Ike

They can make a version very similar, it's not tough to change a couple things around and not have to worry about copyright and trademark laws. Like Blueeyes pointed out sometimes it's just easier and cheaper to get it from someone else.

Glyphon

well, maybe. but, ultimately what makes it an auto or a manual is how it is implemented in a given car.

F1 with sequential gearbox - manual
Road ferarri with same sequential gearbox + transmission control computer - automatic

eventually, if VW releases a manual shifter + clutch pedal to control the DSG shifts, then it will be a manual. as it is implemented today, it is an automatic that has a quasi-manual mode.

cleoent

Um no.

When someone speaks of a traditional auto they are thinking of something that comes in an accord, or a taurus, which is a tranny that uses those parts.

Those parts are what make a traditional auto a traditional auto.

Ike

Sorry, but I'm not going to let others preconceived notions dicatate what I call something. If it's shifts automatically for me the term automatic seems pretty damn fitting.

cleoent

This is again where we will have to agree to disagree.

All F1 boxes will have a transmission control computer FYI.

It's not an auto, it's not a manual, it's a semi auto. A manual that can be driven like an auto. It has all the same parts a manual does, and none of the parts an auto does. Only difference is, the computer does the leg work (get it, leg work ha ha ha ha i crack myself up lol)

Ike

VAG doesn't have a DSG capable of handling the power of the Lambos yet, simple as that. At least not one that won't adds many thousands of dollars to the price of the cars.

cleoent

That's fine, like i said about 30 posts ago, if you'd like to be ignorant, it's no skin off my back, you call it whatever you'd like mate. Heck i dont care if you call a i4 a flat 4, all that matters is they both have 4 cylinders right!?!?!? lol

Good luck with that.

rickeo

iTrader: (1)

ALright cleoent, do you agree this is getting a little out of hand...? as well as completely off topic.

Ike

All the same parts huh? Seems to me it's missing some very important things that a manual has. Lets see, clutch pedal, nope, manual shifter that allows you to select gears, nope. Try downshifting from 5th directly to 2nd with a DSG...

FYI, even a traditional slushbox has clutch plates and friction plates.

cleoent

It's definitely off topic, but there's been no flaming we're just discussing, if a mod could split the thread that would be nice.

cleoent

There's a clutch pedal, accept we dont push it, it's hydrollically controlled and can be pushed in and out faster then we could have ever hoped.

I bet you 5 bucks, that i could tap the shifter 3 times (5>4>3>2) faster then you could put clutch in, heel toe (you see they all rev match now), move shifter over and drop second and let out the clutch.

Cool technology huh?

Glyphon

i agree those are the parts that make a traditional auto a traditional auto. but that's not what sti_eric said. he said "makes an auto an auto", which isn't true.

the driver not selecting the timing of the shift, the shift itself and the gears is what makes an auto an auto.

simply put, an auto changes gears for you, a manual requires it to be done by the driver. makes no difference which technology causes the changing of gears.

and saying that an i4 is the same thing as a boxer-4 is wrong, because the layout is different. but they are both 4 bangers. (i see you edited out boxer 4).

Glyphon

speed of shifts has nothing to do with this.

cleoent

I originally didn't list the boxer, then i did to further make my point, then i took it out again to make it less confusing.

My point was exactly that. i6 and a v6 are different, very different, but both are six cylinders... so one could argue they are the same, i say they are not. But we are getting even more off topic.


Ike, imagine this, i think you have an evo now right?

Ok imagine an evo that could be programmed to get that perfect balance between grip and wheelspin on launch, can shift faster then you could ever dream, could rev match perfectly with each downshift, could switch each gear with a fast and authoritive thunk time after time after time, and then at the end of the day you push a putton and it's silky smooth shifts without you having to break a sweat. Say hallo to DSG. (the others ones do this, but not as well)

You show me a auto, with a torque converter that can do that, and you win.

cleoent

Sure it does, it has everything to do with this. Show me a factory "auto" tranny that chirps gears, and has launch control.

As far as the rev matching goes, i've read that the newer auto's are doing that, that is friggin pimp. Technology owns.

Ike

Read that again and think about it, I'll give you some time

cleoent

What part didn't you understand? Perhaps this would help "Clutch pedal"

lol. Now you're splitting hairs. I think you should hang em up dude. You're really having to stretch to get any sort of footing in this discussion.

sti_eric

Yes, "simply put" is exactly it. You are oversimplifying an automatic by saying that anything that can be programmed to shift for you is an automatic. This is your own personal definition that you are desperately trying to get everyone here to accept.

The fact is, the transmissions we are discussing here are NOT automatics and they are NOT manuals. They are a completely different category. Why can't you accept that? Because it will mean admitting you have been wrong throughout this entire thread?

The ONLY difference between a traditional manual transmission and a sequential manual gearbox is that in the SMG, the clutch is controlled by the computer instead of by a person's left foot. The transmission used is EXACTLY the same. The only SIMILARITY between a traditional automatic and an SMG is that you don't HAVE to shift yourself.

Here's more info on these types of transmissions: http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ear_manual.htm

Here's a quote from that site:

Twin-clutch gearbox is undoubtedly a revolutionary technology for manual transmission. Its impact to the automotive world is even greater than automated manual gearbox such Ferrari F1 system. Twin-clutch gearbox was first put into production by BorgWarner, which calls it "DualTronic". It was first used in Audi TT 3.2 in the name "DSG" (Direct-Shift Gearbox).

Ike

Technology owns til you get it on a track (one with turns), at least the technology in street cars.

Glyphon

using your analogy...

auto = 4 banger
manual = 6 banger

both engines do the same thing. and under each type (size) of engine, there are multiple sub groups, but they are still part of the same grouping.

boxer-4 is different than a i4, but they are both 4 cylinders, same with the 6 cylinder engines. different types, but still are 6-cyl engines.

this is just confirming what i said earlier...there is only an auto and a manual, but there are different types of each of these.

cleoent

I dont think they're gunna get it mate. It's like talking to my wife

cleoent

Now you're just talking out your butt. Where on earth are you getting your info? An SMG equipped m3 for instance. The 6spd is faster in a straight line, why? Because BMW has programmed the launch mode in the states to only allow a limited amount of RPM use because of fear of people buring out their clutches launching the car and then suing for warrantied replacement.

But, you put them on a track, like a few magazines have done, and guess which one is faster, easier around a track? I'll give you a hint, the driver doesn't have to worry about pushing in a clutch with his left leg.

cleoent

We're going off topic again, my point may not have come out as clearly as i wanted it to be, I apologize.

That doesn't make me less right, or you more wrong (cuz frankly, that's not possible )

Ike

My argument makes perfect logical sense, you're the one stretching. There's no freaking clutch pedal that's "hydrollically controled", there is however a pressure plate.

Glyphon

no, it is you that is over complicating. what does an automatic transmission do? it changes the gearing without input of the driver. a manual transmission requires some sort of input to change the gearing. the mechanisms causing the change is irrelevant. User intervention is the only thing that differentiates a manual from an auto.

and yes, i'm saying that an auto can be both. put the car in D, and ignore it after that, its an auto. put it in manu-matic, and its a manual, because by and large it requires the user to select the gear (but since it has all the compenents necessary to be an auto, it can over ride the manual inputs in certain situations).

a manual transmission cannot be run as an automatic if the driver chooses not to shift. the mechanisms to override the driver and shift gears is not present.