Trade in for BRZ
05-09-2012, 06:59 AM
#26
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Yeah I'll pass. I do like the looks, but they don't say "Wow" to me. And if they don't now, they certainly won't 4-5 years from now. The RX-8...well in 2004 it did make me say "Wow" (even more than the FDs did when I first saw them) and I have to say, I still think the looks on this car are fresh...almost 8 years later.
Not sure I buy into nycgps's claims that "it will handle the twisties just as good as Rx-8". It may have a firmer feel (stock), but I dunno. Not sold.
It's gonna be 30K to buy anything that I would want, with options. Too steep for me for what I feel I'm getting.
Yeah, just doesn't feel like a step up. I can't even say it feels like a step over either. Feels more like a minor step back for me. Pass.
Not sure I buy into nycgps's claims that "it will handle the twisties just as good as Rx-8". It may have a firmer feel (stock), but I dunno. Not sold.
It's gonna be 30K to buy anything that I would want, with options. Too steep for me for what I feel I'm getting.
Yeah, just doesn't feel like a step up. I can't even say it feels like a step over either. Feels more like a minor step back for me. Pass.
05-09-2012, 08:15 AM
#27
I've owned 5 911s and one Boxster over the years, so I've tinkered with a few boxer engines.
On the 986/996 Porsche an intake is nearly worthless, ECU tune is nearly worthless, and a full high-flow exhaust (header, cat, muffler) is worth maybe 8 HP.
Most modern engines do not leave anywhere near that much HP on the table. Aftermarket manufacturers may CLAIM that much HP gain, but typically the dyno does not agree. These things are so highly tuned to optimize HP and MPG that there just isn't that much to gain without major work. Just stop and think about it for a minute - do you really think that an aftermarket manufacturer has the same amount of engineering prowess that Subaru and Toyota do?
Wait until they do a turbo version, THEN talk to me about the aftermarket. 80-100 HP with bolt-ons and a tune is more compelling than 8-10.
On the 986/996 Porsche an intake is nearly worthless, ECU tune is nearly worthless, and a full high-flow exhaust (header, cat, muffler) is worth maybe 8 HP. Most modern engines do not leave anywhere near that much HP on the table. Aftermarket manufacturers may CLAIM that much HP gain, but typically the dyno does not agree. These things are so highly tuned to optimize HP and MPG that there just isn't that much to gain without major work. Just stop and think about it for a minute - do you really think that an aftermarket manufacturer has the same amount of engineering prowess that Subaru and Toyota do?
Wait until they do a turbo version, THEN talk to me about the aftermarket. 80-100 HP with bolt-ons and a tune is more compelling than 8-10.
of course Porsche don't care, durability is never their major concern.
its time for you to look at some Subaru ?
they already said there will be no turbo version, simply because at their current engine location, there is no room to fit a turbo charger.
Aftermarket is different tho, they will try every single thing to fit even just a bolt down there, have to wait and see
Do they have that much money ? of course not, but I'm sure most of them are more than capable of push a few dozen of those engines till it blows to find their limits, isn't that enough ? That's how HKS did with their GT550, GT600, GT800, and now GT1000 kit for GT-R. mpg is NEVER aftermarket's concern, reliability is (somewhat), and it's usually not that hard to archive, U need a really good tune.
Last edited by nycgps; 05-09-2012 at 08:33 AM.
05-09-2012, 10:42 AM
#28
Subaru is a bit different, their Boxer engines usually are detune for reliability, so they respond better to mods.
of course Porsche don't care, durability is never their major concern.
its time for you to look at some Subaru ?
they already said there will be no turbo version, simply because at their current engine location, there is no room to fit a turbo charger.
Aftermarket is different tho, they will try every single thing to fit even just a bolt down there, have to wait and see
Do they have that much money ? of course not, but I'm sure most of them are more than capable of push a few dozen of those engines till it blows to find their limits, isn't that enough ? That's how HKS did with their GT550, GT600, GT800, and now GT1000 kit for GT-R. mpg is NEVER aftermarket's concern, reliability is (somewhat), and it's usually not that hard to archive, U need a really good tune.
of course Porsche don't care, durability is never their major concern.
its time for you to look at some Subaru ?
they already said there will be no turbo version, simply because at their current engine location, there is no room to fit a turbo charger.
Aftermarket is different tho, they will try every single thing to fit even just a bolt down there, have to wait and see
Do they have that much money ? of course not, but I'm sure most of them are more than capable of push a few dozen of those engines till it blows to find their limits, isn't that enough ? That's how HKS did with their GT550, GT600, GT800, and now GT1000 kit for GT-R. mpg is NEVER aftermarket's concern, reliability is (somewhat), and it's usually not that hard to archive, U need a really good tune.
Regarding Porsche, I'd suggest you do a little research on the marque. They have a history of dominating endurance racing, which requires reliability in addition to performance. My Porsches were some of the most reliable cars that I've owned.
Regardless, the argument doesn't hold much water. $30000 BRZ + $6000 turbo kit + $1000 exhaust + $500 intake + $1500 custom tune + $1500 coilovers. In the end you have a $42000 investment for a car that still isn't as fast or handle as well as many cars that you can buy for less money.
05-09-2012, 11:13 AM
#30
People have tried tuning the Subaru 2.5i, and they get about 10hp.
The BRZ has a naturally aspirated engine making nearly 100hp per liter. There just isn't much left in it.
Comparing this car to Subaru's turbo engines...
The BRZ has a naturally aspirated engine making nearly 100hp per liter. There just isn't much left in it.
Comparing this car to Subaru's turbo engines...
05-09-2012, 01:05 PM
#31
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100hp/liter. If that's the case, how much are S2000 owners getting our of their F22s with mods? Surely 300bhp is not too farfetched? Maybe this will be the case for the BRZ.
Also, the BRZ / FR-S is running Prius tires as per several reviews. Makes me wonder how that handling will do with econo-tires.
Also, the BRZ / FR-S is running Prius tires as per several reviews. Makes me wonder how that handling will do with econo-tires.
05-09-2012, 01:22 PM
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05-09-2012, 02:22 PM
#34
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Agreed, it won't happen.
Just refining how people are thinking about it. Early discussions on FT86Club were taking the known values from 2.0L boxer engines and peak specific torque output, theorizing on the RPM limit, and landing at 200hp every time, which is what it ended up with.
There won't be many NA gains to be had with it...
Just refining how people are thinking about it. Early discussions on FT86Club were taking the known values from 2.0L boxer engines and peak specific torque output, theorizing on the RPM limit, and landing at 200hp every time, which is what it ended up with.
There won't be many NA gains to be had with it...
05-09-2012, 02:39 PM
#35
Momentum Keeps Me Going
05-09-2012, 02:40 PM
#36
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Sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with that. Yeah the CoG is lower by an absolute standard, but it's a smaller car overall in most (all?) dimensions. Also the weight distribution is more like 55/45 front/rear. Lastly the front suspension is macpherson strut instead of double wishbone. Not sure how you can conclude it'll handle just as well as the RX-8 considering those. In a long sweeper I don't think there's any way the BRZ will keep up with the RX-8 if they're on the same tires.
05-09-2012, 03:44 PM
#37
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In what universe is a slightly front-heavy, front engined car better balanced that a slightly rear-heavy mid engined car? Have you seen a lotus elise or a cayman go through a slalom, chicane, or about any corner on a race track?
Front heavy is not well balanced. 50/50 to slight rearward is generally optimal in a sports car.
Front heavy is not well balanced. 50/50 to slight rearward is generally optimal in a sports car.
05-09-2012, 03:59 PM
#38
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Arguing "better" (a subjective term) in regards to weight balance (a subjective term as it is relatively easy to move the balance around, especially for race cars) is rather pointless.
Some drivers will prefer a different balance over other drivers. Doesn't make either "Better"
Some drivers will prefer a different balance over other drivers. Doesn't make either "Better"
05-13-2012, 05:42 AM
#40
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Checked out a BRZ in person at NJMP yesterday. Larger of a car than I originally anticipated. Low, certainly, but wider and longer. I still think the dimensions work will with the looks.
05-16-2012, 09:23 PM
#43
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Hay! I'm just playing Devils advocate here.
If one looks at reviews, I'm just repeating their claims of better balance.
No matter what the reviews say or tests at Motor Trend ect...One still needs to test the car for themselves.
The point is... I think it will be justified to do your own road test.
I test cars ever year. I even test cars before they are released to the public.
I actually enjoy road testing cars.
If one looks at reviews, I'm just repeating their claims of better balance.
No matter what the reviews say or tests at Motor Trend ect...One still needs to test the car for themselves.
The point is... I think it will be justified to do your own road test.
I test cars ever year. I even test cars before they are released to the public.
I actually enjoy road testing cars.
05-18-2012, 08:07 AM
#47
Rockie Mountain Newbie
Here's the link to that Car and Driver article, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
I'm still reading it, so I can't comment on it yet.
Sorry, that's an older article.
It mentions the RX-8 in passing, saying that its COG height rivals the RX-8.
There are some funny lines in the article, that got a couple chuckles out of me, mostly centered around the writers opinions of offering a sports car with an automatic transmission.
So, hopefully, there's a newer, better article out there, waiting for its turn to hit the internet.
BC.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
I'm still reading it, so I can't comment on it yet.
Sorry, that's an older article.
It mentions the RX-8 in passing, saying that its COG height rivals the RX-8.
There are some funny lines in the article, that got a couple chuckles out of me, mostly centered around the writers opinions of offering a sports car with an automatic transmission.
So, hopefully, there's a newer, better article out there, waiting for its turn to hit the internet.
BC.
Last edited by Bladecutter; 05-18-2012 at 08:19 AM.
05-18-2012, 08:25 AM
#48
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