody brace. It won't clear the waste-gate. I also noticed a typo on my site, I do not use the Tial MVS ( 38mm), I use they Tial MVR(44mm).
My reply:
Do you mean I have to remove the brace just for installing and then put it back on or remove it for good? I am thinking the former but want to make sure.
Elliot's response:
You have to remove it for good. Or if you really wanted to you could modify it.
My response:
Ok. How does that impact track drivability?
Elliot's response:
I doubt one could notice the difference in handling at the track. An upper strut tower bar would help compensate for it too.
Then later from Elliot:
I will be extending the wastegate runner out farther also to clear the subframe brace.
But then he still says he can't make it work and I either need to deal with boost creep (after testing myself and purchasing a new wastegate and selling the old) or deal with no brace:
I have a small problem with fitment. I cannot get a tial 44mvr to fit with Oem underbrace. I can however make a tial mvs fit(38mm). I usually use the 44 mvr, and I would prefer to use that one to ensure proper boost control. In my experience the tial mvs(38mm) will only work if its plumbed correctly on our top mount system. I can properly plumb it on the low mount, but i won't know If it will not boost creep until its running. I would like you to make the call. Worst case scenario I will change the manifold for free, but you will have to send it with the downpipe back to me. You will also have to purchase a new mvr from us at our dealer cost and sell the slightly used mvs gate that will come with your kit. Generally the lower the boost level the harder it is to keep the boost low. I would think worst case scenario you would creep to 10psi..
Based on Elliot's advice I went with the what I thought was the better option, no boost creep, but no brace. Keep in mind also, that I told Elliot before ordering and along the way that I was looking for his advice and expertise:
Go with the 44mvr. I am not too concerned about the underbrace.
Later I wrote:
You didn’t tell me about the underbrace until you were building the kit. I said I was not “too concerned about the underbrace”. But it still bothers me that this was not told to me up front.
Elliot replied with:
I am not disagreeing with you. I guess part of the problem is no one ever cared about these things in the past, so I wasn't really aware it would be a problem. looked back and no one is running an underbrace I know of with a low mount, now even the guys who roadcourse their cars. Which incase you are wondering was one of the best handling roadcourse cars I've ever been in.
I wondered how someone that had built low-mounts before could just be figuring this out while building my kit. Turns out there is some gray area there:
You have been patient. The real problem is you are the first one to get a full low mount kit, and I've just been trying to vastly improve on everything, and there are a lot of things I can't forsee until I am right on top of them.
This was after telling me that he had built low-mounts for others. I relied on him for his alleged expertise, but obviously, by his own admission, he ran into problems he was not prepared for.
He also says tuning with a Cobb is difficult to get higher than 300rwhp:
I am not surprised you are having issues, those Cobb units are quite frankly extremely hard to tune, and I have only seen one boosted car run 100% correctly. Even on the dyno portion of the Shootout MM's car was having issues with the tune in the higher rpms. It took 12-14 hours of dyno tuning to get that 425rwhp car tuned( only one I have seen 100%). And btw he know has a Haltech, because Steve Kan wasn't able to get the tune perfect with the Cobb either.. I know now why most people can't get above 300rwhp, and its strictly tuning( only an issue with the Cobb).
Other issues that didn't sit well with me included the lead time on the kit. When we discussed, the day I ordered Feb 3'rd this year, he estimated it would be completed around mid-March. He told me it would be $2K down to start and the rest near completion. Around the end of February he requested to charge another $2500, which I agreed to. Mid-March I asked for status to make sure I had room on my card. He said let's plan on 3/15 for final payment, not indicating any issues with progress. I authorized final payment. Then he turned around and said he didn't even have the turbo in his possession. He didn't get it in stock until 4/10. Then there was weeks of excuses about not being able to get to his shop car, problems with shop equipment, etc. Along the way I kept asking him what modification I needed to be prepare to make to my car. He told me a few things, but not everything that was discovered once I received the kit. When I emailed him about all the unmentioned mods I ran into he gave me this great customer service response:
I am not responsible for informing you about what does and does not need to be modified. That is your responsibility. That is in our policy, and pretty much every other shop's I am aware of. You couldn't use that excuse if you got a traffic ticket for example. You never asked me those questions, there is no way for me to know what you do and do not know.
There is even more to the story, but figured this is enough for now. If people are interested I will continue to share.
07-17-2012, 11:50 PM
#99
You can re-build that brace with some crome moly tubing and some welding...to make basically anything fit......it isn't a huge deal compared to the rest of the build. Why wouldn't you just get Elliot to make a brace that fits?
Too much drama over small ****
Too much drama over small ****
07-18-2012, 12:01 AM
#100
He wouldn't do anything about the brace. He said I would need to deal with it if I wanted to keep the brace. It's not just the brace. It's a credibility issue. It's all the little things added up. It's a matter of asking questions before shelling out $6500, then having things changed unexpectedly, being misled, then basically being told to deal with whatever I received. But whatever you got out of my post I am just sharing my experience.