New-gen Mazda rotary nears
04-18-2010, 07:51 PM
#26
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The only "chatter" is all the yokels out here in the peanut gallery.
Mazda has always had a "back room" where stuff brewed. But the samurai are almost all gone and the current corporate philosophy at Mazda - the very thing that made them profitable for the first time in a long time and ultimately independent from Ford - is gonna keep them on the straight and narrow.
Things like the 16x are, obviously, completely at odds with the current automotive climate and the desired outputs (especially in the eyes of the fans) are, largely, at odds with the laws of physics.
We live in the world of the ULEV, 300+ HP, 28 MPG, sub-$35k, low-maintenance sportscar.
There will never be such an animal with a rotary motor for a heart and Mazda knows from previous experience that a $40k+ two-seater with 30% less power and fuel economy than its competition is suicide.
With cars like the BMW 335i and the G37 lurking out there, Mazda needs to stick with thrifty, fun and cheap cars like the 3 and 5 to keep its head above water. (Just like Nissan and Toyota stay out of the roadster market - its too small for more than one manufacturer to make a profit and Mazda already has it tied up.)
Mazda has always had a "back room" where stuff brewed. But the samurai are almost all gone and the current corporate philosophy at Mazda - the very thing that made them profitable for the first time in a long time and ultimately independent from Ford - is gonna keep them on the straight and narrow.
Things like the 16x are, obviously, completely at odds with the current automotive climate and the desired outputs (especially in the eyes of the fans) are, largely, at odds with the laws of physics.
We live in the world of the ULEV, 300+ HP, 28 MPG, sub-$35k, low-maintenance sportscar.
There will never be such an animal with a rotary motor for a heart and Mazda knows from previous experience that a $40k+ two-seater with 30% less power and fuel economy than its competition is suicide.
With cars like the BMW 335i and the G37 lurking out there, Mazda needs to stick with thrifty, fun and cheap cars like the 3 and 5 to keep its head above water. (Just like Nissan and Toyota stay out of the roadster market - its too small for more than one manufacturer to make a profit and Mazda already has it tied up.)
04-18-2010, 08:06 PM
#27
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I have to agree that the bar has been seriously raised since the RX8 came to life in 2003. The RX8 was my first rotary car and I do not regret my purchase what so ever even with the quirks and challenges it has brought.
However, since that time I know my own automotive experience has matured and I can't help but notice the higher powered vehicles that, as MazdaManiac has pointed out, are much better rounded with lower costs of care and better fuel economy. I still believe the overall feel and connection to the driver with these vehicles is in question.
All of this is speculation but it's obvious that Mazda is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They clearly have to produce a vehicle which measures up to the competition because relying on rotary fans to carry the new car isn't feasible. Simply producing something that is on par with the RX8 won't pass the smell test. However, Mazda cannot simply pull the rabbit out of the hat with regards to the technology challenges of fuel economy and power. As such, recouping major R&D costs in the form of a $40,000+ vehicle is suicide.
I would love to see a rotary car that would fulfill all out expectations with a price tag that is on par with the performance. I'm not holding my breath.
However, since that time I know my own automotive experience has matured and I can't help but notice the higher powered vehicles that, as MazdaManiac has pointed out, are much better rounded with lower costs of care and better fuel economy. I still believe the overall feel and connection to the driver with these vehicles is in question.
All of this is speculation but it's obvious that Mazda is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They clearly have to produce a vehicle which measures up to the competition because relying on rotary fans to carry the new car isn't feasible. Simply producing something that is on par with the RX8 won't pass the smell test. However, Mazda cannot simply pull the rabbit out of the hat with regards to the technology challenges of fuel economy and power. As such, recouping major R&D costs in the form of a $40,000+ vehicle is suicide.
I would love to see a rotary car that would fulfill all out expectations with a price tag that is on par with the performance. I'm not holding my breath.
04-18-2010, 08:10 PM
#28
No, they don't.
Various "news" outlets take comments from various people at Mazda who suggest that they want a rotary car in the lineup or that they are aware of development and they blow this smoke up the asses of the collective rotary fans who then regurgitate it as gospel.
I do? Thus far, even Mazda has "underestimated" the 16x and have pointed out that they are "off target" in every respect of the motor's development.
That aside, the motor would have to provide a real-world 25+ MPG and 330+ HP and 250+ ft/lbs for it to see the light of day wile maintaining VLEV or ULEV status.
A rotary motor will never do that.
Indeed. Which is why it won't see the light of day.
Exactly. And a rotary-powered Mazda doesn't stand a chance against those vehicles. Really, it never did. Only the enthusiast segment realize the potential of the SE3P chassis.
The G35 always out-sold it.
Have you been paying attention?
You just described the RX-8. Yet, there is a reason the RX-8 has sold half as many units in each successive year since its introduction.
Compare the RX-8's sales numbers to it competition. Now its fuel economy. Now its emissions.
Don't get me wrong - I love the chassis. But in its totally stock configuration, its only selling point to the masses is that it is a "cute sportscar".
How sad is it that a Hyundai is a better choice in this market segment in almost every way?
We here - the enthusiasts - don't make a fraction of a fraction of a percent in total auto sales world-wide. Yet we are a fairly large part of Mazda's current customer base. They cannot sustain that in the current market.
If they are going to take advantage of the weaknesses of Toyota and the American brands, they are going to have to bet heavily on the cars that put them back on the map in recent years.
Various "news" outlets take comments from various people at Mazda who suggest that they want a rotary car in the lineup or that they are aware of development and they blow this smoke up the asses of the collective rotary fans who then regurgitate it as gospel.
I do? Thus far, even Mazda has "underestimated" the 16x and have pointed out that they are "off target" in every respect of the motor's development.
That aside, the motor would have to provide a real-world 25+ MPG and 330+ HP and 250+ ft/lbs for it to see the light of day wile maintaining VLEV or ULEV status.
A rotary motor will never do that.
The G35 always out-sold it.
You just described the RX-8. Yet, there is a reason the RX-8 has sold half as many units in each successive year since its introduction.
Compare the RX-8's sales numbers to it competition. Now its fuel economy. Now its emissions.
Don't get me wrong - I love the chassis. But in its totally stock configuration, its only selling point to the masses is that it is a "cute sportscar".
How sad is it that a Hyundai is a better choice in this market segment in almost every way?
We here - the enthusiasts - don't make a fraction of a fraction of a percent in total auto sales world-wide. Yet we are a fairly large part of Mazda's current customer base. They cannot sustain that in the current market.
If they are going to take advantage of the weaknesses of Toyota and the American brands, they are going to have to bet heavily on the cars that put them back on the map in recent years.
04-18-2010, 08:14 PM
#29
Momentum Keeps Me Going
1) Design the next gen lightweight MX5 chassis to fit the 16x (if the 16x can be actually done)
2) Put the redesigned RX-8 body on that chassis.
3) Juice up the amenities/chassis/interior to suit the required Rx-8 price
But yea, beyond that, MM as it about right...sadly.
Last edited by Spin9k; 04-18-2010 at 08:18 PM.
04-18-2010, 09:20 PM
#30
Even if it were that simple, would you be as happy with a Nissan-esque reskin of an existing tub?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
04-18-2010, 10:48 PM
#31
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No, they don't.
Various "news" outlets take comments from various people at Mazda who suggest that they want a rotary car in the lineup or that they are aware of development and they blow this smoke up the asses of the collective rotary fans who then regurgitate it as gospel.
I do? Thus far, even Mazda has "underestimated" the 16x and have pointed out that they are "off target" in every respect of the motor's development.
That aside, the motor would have to provide a real-world 25+ MPG and 330+ HP and 250+ ft/lbs for it to see the light of day wile maintaining VLEV or ULEV status.
A rotary motor will never do that.
Indeed. Which is why it won't see the light of day.
Exactly. And a rotary-powered Mazda doesn't stand a chance against those vehicles. Really, it never did. Only the enthusiast segment realize the potential of the SE3P chassis.
The G35 always out-sold it.
Have you been paying attention?
You just described the RX-8. Yet, there is a reason the RX-8 has sold half as many units in each successive year since its introduction.
Compare the RX-8's sales numbers to it competition. Now its fuel economy. Now its emissions.
Don't get me wrong - I love the chassis. But in its totally stock configuration, its only selling point to the masses is that it is a "cute sportscar".
How sad is it that a Hyundai is a better choice in this market segment in almost every way?
We here - the enthusiasts - don't make a fraction of a fraction of a percent in total auto sales world-wide. Yet we are a fairly large part of Mazda's current customer base. They cannot sustain that in the current market.
If they are going to take advantage of the weaknesses of Toyota and the American brands, they are going to have to bet heavily on the cars that put them back on the map in recent years.
Various "news" outlets take comments from various people at Mazda who suggest that they want a rotary car in the lineup or that they are aware of development and they blow this smoke up the asses of the collective rotary fans who then regurgitate it as gospel.
I do? Thus far, even Mazda has "underestimated" the 16x and have pointed out that they are "off target" in every respect of the motor's development.
That aside, the motor would have to provide a real-world 25+ MPG and 330+ HP and 250+ ft/lbs for it to see the light of day wile maintaining VLEV or ULEV status.
A rotary motor will never do that.
Indeed. Which is why it won't see the light of day.
Exactly. And a rotary-powered Mazda doesn't stand a chance against those vehicles. Really, it never did. Only the enthusiast segment realize the potential of the SE3P chassis.
The G35 always out-sold it.
Have you been paying attention?
You just described the RX-8. Yet, there is a reason the RX-8 has sold half as many units in each successive year since its introduction.
Compare the RX-8's sales numbers to it competition. Now its fuel economy. Now its emissions.
Don't get me wrong - I love the chassis. But in its totally stock configuration, its only selling point to the masses is that it is a "cute sportscar".
How sad is it that a Hyundai is a better choice in this market segment in almost every way?
We here - the enthusiasts - don't make a fraction of a fraction of a percent in total auto sales world-wide. Yet we are a fairly large part of Mazda's current customer base. They cannot sustain that in the current market.
If they are going to take advantage of the weaknesses of Toyota and the American brands, they are going to have to bet heavily on the cars that put them back on the map in recent years.
04-18-2010, 11:07 PM
#32
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Even if it were that simple, would you be as happy with a Nissan-esque reskin of an existing tub?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
04-19-2010, 01:11 AM
#33
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Makes me sad.
I believe something else will come out just not what everyone wants. Like the rx8 how many true rx7 owners like the rx8? VERY few do. they like the way it looks, and handles, but reality hurts.
I lined up with a Fc turbo 2 owner who said "I like the rx8, but i love my turbo rx7"
I believe something else will come out just not what everyone wants. Like the rx8 how many true rx7 owners like the rx8? VERY few do. they like the way it looks, and handles, but reality hurts.
I lined up with a Fc turbo 2 owner who said "I like the rx8, but i love my turbo rx7"
04-19-2010, 02:43 AM
#34
MM, why would the RX8 make less HP than the Miata?
I like what Spin9k is suggesting. There already seems to be very little rationale for Mazda to make a new rotary car. People are saying it needs to have more HP, accelerate faster, be lighter, and seat more than 2 people (otherwise it can't compete with other 2-seat sports cars). Yet if it seats 4 people, it won't be light enough to offset the relatively low HP of the 16x as compared to the piston engine competition.
So among all the scenarios that don't make much sense, the scenario of a 2-seater sharing virtually the exact same platform as the Miata (rather than an extended version) seems to make the most sense. Lighter than the competition, its power-to-weight ratio would help it accelerate as fast as the competition while getting acceptable gas mileage for a sports car. To distance it from the Miata, Mazda might make the rotary purely a coupe while offering the Miata as a soft top or power retractable hard top. Maybe suspension, drive train, etc, would be beefed up.
MM asks would the difference from the Miata be enough? To me, it would be. Otherwise I think MM would be right that the days of the rotary are past.
I like what Spin9k is suggesting. There already seems to be very little rationale for Mazda to make a new rotary car. People are saying it needs to have more HP, accelerate faster, be lighter, and seat more than 2 people (otherwise it can't compete with other 2-seat sports cars). Yet if it seats 4 people, it won't be light enough to offset the relatively low HP of the 16x as compared to the piston engine competition.
So among all the scenarios that don't make much sense, the scenario of a 2-seater sharing virtually the exact same platform as the Miata (rather than an extended version) seems to make the most sense. Lighter than the competition, its power-to-weight ratio would help it accelerate as fast as the competition while getting acceptable gas mileage for a sports car. To distance it from the Miata, Mazda might make the rotary purely a coupe while offering the Miata as a soft top or power retractable hard top. Maybe suspension, drive train, etc, would be beefed up.
MM asks would the difference from the Miata be enough? To me, it would be. Otherwise I think MM would be right that the days of the rotary are past.
Last edited by ArXate; 04-19-2010 at 02:47 AM.
04-19-2010, 03:41 AM
#35
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Look since the Oil Price Spike a few years ago, everything change for the Rotary, some would forgive it thirstiness, but not now, no longer, it just has limited appeal at 24 MPG.
Having said that, I would NEVER put a Mazda and a Hyundai in the same category.
I know you US guys are ALL about POWER, in the real world (lol, no offense), power is not everything particularly when you can't even use it, Camera fines have killed much of our Motoring enjoyment here and in Europe.
That is why the Miata as a Sports Car HAS re-written the books, because Power is not everything.
IMO the Rotaries FUTURE is in a Dual Mode capacity, either Fuel or Rotary Electric Hybrid, even Audi are playing with it.
Personally, I just do not know, Mazda may be waiting a LONG time for the US economy to really bounce back, but when it does, IMO it will still be a lot different, car owners will not accept 24 MPG anymore in ANY mass produced car.
God, I just love my car...even with it's little power it has more than enough get up and go for me, there are not than many cars that overtake me, even from the stop lights.
Yes, it is a no brainer that ANY new Mazda sports car will share platforms.
I think a new rotary will be the 13B not 16X.
Remember the Rotary Engine has ALWAYS been in production for Mazda in the past 40 years, it will continue over the next 3 years even if it is no longer exported outside of Japan...like the FD RX-7.
IMO it has been the packaging (4 seats and doors) that has SOLD the RX-8, unfortunately the price of GAS has once again Damaged the Rotary like in the 1970's.
But HELL the RX-8 has just SO MUCH CHARACTER, it is a Real Pity that so many have not experienced it, they would rather listed to those who think they know about them.
Having said that, I would NEVER put a Mazda and a Hyundai in the same category.
I know you US guys are ALL about POWER, in the real world (lol, no offense), power is not everything particularly when you can't even use it, Camera fines have killed much of our Motoring enjoyment here and in Europe.
That is why the Miata as a Sports Car HAS re-written the books, because Power is not everything.
IMO the Rotaries FUTURE is in a Dual Mode capacity, either Fuel or Rotary Electric Hybrid, even Audi are playing with it.
Personally, I just do not know, Mazda may be waiting a LONG time for the US economy to really bounce back, but when it does, IMO it will still be a lot different, car owners will not accept 24 MPG anymore in ANY mass produced car.
God, I just love my car...even with it's little power it has more than enough get up and go for me, there are not than many cars that overtake me, even from the stop lights.
Yes, it is a no brainer that ANY new Mazda sports car will share platforms.
I think a new rotary will be the 13B not 16X.
Remember the Rotary Engine has ALWAYS been in production for Mazda in the past 40 years, it will continue over the next 3 years even if it is no longer exported outside of Japan...like the FD RX-7.
IMO it has been the packaging (4 seats and doors) that has SOLD the RX-8, unfortunately the price of GAS has once again Damaged the Rotary like in the 1970's.
But HELL the RX-8 has just SO MUCH CHARACTER, it is a Real Pity that so many have not experienced it, they would rather listed to those who think they know about them.
04-19-2010, 04:52 AM
#36
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I was just starting to save money for the next rotary car and now this, seems like my money will go to buying a Toyota FT-86 assuming Toyota doesn't sink. Agreed with MM, the rotary just couldn't keep up with emission standards and mpg of competitors.
04-19-2010, 06:41 AM
#37
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Even if it were that simple, would you be as happy with a Nissan-esque reskin of an existing tub?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
The RX-8 is what it is because it is almost entirely bespoke.
A redressed Miata is still just that - a Miata.
How depressing would it be to drive around in a car that is more expensive than a Miata - even though it site on the chassis of one - yet makes less power and gets worse mileage?
I was thinking more along these lines of what ORX-800 was up to....
04-19-2010, 11:37 AM
#39
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Obviously a lot of this is speculation and guesswork.
I can think of at least one way that Mazda could be serious about continuing to develop rotary engines even though they do not expect to see good sales of [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be]. That's the hydrogen rotary, which seems like a very cost-effective way of developing and building a H2 engine, and which could appear in many models other than [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be]. Hell, the first mention I've seen of the hydrogen rotary was in some kind of minivan/MPV.
If the economy doesn't pick up, the [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be] might be a couple of years away from the market. The more time passes, the greater the chance that that car might burn hydrogen instead of petrol. I don't think I would mind.
I can think of at least one way that Mazda could be serious about continuing to develop rotary engines even though they do not expect to see good sales of [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be]. That's the hydrogen rotary, which seems like a very cost-effective way of developing and building a H2 engine, and which could appear in many models other than [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be]. Hell, the first mention I've seen of the hydrogen rotary was in some kind of minivan/MPV.
If the economy doesn't pick up, the [successor-to-RX8-whatever-that-turns-out-to-be] might be a couple of years away from the market. The more time passes, the greater the chance that that car might burn hydrogen instead of petrol. I don't think I would mind.
04-19-2010, 12:45 PM
#41
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Didn't the hydrogen rotary get even WORSE economy than the standard Renesis, along with less than half the power? Who, pray tell, would buy such an automotive abortion?
04-19-2010, 02:39 PM
#42
Right now, the extraction of gasoline from coal is very expensive and very dirty. But, as you say, we have a LOT of it and the infrastructure for extracting it already exists. It'll just take a complete collapse of the oil supply to get industry behind it.
Hydrogen, besides being an awful fuel, simply isn't practical.
Hydrogen, besides being an awful fuel, simply isn't practical.
04-19-2010, 03:40 PM
#43
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If Mazda can make the 16X with 60 more real world hp and say 50 more lbs, lower the weight by 100-200 lbs, and get mileage up a couple more, convince people to buy a rotaary, (that would mean advertising), and make it more reliable then they may have a seller on their hands.
That's a lot of hurdles to overcome. What makes it worse is the variable that concerns enthusiasts least is the one that's mandated. I could care less about fuel economy. If someone told me I could have my existing engine with 50 more miles per gallon or my engine with 50 more hp/torque and the same mileage, I'd take the power.
That's a lot of hurdles to overcome. What makes it worse is the variable that concerns enthusiasts least is the one that's mandated. I could care less about fuel economy. If someone told me I could have my existing engine with 50 more miles per gallon or my engine with 50 more hp/torque and the same mileage, I'd take the power.
04-19-2010, 03:48 PM
#44
More like 400 lbs
At LEAST 8 MPG. Won't happen, especially with an even bigger motor.
Historically, Mazda's advertising has been dismal, absent and entirely off-target and "un-cool".
It would take some serious introspection on their part to find an outside ad company with the correct vision.
I'm betting it won't happen.
Seemingly inherently impossible.
04-19-2010, 05:05 PM
#46
Hmm. Maybe every other OE in the business?
What other production motor gets such low power, reliability and economy with such high emissions as the rotary?
Even compared to the other motors in Mazda's stable the rotary is, despite its "cool factor", archaic.
What other production motor gets such low power, reliability and economy with such high emissions as the rotary?
Even compared to the other motors in Mazda's stable the rotary is, despite its "cool factor", archaic.
04-19-2010, 05:24 PM
#48
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04-19-2010, 05:38 PM
#49
A multitude of reasons.
Starting a rotary isn't a simple thing and the transition in and out of gas power would be difficult.
Not to mention that during normal driving, there is just enough torque to sustain motion, let alone running a dynamo to charge the batteries.
Starting a rotary isn't a simple thing and the transition in and out of gas power would be difficult.
Not to mention that during normal driving, there is just enough torque to sustain motion, let alone running a dynamo to charge the batteries.
