Nisaja, the starter motors aren't slowing down. The engine is losing compression.
A low-compression engine has to be spun faster than the pre-2006 starter will spin it to start reliably when warm.
So alotta people like me are buying 2006+ starters for our older cars so we can start the fool things until they get bad enough they need a rebuild.

 

I have to disagree Wankelbolt. They do slow down. I know of a S2 car with a 2kw starter that cranks at 194rpm! Checked using the OBD2, pedal to the floor while cranking. Although it starts the car fine without dragging (assuming because the engine is healthy), it's weirdly slow for a 2kw starter. I also know of an S1 with the old 1.4kw starter that spins at 240rpm. How is that possible?

 

You can disagree, but disagreeing doesn't change the fact that compression loss is the reason most people upgrade starters.

The exceptions you cite are just that - exceptions. Defective starters or other reasons.

 

Yes, a lower compression engine will need a faster starter to get it started. That I agree. But, these starters slow down over time.

If you check the cranking rpm in your car, I bet it's slower than what it used to be when it was new.

My question is, why don't people just service the starter? Or replace the brushes?

 

I'm going to chime in with this.

You don't want the 06+ starter either. The N3Z1 (3rd version) is an okay starter. You want the 09+ N3R3.< anything else is just a toy

Just some info to ponder.

Travis

 

Isn't the 2007+ starter good enough? Anyways, my starter is fine. I've just seen too many people on YouTube comparing their old starters with new 2kw starters and, although you can't make a 1.4kw starter spin as fast as a 2kw starter, you can still bring your old starter's original speed back by cleaning it and replacing the brushes. Would save a lot of money. A friend of mine did this to his 1.4kw starter and his cranking speed went from 190ish to 240rpm! Just by dismantling it and cleaning the internals. He didn't even replace the worn out brushes.

 

New member, first post, forgive me if this isn't the place for it. I searched and read stickies and didn't find this, but I can't help but think it's on here somewhere if I just hit the right combination of keywords.... and this thread says this is the place for questions like that, so...

Anyway, the problem is this: We recently bought a 2004 RX8. Looks, runs, and drives great. It needs a few things, of course, but one thing it's doing has me puzzled. When the car is under load, there is a "thumping" that feels exactly like a bad tire -- a "thump" at regular intervals like a wheel rotating.

But it isn't the tires. Yesterday I put four brand new tires on it, and the problem remains. It doesn't happen if it's only me in the car -- I can ride it as hard as I like and it's wonderful. But add a passenger and hit the gas hard, and you feel it. Add another passenger or a trunk full of groceries and you feel it even just going up a hill. But cruising on flat ground feels fine. It only happens under load -- either hard acceleration or a hill with lots of weight in the car.

What is this likely to be? Motor mounts, maybe? Anyone else ever experienced this?

 

I don't think I've heard of anyone else having that problem. To me it sounds like it could be an engine or tranny mount, quite possibly a worn out u-joint on the drive shaft. That can happen with excessive difting........through pot holes.........in an empty parking lot.

 

Is this thumping coming from the back of the car when going over bumps? You say it's fine on smooth roads. If you drive with 3 people on a smooth road, does it make the sound? At regular intervals you say? Does the thump's tempo go up as you increase the speed?

Wild guess... Could be your wheel bearings.

 

Oh and welcome to the club man! :D

 

It is hard to pinpoint where it's coming from. It does seem like the back of the car, though it's harder to say which side. It is not related to road bumps, only to engine load. When I said it was fine on smooth level road, I meant if I was just maintaining speed, not accelerating hard, not climbing a hill, I do not feel the thumping. (And I do feel it, not just hear it. Not hard, though -- pretty much exactly how a bad spot on a tire would be felt.) I believe it does go up with increased speed, though I'm not sure at the moment exactly how (how much it increases, and whether related to engine speed or road speed). I will drive it again later and find out.

 

+1^ U-joints, especially if it's increasing or decreasing with rpms.

 

Because a serviced or even brand-new original starter will not reliably start a tired engine. Or at least not my tired engine. The newer starter does.

You may want to start a DIY thread showing how to refurbish the starter along with before and after results. You might call it "Low compression, trouble starting? Service your starter before replacing it!" Then other people can find the thread, try it, and report back with their findings. If it has merit it will gather positive results and might make it into the Starting Issues FAQ and maybe onto RIWWP's helpful website.

 

Having just gone through a similar situation myself, I don't think it's the driveshaft. After doing lots of work and lots of research, I would lay 90% odds it's a wheel bearing.

Critical things you haven't mentioned are total mileage on the car and MT or AT. Also have you gone through any service records and checked to see what parts have been replaced? Called the PO and/or dealer and asked for service history? If you are over 100k and they've never been replaced; wheel bearings.

 

Yeah I'm definitely doing a DIY on this as soon as I get my hands on a weak starter I know a new 1.4kw starter might not be able to start an engine with low compression like a 2kw starter. But servicing it MIGHT help, and save about $200. That's a lot of money if you ask me.

Yeah that's why I said whee bearings too. Had a similar issue with a Mazda 3. There was a thumping sound that increased with speed. Replaced them and all was well.

 

Good point -- it is automatic transmission, and it has 116,000 miles on it. I know it has new coils, plugs, and exhaust, but I do not have an overall service history on it. I will see if I can get one. But wheel bearings does sound like a definite possibility, and one that probably should be done anyway if it hasn't. Is there anything I could check that would confirm that's the problem (aside from pulling the bearings)?

Also, I didn't drive it yesterday to get more info because we had a big thunderstorm roll through, and I didn't want to be out driving in it. Will try again later.

 

I have (had) the N3Z1 starter. Im awaiting my N3R3 to come in the mail from Chris. It worked well enough i would guess. But, the N3R3 is a Better starter in every sense of the word. I just dont understand why you would want an inferior starter.

Now if your personal situation (finances) dictates that you can't afford to purchase the starter thats one thing and completely understandable. But if you think the N3Z1 is just as good in any way your wrong.

Rebuild it and test the speed. Once mine is in i will post my speed so you can compare.
Unless someone already has the info and would like to share.

Travis

 

An S2 starter will get you 295-315RPM with a good battery, even the updated S1 starter is only barely good enough for 250-255RPM. I tested back to back with my new Denso S1 starter and the Mazda S2 starter when we did the compression tester comparison.

The only thing that sucks is that I paid almost $400.00 for my S2 starter from Mazda and now you can get one on Amazon for $190.00,

Oh and for ***** and giggles we installed a S2 starter on an rx-8 with a blown apex seal that would not start and with the S2 starter it actually fired up repeatedly.

 

Thank you 9k

I have seen 320RPM on one RX8 and around 295-305 on a few RX8's now actually. Surpasing even what you have said you've seen which actually shocks me a bit. It was quite impressive actually and it was an N3R3 with a brand new battery as well.

Yea i paid way less than you for mine.

Good to know it'll keep a blown renny starting lol.

Travis

 

I thought I just asked this but I don't see my post anywhere so maybe it didn't post.


I need to retune my car and was wondering if this is something I can learn and do at home? What resources can I find online to help me with this? What tools do I need? Basically just got a REVi intake installed and it is running lean. Dealership is going to charge over $600 to have this done and $500 is the cheapest I can find at a local shop. I try to do everything myself and this is one of those things I feel I should know, regardless of cost.


Also took the car to another town much higher in altitude and the car drove like a pig. Would be nice to be able to do this from time to time when going from track to track.

 

Have you actually read the new owners and the modifying sticky, that EVERY member who wishes to know about these cars and their moding potential should read?

I recommend reading both of those.

There is even a tuning sticky in the tuning subforum.

I suggest you familiarize yourself with these forums prior to delving too deep in the modifying and tuning world...

 

Tora,

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-eng...urther-253444/
Series I Engine Tuning Forum - RX8Club.com
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-eng...-noobs-205781/

Read through the threads linked within my sig as well for general knowledge.

Travis

 

Not sure what the dealer is going to use to " retune" the car. It isn't an option on the dealer iDS

If you are NA...buy a Cobb or MazdaEdit and do it yourself. If you are FI get a Cobb or MazdaEdit and get Bret or Kane to remote tune it for you. It is easy NA...almost impossible to screw up too bad if you are careful

 

On the dashboards appeared checks lights:P0351 , P0352. Because of this I've changed ignition coil, ignition coil wire and spark plug but check is still appairs.
After start on rpm 1000 - 2000 engine has strange voise.
After start while engine is cold exhaust smoke is strangely much and white.
Check out engine sound while music starts in my first video.
In second video after release acceleration pedal you can hear strange sound and smoke is also too much.
Also car has slightly less power.
Please help me..
Thanks in advance.
Video1: Video2:

 

Yes. I know the updated S1 starter is not as good as the S2 starter. But cleaning reusing it until your engine can't start with it anymore can at least delay spending $200 on an S2 starter. Yes, personal situation is the key here. $200, is a lot of money for most people. Saying that cleaning an S1 starter to get it up go S2 speeds wasn't the point. These starters slow down over time. Cleaning it and replacing the brushes will bring the speed back to normal, and it's a much cheaper solution than buying a new starter. That was the point. I will definitely clean a slow starter and post up my findings