flomulgator

As a geologist, you're killing me here. Mt. Mckinley is in central Alaska. In fact, it's further away from Colorado than Colorado is from New Jersey. 2nd, there are no roads to it. Third, everyone calls it Denali these days, even the state of AK is considering officially changing the name.

Sorry you had to bear the brunt of a pet peeve of mine.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

I just laughed very hard.
Hey least I know its the highest peek in the US

Red Devil

Ah okay, I see what you're saying. I'm just saying one flash would work for all of us, just like the factory. I was thinking when you said "funny" that you meant a car wouldn't accept the flash, and/or flat out would not work properly. That's where I brought in the Canzoomer reference.

Aseras

all you need is a analyzer on the command sent over the wire and a known flash file. then replace with your own and wirte your own program. same way the original xbox was cracked.

zoom44

of course i dont mean to sound as if im opposed to the hand held flash tuners and having hte ability to tweak via a software package. if you dotn run a cat you could gain some power and lean it out without worry about the rise in EGT that much. some of you know of my year or so long attempts with SCT and others. im more or less playign devil's advocate on richards side. and of course if he keeps waiting and no hand held unit becomes available how long should he keep his sc off the marlket if he has a "send it in" method available. thats really the point here.

aseras it is "simple" on paper but i dont see anyoen doing it- because its not that simple in doing it or all these IT types on this forum would have found a way to do it- same with the mazda6tech guys. of course you have to crack the code and know what to change in the file too.

speaking of which, did you get my email?

dsmdriver

iTrader: (3)

Just not how to spell "peak."

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

That wasn't the point. The point was it has lasted this long, just like the rest of them. Show me another supercharger that has this record of durability. Just about everyone of them that wasn't abused is still alive.

The other thing you missed was that this blower was built for a SBC. In fact it was installed in Elvis ex BMW 507. The DJ that owned it had blown the BMW. I have heard from my friend Jack Vines who is a brain trust of all things automotive old.
He informed me that Tommy Charles was a very popular DJ in the south until he ran a campain against the Beatles.

Another fact he gave was that his co DJ on the station was named Doug Latham. He also had a ride in the car with Charles back in the '60's. Trivia for you.

Now someone find me that car. I had a small format magazine from the '60's with an article on the car. Don't know what happened to it though.

zoom44

i know what your point ws and i read your comment i m just saying i always thought about getting a cutlass or a 442 and if i had one and the money id grab that in aheartbeat. especially since it has a history. I even know who Tommy Charles is (beatle fan here)

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

How long has that been up?

Richard i never got an answer, what exactly will your flash do? Why does the flash have to be different in FI applications; if your just using the MAF to say to the PCM that o there is more air coming in here lets add more fuel, why does everyone have separate flashes for FI applications, including RB who say "This flash is not intended for highly modified engines (ported, supercharged or turbocharged)".

BTW it would be awesome if whoever your developing this flash with to include such things as RB did; lowering the temperatures which the cooling fans turn on; and rasing the rev limit once you get the mixture right up there which will allow you to push a hair more boost too.

rotarygod

Map load points have to be changed for forced induction as opposed to naturally aspirated use. There are only so many map points and you want to use as many of them as possible. Let's say we have a naturally spirated engine. Let's also say that we have 16 map points for load. Could be more but this is just an example. Optimally we want to have the greatest vacuum the engine will ever see as somewhere below idle load level, say around 20 kpa or so. If our engine hits 100% efficiency at all, we know we need a max load point around here. Since the engine only hits this for a very small area, we don't need any higher. Let's set this max load point at 100 kpa. Now we've got a nice fine resolution of load points to fine tune with.

For forced induction, our load points go much higher. We need to change the load points to account for this as we only have so many points to work with. The more boost you intend to run, the higher the load points need to go and the farther apart the tuning points are which means less resolution. You wouldn't want the factory flash to have the map points built in to account for boost as you wouldn't have the fine tuning resolution that you do if it uses more of them. The more bost you run, the less resolution between points you have. Now we may want to have the top pressure level to be set to 200 kpa or possibly higher depending on how much boost you want to run. 200 kpa is half the resolution as 100 kpa. If you built this into the stock flash, you'd only be tuning with half as many points. Why would anyone do that?

On top of all of this, even if we build in the required load points to account or boost we still can not create a generic map for forced induction use unless we know exactly what turbo/supercahrger will be used, intake, exhaust, etc will go with it. The ecu will have load points that will understand pressure but it still won't know amount of airflow. I know that the car already has a mass air flow sensor so it would seem to account for this but this still doesn't make it possible to use one flash properly for all forms of forced induction. Flow is more important than the pressure it is at.

If Richard comes up with a flash, it wil need to run a little bit rich with the timing slightly retarded for safety. Keep in mind it doesn't have to run bad to do this. It's just safe. This way it would have a little built in safety for different exhaust, intake, fuel grade, etc. One flash can never under any circumstances do everything great. It can do what you need it to do great or you can make it do a little bit of everything but not necessarily well. You need a tailor made tune for different types of setups.

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for that it made things much clearer.

I've mentioned that the ecu pushes timing when driven hard up until the point where the knock sensor says "ok enough". Will the ecu continue to do that even if RP does retard it for safety?

Further will this still remain a "learning ECU" after Richard's flash?

Agreed, I just tend to have the personality type that when you have something and its not living up to its potential because it has to appease the majority it should be changed (much like the political climate of today )

I want Richard to release this damn thing, its certainly been a while, but I just don't want the market to float into complacency with "im ok with mailing my ECU". 1) Because practically no other brand of car has to deal with it, 2) because without the demand no one will ever develop it.

rotarygod

Unfortunately the stock knock sensor is practically useless. It doesn't do anything functionally to stop detonation and it retards timing when it hears many other things that aren't detonation. It is a pretty lousy knock sensor to put any faith in. Mazda didn't do so well with the sensor on this car.

zoom44

1st richard doesnt have aflash yet this is all speculation.


2nd of course it stays a learning pcm etc. you have not changed the firmware, you havent changed how it works only what it does. you havent told it how to drive only told it a different destination. your not telling it how to build you are only tellling it "make this instead"

ill try to come up with a couple other ways of sayign that if you dont get them

Aseras

Got your email.. and I am "doing it" or at least trying too. Job and the GF are killing me lately.. just lost my tech so I gotta do all his work and all my work now.

Last time I took my car into mazda I had a little something hooked up to the obd port. haven't had time to really check on the integrity of the data.. and to figure out all that they did.. I need to align it right and figure out what is "says"

Japan8

The ability to change more than just the fuel and spark maps would probably be good... particularly with FI. What I am thinking about are things like the DBW throttle, SDAIS and such...

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

What would you want changed with DBW throttle?

Cheers,
Hymee - "Market Researcher"

Japan8

Programmed restrictions... like keeping the throttle open during shifts and there is something else that it likely has related to hard launches.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Do you believe it does that already?

Perhaps we should take this to PM, or another thread. Don't want to hijack this thread anymore.

Cheers,
Hymee.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

launch control, i like it...

adjustment for tire size, and idle rpm, and the ability to kill the cel for a given problem...

humm, where did i see this before???? it escapes me now..

beers

deppenma

This thread has turned into a ECU/flash thread; even if it is related to the AFSC.


Have not heard from RP hopefully everything is going well with his court stuff so he can get back to work. RP sue the crap out of them that way we all get free AFSC's

rotarygod

Richard is doing good. He's redesigning some issues that he knows can be improved upon. Doing it properly. Sometimes it's frustrating but it's better to do it right the first time than to do it over again. Take K&N as an example.

This thread always gets side tracked!

ModMech

Unless I am WAY off in left field here....

The RX8 has two devices that pretty much make the installation of the ubiquitous (sp) Power Adder much easier than most other cars.

1) Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF)
2) Wide Band Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen sensor WB HEGO

With a wide band, if you "run out of MAF" it is really not too much of a problem as long as the load tables are correct. The ECU/ECM/PCM whatever you like to call it, *should* still use command "WOT" AFR, and be able to verify with the WB. The WB allows this, a standard HEGO sensor is utterly blind below 95% and above 105% stoich.

I am pretty sure, but not positive, that as long as the command AFR is "safe" for the AFSC, and the WB can and does operate at "full load" (ie: WOT conditions), it should not require drastic changes in the tables and maybe not even a reflash.

I have read every page, and searched this site, but I cannot make any truely informed as the the viability of this idea, but "It sounds good on paper" lol.

Most EFI vehicles with a MAF sensor "run" off the HEGO (Narrow band) until "WOT", at which time the PCM switches to the MAF and what's called "look up tables". So if you run out of MAF signal (signal over 4.99V indicates the airflow is greater than the MAF and PCM are PROGRAMMED for), the PCM is "lost", because command AFR is WAY too rich for a NB HEGO to read at all. So you run the very real risk of grenading the engine due to lean AFRs and/or excessive knock due to incorrect spark timing.

The way I understand it, a WB equipped PCM/ECM will use this sensor even DURING WOT to verify that the AFR is correct for "WOT". The MAF may very well run off the map, but we could possibally rely on the WB and eliminate all the messing around with flashes, stand alone ECUs, etc.

I don't know, COULD it work?

Aseras

it might work but the one time it doesn't work is when you do grenade the engine.. especially in the open to closed loop switchover areas.. also the engine is likely to enrich the **** out of the afr. that's the whole point of the tables. they need to be ajusted as everything is going to change. timing will need to be changed. spark firing will need to change too. there are also other routines in the pcm that will need to be removed or bypassed.. like the save the cat feature...

ModMech

I understand that, but how far off the end of the MAF range will this be. If not way far, and most MAFs will flow lots more than the engine can, 100% load is still 100% load.

IAT affacts timing, so increased inlet temps will cause spark retard = GOOD.

At 100% load the PCM wants a specific AFR, the WB is the feedback to verify the correct fuel rate. Unless you NEED a different AFR with the AFSC, the factory setting should be ok (but I do not know what that setting is, so it well be too lean).

When you really tune a car by programming, all you do is specify different values. If the factory values are ok, but the MAF runs off the end a little, that should not be any real problem given the WB.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

The WB feedback doesn't do anything when you are running in open loop - as what happens during WOT, or anthing other than light throttle openings or light cruise. Target AFR is only used in closed loop.

The potential problem will be when the airflow exceeds that of the range of the MAF, and the MAF has reached it peak voltage. More airflow will not make more volts, unless a different (bigger) MAF is used, in which case the PCM needs to be re-calibrated for the different MAF. There is also the question of the MAF being a restriction during these higher flow conditions.

Cheers,
Hymee.