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it’s just you not understanding why it would need to be different and why putting them both like that isn’t anywhere close to equal wrt opening and closing timing.
in mechanical reality the 13B peripheral port actually opens sooner and closes later than the Renesis side port despite the perception, because your mind’s eye is in error about how each port opens and closes in their relative positions.
but then this thread/subject is both witness and testimony on how little is really understood about wankel engine design and engineering. Because it’s that same kind of “looks are deceiving” off the cuff pseudo-science engineering guesstimation rather than a real understanding of the mechanical reality that leads everyone down this false Renesis hybrid path.
Yet again, I was led down it doing the same myself back 13+ years ago too, yet came to understand where others still haven’t on why it’s a false belief and deceptive error.
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RX8 Exhaust port timing Open 50' BBDC Close 3' BTDC
GSL-SE Exhaust port timing Open 71' BBDC Close 48' ATDC
The motion of the rotor tips vs the sides (on the Eshaft and the rotor's rotation) makes it very hard (impossible) to eyeball, as well as the different port shapes and resulting "curtain area". That is, I think, what Team was trying to say. Regardless, that is, I believe, the answer to your question.
And Team is right, these builds seem to have missed the great mismatch in exhaust timing/duration by using an unmodified GSL-SE housing.
But, like I have said this engine needs a full build to real world test any theory. Others have gone before in this case, and you can get the right idea that the GSL-SE port timing does not work well with the MSP side housings, and perhaps build a different engine based on that store of knowledge at this point in time.
Each effort is not wasted, even if it does not reach the goal in mind. Something is always learned. DIYman's engine builder may have solved the problem of sealing the side ex ports. That is a big step forward, if it lasts in this engine.
Last edited by kevink0000; 06-09-2022 at 10:52 AM.
all the knowledge base in the world won’t transform left field into right field.
it’s just like I posted above; it’s the essentially the same kind of mistake borne out of a similar overall lack of understanding.
There’s not any peripheral exhaust port housing you can come up with that isn’t going to result in immediate, overwhelming overlap and exhaust gas reversion on the Renesis side plates regardless of whether the side exhaust ports are filled or not.
Not that I can open what God has clearly closed, but again; the Renesis intake is configured solely on the zero exhaust port overlap concept. It’s why it can do what it does straight out of the box. Which is significantly better than **any** factory 13B street engine that ever came before it.
Yet is also why it will never jive with any peripheral exhaust port. Because it’s impossible to have a functional peripheral exhaust port that isn’t going to result in the same overarching situation that your mind’s eye and ear are blinded from knowing and deaf of perceiving.
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There is no real option; custom or otherwise. All that shown above and more has been tried at a very high dollar level and failed. If you want to throw money at it though, there are plenty of people who will gladly take it and give you the just desserts of your folly.
There’s no other way to state it; you don’t understand much of anything on this. It’s just a theoretical idea not based on a real understanding or knowledge of the physical reality as opposed to the misbeliefs and fallacies you think otherwise of. Some people have to learn the hard way. However, with an economic collapse looming on the horizon you might want to think thrice on it before leaping off that cliff.
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^^as slow as usual I’d imagine, but thanks for the reminder.
so in the example log I posted earlier in this thread the Renesis engine was already starting to go off some and not even as fast as it was a year or so earlier in this autox video where it’s riding the 2nd gear limiter multiple times
I have watched your video now a couple of times. Your engine sounds very crisp even though it was softer than when new as you have said. It is a quick car. That was running your own log ex. manifold, correct?
You may know the answer to this: I have yet to find any hybrid build like this where the builder reduced exhaust duration from the stock GSLSE housing timing, or even from the stock RX8 timing. Has that ever been published anywhere?
Last edited by kevink0000; 07-03-2022 at 04:37 PM.
the question only reveals a lack of understanding of how a peripheral port works, the timing of it in particular.
simply put, it isn’t possible to reduce it enough because by then it won’t be anywhere near enough. A Renesis is what it is for this reason. The Mazda engineers knew and understood the situation well. That’s why Renesis doesn’t have a peripheral exhaust port.
I know my words frustrate you Kevin, but in reality you don’t understand what you incorrectly give credit to yourself of.
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the question only reveals a lack of understanding of how a peripheral port works, the timing of it in particular.
simply put, it isn’t possible to reduce it enough because by then it won’t be anywhere near enough. A Renesis is what it is for this reason. The Mazda engineers knew and understood the situation well. That’s why Renesis doesn’t have a peripheral exhaust port.
I know my words frustrate you Kevin, but in reality you don’t understand what you incorrectly give credit to yourself of.
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No, your words don't frustrate me, its the lack of them that does. Your speak in generalities when only specifics will further the discussion, and then condemn others for not understanding what you do. That is what is frustrating. That is not a discussion, that is a drive-by.
Of course I disagree, but if someone I am not aware of has done it the way I am thinking of and it hasn't worked, then I will consider myself corrected.
A PP does not need the area of the side ports because it will flow better, and scavenging will be better, for many reasons. It can (should) be smaller than what is on the stock GSLSE housings and still flow better than the side ports at high rpm.
The side port timing of a stock Renesis, when applied to a sufficiently wide PP exhaust port, would give better scavenging inherently. If you feel/know otherwise, tell me why please.
The reason I saw stated by Mazda for the side port development was for emissions only, since the PP exhaust is "dirty" and has less inherent EGR.
Which I always found as telling, the idea that a new port design that increases EGR (charge dilution) in and of itself is a good thing.
Their emission constraints compromised the design, but I feel, probably as you do, they did the best they could.
No, your words don't frustrate me, its the lack of them that does. Your speak in generalities when only specifics will further the discussion, and then condemn others for not understanding what you do. That is what is frustrating. That is not a discussion, that is a drive-by.
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ah, the vipers and asps striking out with their poison again.
It just like the header theory et al attitude all over again; you have it all already in front of your staring eyes and sounding loudly within your ears. Referencing your own sentiments; you can’t even discern that I already stopped and provided it all freely; multiple times, just as I had also received freely. Stopping to repeat it again will profit nothing.
Both mocking and insulting your own inability. The ultimate revelation for this comes when you sink your own money into building one. Denying the truth of it within yourselves; why else look for the answer in someone else’s name? Oh ye of such little faith, yet so filled of your own bluster. Your cup runs over of it.
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you think yourself wise and me not, you say I told you nothing, yet I did tell you and you understood not. Even your lack of understanding you don’t understand and now you flail about in your own lack of if.
Where do you think the source of all wisdom comes from? The same that revealed to me you’re deceiving way to intentionally sow the seeds of discord. Your words only describe yourself wallowing about in your own lack of enlightenment. You intentionally want a public display; nothing more, and you have it.
As it was said:
The foolish inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.
It doesn’t have to be that way though. Turning from such with a sincere and open heart is the good and worthy choice that will both redeem and set straight all which was in error.
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The Mohan engine retained the side ports and added PP. Looks like there was some hand porting also. The Chips Motorsports engine used an "all the above" approach. It had more ports than a v-6. I am sure it cost huge $$$ to build.
Like I have said before, this engine requires complete removal from the car and complete disassembly to make changes. Therefore, there is temptation to make many changes and "improvements" at once, all in one build.
That is a serious consideration that is routinely discarded in these builds. Less is more, when you are modifying. It may sound silly, and I may get flamed for saying this, but the thinking and psychology of the builder or group used to initiate the build and while the build is progressing is important.
There have been comments about dollars and resources of huge size being brought to bear, but the vector of those builds may have been faulty at the outset, and some "while we're in hereism" sprinkled in, and even with that, there does not appear anywhere I have found, a simple, minimalist build to increase exhaust flow without changing the timing and duration. And, perhaps even reducing duration from Renesis spec. I am not faulting anyone who has put the time and money on the line to build something new. I highly respect people who do.
The perfect exhaust port for this engine would remove all exhaust with zero duration ( to retain as many rotational degrees of combustion pressure as possible), add some chamber vacuum before closing, not put any extra heat into the engine, and get the intake cycle set up, with a pristinely clean chamber. Impossible, of course, but that is the goal. Different from engines that use overlap to assist in scavenging.
All the builds I have seen cited in this thread and others not cited, have drastically altered and increased the exhaust timing from the stock Renesis specs, regardless of how many hours or dollars were spent. That allowed limited or no chances for success, from day one.
Then the concept is deemed a dead end, and more potentially profitable discussions and ideas die.
Last edited by kevink0000; 07-05-2022 at 09:49 AM.
Nobody making Renesis power (230 whp NA) or more in a 13B engine is lessening peripheral exhaust port duration. Just the complete opposite. The only reason somebody will be hung up on such an idea is from not clearly understanding what they’re assessing incorrectly.
So I’m not going into the whole thing here, but am going to clarify my position for the newer members who maybe aren’t aware of the full scope of it. This hybrid Renesis idea as best I can recall came up on the forum around 2006 - 2007. I was thinking the same thing as everyone else and was fully interested in it myself for all the same reasons and thinking all the same thoughts. When Mazdatrix came out with this around 2009 it really got me motivated. Note that initially they were making under 300 whp with a turbo. Honestly it was pretty lame. That thread is a good place to start and read through all the way from beginning to end. There are others too.
I even spoke to Mazdatrix about purchasing a hybrid exhaust flange. They more or less declined to talk about it much, maybe thinking they had something special. It was just the 13B and Renesis exhaust gaskets laid over each other, which I have the CAD drawings for. No, it’s not special, it would just save me time etc. back then. Today you can have it laser cut easily out of 1/2” stainless steel plate almost anywhere. However, I came across information, and along with doing further research, that led me to believe it wasn’t going to be as viable as was being perceived. That’s when I decided the hybrid Renesis was neither special nor worth pursuing.
Being accused of empty words etc. is a bit amusing. No, there are existing threads on here where I put forward the effort going into substantial detail with diagrams, lengthy explanations, and thread links to many attempts and results, including 13B REW results that do approximate what was done on the KMR Renesis hybrid wrt boost and power output. My own works on this topic here on the forum exceed anyone else, including such accusers.
What most people don’t get is the version KMR ended up with; some of which was discussed in the latest video linked above, is that particular hybrid is fully/heavily bridge ported and full exhaust ported. That along with some of the things discussed in that video is what it took to get it from below 300 whp to 430 whp over the course of several years. When you do all that in an REW you get the same or better result.
Also, nobody is grasping that whether Renesis or hybrid Renesis, the engines that provide strong output results are all professional quality, hand-built, blueprinted, finely microbalanced, etc. engines. They’re not something you’re going to throw together in your garage reusing sloppy parts from a worn out street engine. So get the idea of a hybrid Renesis being the easy answer to high NA output out of your head.
With a turbo/boosted setup there is some acceptable slop tolerance at the expense of best output possible. Those engines are likely upwards of $10,000 for the short block (slightly less if not broken in over a day on an engine dyno). Even more for the hybrid once you weigh in all the custom parts it requires in finished & installed form. The argument about swapping to an REW is expensive falls flat when all the true costs are added up.
So yes, I’m a bit wily about not spelling out every last detail; not wanting to cast out all my pearls to be trampled on any more than handing out that which is holy freely to anyone. I have my reasons for that and to anyone who disagrees, that’s just the way it is. Back in those other threads on this subject, I posted photos and told some of the same accusers they can’t even see what’s right in front of their own eyes, and some of them still don’t to this day. Some of which are finally discussed in that latest video above. I’m simply not going to entertain gifting dogs, any more than hogs who will only turn and rend me.
Not everyone on here is like that though. A few people demonstrate wisdom and forethought on how to approach it. With them it doesn’t go like you see here or as you will also find in those other threads with all the dirty laundry hanging out for the entire world to see. Those who seek to demonstrate themselves loudly for all to take notice and marvel over, they have the just reward of their own pride, vanity, and arrogance. I won’t acknowledge them with anything more than the public display they do so desire and crave above all else.
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Of course I disagree. I am not claiming to know as much as some on here, but I stand by what I said, and let that be enough without getting into an argument about pearls and swine.
it’s misperception on every level including that which is before your face
you only disagree with the truth; an opinion that is not true may not be an intentional lie, but it still is still just as untruthful and the end result is still the same. They prophéteuó, the cast out daimonion, they do many dunamis works, yet they lack the truth and they deceive many into believing mistruth as much as their own self.
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Team, I don't think anyone here dispute your knowledge or experience.
However, the vastness of the forum can lead to a lot of wasted time searching for relevant threads of interest, which often pose conflicting opinions and resolutions.
I'm offering this as constructive criticism, not meant to provoke your ire or start more argument, this is only from my viewpoint.
Your wont to proselytizing can be tiresome for some of us.
If perhaps you would offer less comment which can be perhaps mistakenly perceived
as judgmental, or having the appearance of superior knowledge begrudgingly bestowed from above high, maybe you could offer a few parsed comments with links to the threads you so often refer to?
Just a thought maybe you can consider.
If you disagree, I understand and don't require a response.
If anyone should require spoon-feeding, then Kevin should be able to assist you. He knows where they are.
because nobody spoon fed me on everything I dug up and already provided; again, multiple times.
additional clarification is that it’s just the same people flagellating me again on this same topic over my opinion that they disagree with, yet never can provide anything else themselves otherwise. Even in this thread I provided logs and videos of my own non-hybrid Renesis for comparison and it’s not good enough for them either.
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it’s misperception on every level including that which is before your face
you only disagree with the truth; an opinion that is not true may not be an intentional lie, but it still is still just as untruthful and the end result is still the same. They prophéteuó, the cast out daimonion, they do many dunamis works, yet they lack the truth and they deceive many into believing mistruth as much as their own self.
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Team for some reason the diagram here did not show up until today on my browser.
I have not seen that before, or if I have I had forgotten about it. The depiction of the port relationship is about what I thought it would look like, and it was helpful of you to post it.
It shows port area but not flow, which I am sure you have considered.
My thoughts are these:
It is much easier to modify a PP housing exhaust to get the required size/timing than the Renesis irons. There is too much going on there and its maxed out from the factory. But, it still may not be feasible to have only two ports.
But, the endgame on this will probably still be a PP/Renesis retaining all 5 exhaust ports, or maybe sealing off the Siamese and using a 4 port design, but with the GSLSE port timing being restricted to mimic the Renesis timing, or even be later opening for both port types. I know there was conjecture about turbulence being an issue, but I think the main reason for the lack of good results is the GSLSE timing and duration being retained or even enhanced in most of these builds.
Do I have a way to do all this? NO.
But, to stop all discussion about this because of obstacles, is wrong. I think I will be worth it, someday. Maybe turbos will still be best served by the REW, but it will beneficial to see a Renesis or Renesis hybrid make big(ger) power also, and how it was done.
My issue with you was always the shutdown of conversation and ideas. Not that you don't have any, or you are wrong. You have a lot more knowledge of this engine than I do, for sure. I am not trying to show my awesomeness. I have no awesomeness to show. I don't care about that. I have been proven wrong on this forum before and I am OK with that.
As I have said many times before, many, many people do not bother to post anything other than a full victory project because of the caustic nature of some of the people here, you being one of them. Add in the religious posturing, and it becomes a pretty toxic mix in my opinion. Its not about forum rules, either. I really hope you elevate the discussion each time you post.
Last edited by kevink0000; 07-08-2022 at 02:18 PM.
Here's a challenge for you; how about posting up something more than your own toxic loathing?
What's more toxic to someone committed to untruth than to have it exposed for all to see? An eye filled with an ancient redwood forest and a heart that craves the praise of men above all else. I seek no such praise, but am only here to reveal that which; as unjust as you may consider it, was humbly gifted to me and still not yet you.
I updated Post #34 to also include a 60 - 90 mph 3rd gear run data log from the same time period as the 30 - 60 mph log 2nd gear log.
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06-08-2022, 08:51 PM
