Trade in for BRZ
05-23-2012, 11:10 PM
#51
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The K series engines seem to have much more tuning potential.
To get a 300HP F20/F22, you'd need a fully race built engine, bored & stroked, cams, stiffer valve springs, ported & polished heads, forged pistons & crank, with the redline raised to 10,000 or more, running on 100+ octane race gas.
It's not as though the BRZ is lacking in power though. At 2760 pounds, the BRZ is about 10% lighter than the RX-8, so having 15% less power (and only 5% less torque) isn't that big a deficit.
05-23-2012, 11:13 PM
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My opinion exactly. I'll definitely check out the BRZ when it comes out, but I can't see myself pulling the trigger...and the wheels on that car look horrible anyway.
Last edited by 77mjd; 05-23-2012 at 11:16 PM.
05-24-2012, 04:52 PM
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I see a lot of strong opinions about how fast the BRZ is from people whom I am certain have not driven one yet, let alone in a competitive setting.
It does not have 50/50 balance, as someone stated. It is slightly front heavy, as shown by the specs on either the Scion or Subaru web site.
I don't want to know what you've got to be smoking to think that the car is a new version of the tC.
It does not have 50/50 balance, as someone stated. It is slightly front heavy, as shown by the specs on either the Scion or Subaru web site.
I don't want to know what you've got to be smoking to think that the car is a new version of the tC.
05-24-2012, 10:35 PM
#54
Mu ha.. ha...
Thread Starter
The thing that gets me is the price. It's way too high. 28k plus tax.
For a few more dollars get a Z or BMW or something else.
You get a tremendous amount for a few more dollars.
If it was 24k out the door then it would be priced right and very appealing.
For a few more dollars get a Z or BMW or something else.
You get a tremendous amount for a few more dollars.
If it was 24k out the door then it would be priced right and very appealing.
05-25-2012, 08:52 AM
#55
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I'll play Devil's Advocate on that question:
Why a BRZ/FRS over a BMW?
Simple:
The only BMW in that price range is the 128i, for $31k, and after test driving one in the stock suspension with a manual transmission, I can say it felt exactly like a Camry in the way it drove. So much for being the "Ultimate Driving Machine, wouldn't you say?
You want it to handle better? You HAVE to order the Sport Package. So now your price is up to $32500. God forbid you actually want the car to be painted in a color, because that's an extra $550. Oh, and there's no way for you to get a limited slip differential.
Oh, and the car only has 30 more hp.
I don't even think its direct injected.
But its smooth, and the rear seats can actually have humans back there, but they have NOTHING to hold onto if the driver finds a nice twisty road, and puts the car through its paces.
Then there's the increased fuel, insurance, and hatred on the road costs of being another BMW driving tool, even if you aren't actually a tool. That's what people will think of you as you slice through traffic, enjoying your drive.
And eventually, if you keep the ar long enough, you might want to put mods on the car, which cost more, since its a premium German Brand. Oh, and lets not even talk about long term ownership costs after you get out of free maintenance and warranty periods.
Now, for the Z car.
This party starts at $32k.
It doesn't handle as naturally, or as well as the twins do, but, you have a ton more power to make up for that lacking, hence why the track times are going to be so much better. To get a limited slip differential, you have to pony up an extra $3030 for the Sport Package, sending your Z car into the $35k range.
But then, you look at things like having the extra space to feel more comfortable in either the drivers or passengers seats in the twins, and that beats out the Z, if you are daily driving, or going on a long, cross country trip.
The engine and manual transmission in the Z are raw and not the best in the market for smoothness, but they get the job done. Oh, and if you take the Z to the track, and run it at track pace, the car will cook its brakes, and throw you into a wall. So now you need a new car.
This car, unlike the Twins or the BMW, doesn't come with any free maintenance, so you have to pay those costs out of pocket. The tires are larger and more expensive to replace, and even more so if you pony up for the Sport Package to get the LSD and the "better" brakes.
So, there you go.
Reasons not to spend the money on a BMW or a Z car instead of the Twins.
BC.
Why a BRZ/FRS over a BMW?
Simple:
The only BMW in that price range is the 128i, for $31k, and after test driving one in the stock suspension with a manual transmission, I can say it felt exactly like a Camry in the way it drove. So much for being the "Ultimate Driving Machine, wouldn't you say?
You want it to handle better? You HAVE to order the Sport Package. So now your price is up to $32500. God forbid you actually want the car to be painted in a color, because that's an extra $550. Oh, and there's no way for you to get a limited slip differential.
Oh, and the car only has 30 more hp.
I don't even think its direct injected.
But its smooth, and the rear seats can actually have humans back there, but they have NOTHING to hold onto if the driver finds a nice twisty road, and puts the car through its paces.
Then there's the increased fuel, insurance, and hatred on the road costs of being another BMW driving tool, even if you aren't actually a tool. That's what people will think of you as you slice through traffic, enjoying your drive.
And eventually, if you keep the ar long enough, you might want to put mods on the car, which cost more, since its a premium German Brand. Oh, and lets not even talk about long term ownership costs after you get out of free maintenance and warranty periods.
Now, for the Z car.
This party starts at $32k.
It doesn't handle as naturally, or as well as the twins do, but, you have a ton more power to make up for that lacking, hence why the track times are going to be so much better. To get a limited slip differential, you have to pony up an extra $3030 for the Sport Package, sending your Z car into the $35k range.
But then, you look at things like having the extra space to feel more comfortable in either the drivers or passengers seats in the twins, and that beats out the Z, if you are daily driving, or going on a long, cross country trip.
The engine and manual transmission in the Z are raw and not the best in the market for smoothness, but they get the job done. Oh, and if you take the Z to the track, and run it at track pace, the car will cook its brakes, and throw you into a wall. So now you need a new car.
This car, unlike the Twins or the BMW, doesn't come with any free maintenance, so you have to pay those costs out of pocket. The tires are larger and more expensive to replace, and even more so if you pony up for the Sport Package to get the LSD and the "better" brakes.
So, there you go.
Reasons not to spend the money on a BMW or a Z car instead of the Twins.
BC.
05-25-2012, 09:02 AM
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Down the road i'll probably take a look at a used Scion FR-S, it is basically the exact same thing as the BRZ but $3000 less.
For now, i'm keeping my 8, but in two years when its all paid off, i might be looking around and the FRS is intriguing, but i'll have to test drive it to see if i'm sold.
For now, i'm keeping my 8, but in two years when its all paid off, i might be looking around and the FRS is intriguing, but i'll have to test drive it to see if i'm sold.
05-25-2012, 09:19 AM
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Not sure where you are getting 28k from.
+1. There are always reasons why someone would select one seemingly inferior car over another. Always. We hate the Prius right? But yet, people still pick it over something we like every day. For those of you that dislike the FR-S/BRZ, why would this be any different?
It won't. They will sell them all, even if it's to an incredibly tiny slice of the population that others think are misguided morons.
Down the road i'll probably take a look at a used Scion FR-S, it is basically the exact same thing as the BRZ but $3000 less.
For now, i'm keeping my 8, but in two years when its all paid off, i might be looking around and the FRS is intriguing, but i'll have to test drive it to see if i'm sold.
For now, i'm keeping my 8, but in two years when its all paid off, i might be looking around and the FRS is intriguing, but i'll have to test drive it to see if i'm sold.
MSRP of the lowest trim BRZ: $25,495 http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/brz/index.html
Price difference? $565.
Top trims?
Adding every single possible option to get the cost as high as possible:
BRZ: $31,196
FR-S: $27,299
So now we have a $3,897 price difference. Though it's largely a matter of which has more options, or which options cost more. The BRZ's AT adds $1,100, where as the FR-S's AT adds $780. (I'd bet they are the same transmission) And trust me, most of what I added for the BRZ are NOT items that people would actually be adding enmass.
05-25-2012, 09:46 AM
#59
Mu ha.. ha...
Thread Starter
I do not think most of us are bashing it. It is a comparable car.
It depends how you feel. Are you comfortable in the drivers seat?
I had the best reliable Mitsu Eclispe. A 2002 GT model.
After a week it wasn't me. The looks never matched my 3000GT and the seats did not feel right.
I only put 3,500 miles on the car in 2 1/2 years. Never really liked it.
We have one of the best drivers car ever made. Excellent handling braking and comfort inside (unless your tall).
The question is:
What can we find that is equal or slightly better?
We really have to step up our expenditures by 8 to 10,000 dollars
So... if you feel comfortable behind the wheel, the BRZ will feel faster due to it's light weight and torque. The handling is relatively close. Then you have the magic gas mileage.
Our loss is something you once had that was great concerning a drivers car, plus the bonus of a back seat.
When you sit behind the wheel, the RX8 sold me plus the comfort of the seats.
Will the BRZ do the same for you?
It depends how you feel. Are you comfortable in the drivers seat?
I had the best reliable Mitsu Eclispe. A 2002 GT model.
After a week it wasn't me. The looks never matched my 3000GT and the seats did not feel right.
I only put 3,500 miles on the car in 2 1/2 years. Never really liked it.
We have one of the best drivers car ever made. Excellent handling braking and comfort inside (unless your tall).
The question is:
What can we find that is equal or slightly better?
We really have to step up our expenditures by 8 to 10,000 dollars
So... if you feel comfortable behind the wheel, the BRZ will feel faster due to it's light weight and torque. The handling is relatively close. Then you have the magic gas mileage.
Our loss is something you once had that was great concerning a drivers car, plus the bonus of a back seat.
When you sit behind the wheel, the RX8 sold me plus the comfort of the seats.
Will the BRZ do the same for you?
05-25-2012, 09:54 AM
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Agreed. That's what it's all about. For me, I really do like the BRZ, but I doubt I will actually ever pursue getting one because of the engine. I would miss the silky smooth of the rotary far too much. But, when it comes to needing a daily that gets ~30mpg or more, it certainly was on my list, because I would give up very little compared to my 8 (which I will still be keeping).
I note "was", because I ended up deciding on rebuilding my 99 Miata's engine (in progress) and then turbo'ing it for a grand total of less than half of a BRZ, without losing anything in the process, and not having to deal with a brand new engine in a brand new model in it's first year of introduction.
But, of the new car options I was looking at (~$30k or less, 30mpg or more, RWD or AWD, <3,100lbs, must be enjoyable and nimble), it is easily the cheapest without giving up much. The pricy-er 2012 Miata GT PRHT was only edging it out because of how cheap mods are for it, and how proven it is.
I note "was", because I ended up deciding on rebuilding my 99 Miata's engine (in progress) and then turbo'ing it for a grand total of less than half of a BRZ, without losing anything in the process, and not having to deal with a brand new engine in a brand new model in it's first year of introduction.
But, of the new car options I was looking at (~$30k or less, 30mpg or more, RWD or AWD, <3,100lbs, must be enjoyable and nimble), it is easily the cheapest without giving up much. The pricy-er 2012 Miata GT PRHT was only edging it out because of how cheap mods are for it, and how proven it is.
05-25-2012, 11:10 AM
#61
orly? Are you near Arizona? I can arrange for you a ride in a non race prepped, 400hp S2000, and that's conservatively tuned to be a DD.
05-25-2012, 11:17 AM
#62
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Classic car-bashing-weenie technique: take the worst case of every category for the car you don't like and compare to the best case of every category for the car you do. Maybe exaggerate a little on top. Whatever you do, don't let on that you're actually doing this.
For example, take the most expensive trim level of the BRZ and don't mention all the gadgets that it comes with as standard features, and compare the price to the price of the cheapest stripped down BMW and don't mention that you'll be paying extra for any color other than black or white, leather seats instead of plastic, navigation system, Xenon headlights, all of which come standard on the BRZ base model except for the seats (which are cloth on the base, and leather is standard on the Limited).
For example, take the most expensive trim level of the BRZ and don't mention all the gadgets that it comes with as standard features, and compare the price to the price of the cheapest stripped down BMW and don't mention that you'll be paying extra for any color other than black or white, leather seats instead of plastic, navigation system, Xenon headlights, all of which come standard on the BRZ base model except for the seats (which are cloth on the base, and leather is standard on the Limited).
05-25-2012, 11:24 AM
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But that's with forced induction, right? The discussion I was responding to was about what can be done with simple bolt-ons. I'll grant you that I should have said "or a turbocharger", but my core point was that 300HP is well beyond the realm of what you can get out of the car without some serious work.
05-25-2012, 11:25 AM
#64
But that's with forced induction, right? The discussion I was responding to was about what can be done with simple bolt-ons. I'll grant you that I should have said "or a turbocharger", but my core point was that 300HP is well beyond the realm of what you can get out of the car without some serious work.
Fair point.
05-25-2012, 12:29 PM
#65
I personally think the FRS/BRZ are going to be great cars, I really do. But what I don't understand is why some (both here and elsewhere) are treating them like the second coming of JC himself. From the euphoric posts of some here, you'd assume that there are RX8 owners (lightweight RWD momentum car) willing to give away their cars for a BRZ/FRS (lightweight RWD momentum car). The fact of the matter is, these are the closest thing you can buy to a new RX8. No other car on the market better embraces the RX8 philosophy of a lightweight, RWD, affordable scalpel that you can still drive daily. Both will have pros and cons, but I can't see why an RX8 owner would disparage their car in light of this new one.
As for competition, the under $30k and under arena has much more than just a 128i and 370Z. A few other semi-comparable new RWD cars:
Miata
Mustang - either 305 HP V6 or 420 HP V8
Genesis coupe - either 274 HP 4-cylinder or 348 HP V6
Camaro - 323 HP V6
Some obviously more similar than others. If it were me I'd spend my BRZ/FRS money on a used Porsche 911 (996.2 bodystyle) and be a happy man.
As for competition, the under $30k and under arena has much more than just a 128i and 370Z. A few other semi-comparable new RWD cars:
Miata
Mustang - either 305 HP V6 or 420 HP V8
Genesis coupe - either 274 HP 4-cylinder or 348 HP V6
Camaro - 323 HP V6
Some obviously more similar than others. If it were me I'd spend my BRZ/FRS money on a used Porsche 911 (996.2 bodystyle) and be a happy man.
05-25-2012, 02:05 PM
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As a possible explanation for the bonkers positive reaction to the car, I think people are just really happy to see a car maker try so hard to make a car that's light weight and focused on handling. The Miata is still hanging in there, but the MR2, RX-8, and S2000 are all gone. The Elise is going up-market and probably putting on some pounds. It's just nice to see that someone still believes that there is a niche to be filled.
05-25-2012, 04:19 PM
#68
Rockie Mountain Newbie
As for competition, the under $30k and under arena has much more than just a 128i and 370Z. A few other semi-comparable new RWD cars:
Miata
Mustang - either 305 HP V6 or 420 HP V8
Genesis coupe - either 274 HP 4-cylinder or 348 HP V6
Camaro - 323 HP V6
Some obviously more similar than others. If it were me I'd spend my BRZ/FRS money on a used Porsche 911 (996.2 bodystyle) and be a happy man.
Miata is underpowered, and due soon for a refresh. Good car to compare, as with a bit of cash, you can make it more powerful, and handle better.
Genesis Coupe is pretty much Hyundai's answer to the Z Car. Lots of power, not much room, not that much emphasis on handling prowess, lets use raw power to make up for handling deficiencies. If that's the kind of car you like, just like the Camaro and Mustang, you wouldn't even be looking at the Twins.
How about we ask this question instead:
If the Porsche Cayman was only $30k brand new, who here would buy one of the twins over the Cayman?
I certainly wouldn't.
BC.
05-25-2012, 07:59 PM
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First off, Mustang and Camaro are Muscle / Pony cars. They value high hp numbers over steering feel, by huge amounts. Last review I read on the Camaro was that it doesn't know what to do with a corner in the first place, even though it has an IRS. Plus, both of those cars are pushing the 3500 to 4000 lbs range. No matter what you do to the car, when it weighs that much, it handles like a vehicle that weighs that much.
Miata is underpowered, and due soon for a refresh. Good car to compare, as with a bit of cash, you can make it more powerful, and handle better.
Genesis Coupe is pretty much Hyundai's answer to the Z Car. Lots of power, not much room, not that much emphasis on handling prowess, lets use raw power to make up for handling deficiencies. If that's the kind of car you like, just like the Camaro and Mustang, you wouldn't even be looking at the Twins.
BC.
Miata is underpowered, and due soon for a refresh. Good car to compare, as with a bit of cash, you can make it more powerful, and handle better.
Genesis Coupe is pretty much Hyundai's answer to the Z Car. Lots of power, not much room, not that much emphasis on handling prowess, lets use raw power to make up for handling deficiencies. If that's the kind of car you like, just like the Camaro and Mustang, you wouldn't even be looking at the Twins.
BC.
Miata is too small and IMO feminine, in my area alot of older women drive them.
Genesis is just down right brutal, i test drove one a while back it was just awful, IMO its a car that attracts young first time car buyers who have no idea what they are getting into. Cheap and decent power, but sloppy handling and the power even though it is there is mushy, not responsive i found.
05-25-2012, 10:13 PM
#70
First off, Mustang and Camaro are Muscle / Pony cars. They value high hp numbers over steering feel, by huge amounts. Last review I read on the Camaro was that it doesn't know what to do with a corner in the first place, even though it has an IRS. Plus, both of those cars are pushing the 3500 to 4000 lbs range. No matter what you do to the car, when it weighs that much, it handles like a vehicle that weighs that much.
Miata is underpowered, and due soon for a refresh. Good car to compare, as with a bit of cash, you can make it more powerful, and handle better.
Genesis Coupe is pretty much Hyundai's answer to the Z Car. Lots of power, not much room, not that much emphasis on handling prowess, lets use raw power to make up for handling deficiencies. If that's the kind of car you like, just like the Camaro and Mustang, you wouldn't even be looking at the Twins.
How about we ask this question instead:
If the Porsche Cayman was only $30k brand new, who here would buy one of the twins over the Cayman?
I certainly wouldn't.
BC.
Miata is underpowered, and due soon for a refresh. Good car to compare, as with a bit of cash, you can make it more powerful, and handle better.
Genesis Coupe is pretty much Hyundai's answer to the Z Car. Lots of power, not much room, not that much emphasis on handling prowess, lets use raw power to make up for handling deficiencies. If that's the kind of car you like, just like the Camaro and Mustang, you wouldn't even be looking at the Twins.
How about we ask this question instead:
If the Porsche Cayman was only $30k brand new, who here would buy one of the twins over the Cayman?
I certainly wouldn't.
BC.
The most compelling argument comes from the used market as you eluded to. The same money buys you a pretty nice 996, Cayman, or Boxster S, all of which are fantastic cars.
05-26-2012, 01:48 AM
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Road & Track has an article, comparing the BRZ, Miata and Genesis. I've yet to lay eyes on one, let alone drive it, but the article is pretty much what I thought. I just don't see the BRZ as the car that would make me throw rocks at my 8 and want to get rid of it. If the 8 was still available, I think the BRZ would be the second best option in the new car market. If I wanted a new car in this segment, it would be at the top of the list of cars to test drive.
05-29-2012, 03:40 AM
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GT86 (FRS) Vs. RX8
The wife (soon to be) wants a sports car; we thought about another RX8 for her however she would not stay up on maintained, we looked at BMW’s however I can’t justify a 35k car payment and again maintenance is crucial to those cars. I think the BRZ/GT86 are good options if the subie motor doesn’t require a lot of up keep (aka change oil fill with fuel) the car seems to have the most potential bang for the buck, but I feel like in the end it will leave us wanting more. I know it’s suppose to be a tuner car, however how many of us will pay 25k+ and then turbo the car right away voiding the warranty ? I know I can’t afford to do that, so basic Exhaust and Intake upgrades would be the only route to take still leaving her at the end of the day with a car similar to my 8. (I think the styling is very similar between the cars and a mix of the Z) just my opinion
Side note I’d never trade in the 8 for anything other than another Rotary car. I have a daily driver so there is no need to worry for MPG otherwise never a complaint with the car!
The wife (soon to be) wants a sports car; we thought about another RX8 for her however she would not stay up on maintained, we looked at BMW’s however I can’t justify a 35k car payment and again maintenance is crucial to those cars. I think the BRZ/GT86 are good options if the subie motor doesn’t require a lot of up keep (aka change oil fill with fuel) the car seems to have the most potential bang for the buck, but I feel like in the end it will leave us wanting more. I know it’s suppose to be a tuner car, however how many of us will pay 25k+ and then turbo the car right away voiding the warranty ? I know I can’t afford to do that, so basic Exhaust and Intake upgrades would be the only route to take still leaving her at the end of the day with a car similar to my 8. (I think the styling is very similar between the cars and a mix of the Z) just my opinion
Side note I’d never trade in the 8 for anything other than another Rotary car. I have a daily driver so there is no need to worry for MPG otherwise never a complaint with the car!
05-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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I do think that the fr-s/brz will be good cars, but enough to make me want to get rid of the rx, I sincerely doubt it. The rotary "feel" and sound is absolutely addictive, it's like a daily dose of prozac, without the nasty side effects. Well, ok, there is the horrible, big block v8 like fuel economy, which I think is exactly where some of the buyers for the twins will come from, RX owners who are really struggling at the pump to keep their cars gassed up. I find the highway fuel economy acceptable, but commuting/ city driving is abysmal, like carbed V8 bad. So if one were to trade their RX for a fr-s/brz they gain fuel economy, and...? I'll reserve final judgement until I actually drive the cars, or a bunch of people here do and post about them, but I'm guessing anybody who ditches their RX for one of them will be regretting the decision in about a week.
08-04-2012, 05:17 PM
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I got to test drive a BRZ today. It was a silver premium with the 6-speed manual. I will say, asthetically, I think the car looks really good except the wheels. Interior I'd say is average. Nothing special but nothing horrible either. Having a digital spedometer readout like the 8 is pretty cool, but it has the needle as well, which I thought was weird.
Overall the ride felt similar to the 8, but it did actually feel slower despite being a bit lighter. Clutch actually felt a bit lighter then the 8 and the engagement was a bit higher than the 8, which took some getting used to. Shifting was pretty smooth and precise but didn't feel quite as dialed in as the 8. I thought the reverse was goofy since you have to lift up a little tab (for lack of a better term) on the stick to throw it in reverse.
Overall, I am looking for a new ride but I wouldn't get rid of my 8 for the BRZ. IMO, while it is a good overall car, I just don't feel it is any kind of "upgrade" from the RX-8. With all the drooling over this car, I wonder if they will be bashing it and/or forgetting all about it after a couple of years like they did with the 8.
Frankly, I also think it is overpriced for what it is. I actually wonder if the current screwed up dollar vs yen made this car come in at a price point a higher than initially anticipated. The V-6 Mustang actually looks more appealing to me as far as bang for the buck.
Overall the ride felt similar to the 8, but it did actually feel slower despite being a bit lighter. Clutch actually felt a bit lighter then the 8 and the engagement was a bit higher than the 8, which took some getting used to. Shifting was pretty smooth and precise but didn't feel quite as dialed in as the 8. I thought the reverse was goofy since you have to lift up a little tab (for lack of a better term) on the stick to throw it in reverse.
Overall, I am looking for a new ride but I wouldn't get rid of my 8 for the BRZ. IMO, while it is a good overall car, I just don't feel it is any kind of "upgrade" from the RX-8. With all the drooling over this car, I wonder if they will be bashing it and/or forgetting all about it after a couple of years like they did with the 8.
Frankly, I also think it is overpriced for what it is. I actually wonder if the current screwed up dollar vs yen made this car come in at a price point a higher than initially anticipated. The V-6 Mustang actually looks more appealing to me as far as bang for the buck.
Last edited by 77mjd; 08-04-2012 at 05:20 PM.
