Ike

I have driven these cars with both trannys, have you? Considering you didn't want to answer that earlier I'll assume that's a no. Thus far no matter how good a automatic tranny is it takes away from driver feel and the ability to modulate the throttle like with a manual. I don't care if it shfts faster or is faster in a straight line, an M3 with a SMG won't be as fast around a track as an M3 with a manual gearbox. Show me one magazine that states otherwise, if you can managed to find that info (which you won't) I'll show you a magazine with an editor that sucks at driving a manual.

sti_eric

Well, if you can get around the spelling mistakes, what he is saying is that flicking the paddle shifter does the exact same thing (disengage clutch, select gear, engage clutch), as a driver who pushes in the clutch pedal, changes the gear with the shifter, then re-engages the clutch. Except it all happens much, much faster in a sequential manual gearbox. If you take a look at that site a linked a few posts back, the DSG upshifts in 8 ms. The longest downshift (6->2) takes 900ms (with rev matching!) - still faster than a person can do it in a manual.

cleoent

You're entertaining, i'll give you that.

cleoent

So what you're saying, if i understand you correctly, is that any transmission that can shift on it's own is an automatic transmission?

Is that accurate?

If so, you are wrong. But we'll have to agree to disagree, but know, you're wrong.

cleoent

No i have not driven a 06 gti DSG, i only wish i could have.

I've driven a 355 with F1, and recently a m3 with smg. The smg II being lightyears ahead of the 355 (which was a 97 i believe). From what i've read (and that's a lot) the DSG is better then both. I can't wait to drive one.

I'm sure that the fact that F1 cars, lemans cars, and other race cars use F1 style transmissions isn't enough proof for you huh?

I'll go search bimmerforums and try to find the link. I'll also send a letter to ferrari telling them ike says fully manual transmissions are faster around a race track because you can "modulate the throttle" which is impossible to do when the car has no clutch pedal for the driver to push

Glyphon

no, not can shift on its own, does shift on its own. there is a difference (but that seems to be beyond you).

Ike

I know exactly how it works man, I saw a video on it before it was even released in the US. I've never denied it shifts faster, I stated it was a brilliant system when I drove it a month or so ago. I also felt terribly disconnect and it's still an automatic.

cleoent

Both kinds can and do shift on their own. If the couldn't, they wouldn't.

Ike

We're not talking about racecars, we're talking about streetcars. The transmission used in racecars is far more expensive and far more advanced than what you're getting in a GTI, they also get about one raceday from one before it needs to be rebuilt.

I've also driven the 355 with paddles, and the DSG is better than any other automatic tranny I've tried on the market.

cleoent

You do realize it's a manual transmission with a computer controlled clutch right? I'm incredibly perplexed that you guys continue to group it with a typical auto tranny, when it's so blatently obvious that it resembles a manual tranny 100x more then it resembles your everyday auto.

So perplexed that i've considered not replying to this thread again, but some of the crap spewing out of your mouthes is just to juicey to pass up!

sti_eric

I believe that they either:
1) Just like to argue, or
2) Are completely ignorant about how automatic and manual transmissions work.

I believe, no, I know Ike is #1. Glyphon could be #1 or #2, or both.

Go ahead, call up engineers at BMW, Audi, Ferrari and ask them if their transmissions are manual, automatic, or neither. Better yet, just check out the car rags and see that no one even refers to these as automatic transmissions.

Glyphon

so you're saying that when you are driving around town in your rx8, it will shift for you? (assuming you drive a manual). if so, tell me how because my manual won't do that.

yet, when driving in my fiance's jetta that has the 6sp DSG, all that is required is to put it in D, and it will go all the way up through 6 and all the way back down to 1 without ever touching the selector again.

cleoent

No they're not. They still shift faster then you can, they still revmatch perfectly everytime, your arguement that you can modulate the throttle on a manual car and not on a f1 tranny car is ridiculous. The arguement that a manual transmission car will be faster around a track is ridiculous. How do you not see that?

The f1 style tranny's do things a lot better then we as humans can. Now lets say it could only shift faster then a standard human, this would still make identical cars (save the tranny) faster in the f1 style vs regular. You have no arguement.


That's because the DSG can't be compared with an automatic tranny. It shares no parts. Compare a DSG gti to a 6spd and tell us what you think. I bet you, you'd be faster around a track in the dsg equipped one.

cleoent

I'm definitely #1 (why else would i still be here arguining with them), but not number 2.

I like ike, he makes me laugh.

cleoent

I ordered a JDM shift fairy.

I've completely lost track of what you're talking about, i apologize, there's so much BS in this thread between you and Ike that I'm having troubles keeping track.

I thought in that post you were talking about a F1 and an auto, in which case both trannys can and do shift on their own.


I realize you've gone off topic and tried to start mini side arguements, and that's fine, but i'd like you to concede the point now so i can go home.

Aspire705

Maannn...I know I don't post here often, but I normally enjoy reading the usually informative & thought-provoking threads here on rx8club. That is, until I come across threads like these where it seems people are more concerned w/ arguing w/ each other than peacefully reaching a generally accepted understanding of subject matter.
We're all auto enthusiasts here guys, so why can't we act like it & come to common ground or agree to disagree when necessary w/out the unnecessarily heated debate?

Neway, I thought I'd give this 1 good try to help reach common ground on things b4 letting u guys continue impaling each other w/ the flaming discourse.

Until a satisfactory compromise is reached, how bout we all agree to call all DSG/SMG/F1 style trannies sequential gearboxes? That way we avoid the ambiguous & apparently hard to define terms "automatic" or "manual"?

That ok? Cuz if you think about it, those 3 trannies have 1 fundamentally intrinsic character in common. They all force you to shift gears in sequential order. No skipping gears on up or downshifts while changing gears.

Agreed? Sheesh...you'd think we were all high school boy racers or sumthin the way we're goin on & on about this. Chillax guys, we're all friends here.
Nehow, if that's not satisfactory, feel free to continue the heated argument till some1 gives up or goes home crying. My $.02.

Glyphon

i know how the different types of transmissions work. and how they physically select different gears is irrelevant. how the driver interacts with the gear selection process is the only thing that is important in differentiating if something is a manual or an auto.

Ike

The car mags don't usually call them automatics because it's their job to play up or playdown various unique things in cvars that set them apart from the crowd. After every imaginable acronym has been bought up by the car companies and this type of automatic becomes the norm what do you think it's going to be called? My guess is an automatic.

cleoent

You are arguing with yourself. You do realize no one here is saying that these tranny's wont shift automatically.

What we are saying is that they are NOT, NOT, NOT even close to the same type of auto in your grandma's stationwagon. When someone says my car is an automatic, you think of torque converters, blah blah blah.

You can call it what you want, you can say what you want to make your point true in your eyes, it's not an "automatic" transmission. That's the end of it.

Glyphon

expanding on that...what does VW call it? i'll give everyone a hint. it starts with auto and ends with matic.

cleoent

Are those the same guessing skills that led you to the conlusion that you have more "throttle modulation" power in a standard manual???

cleoent

DSG is the name of their technology.

stands for

direct shift gearbox IIRC

Glyphon

i could could care less what kind of transmission is in my grandma's cars. when someone says automatic, i think "its shifts on its own". and taht's exactly what the DSG does. what technology brings about this automous gear selection is not what determines whether a tranny is auto or manual.

but i give up. this is obviously too complex an issue for you to grasp.

RotarySpirit

I kind of liked this thread haha...I learned a bit about transmissions

Personally, I think the term 'automatic' fits the sequential gearbox...if it indeed can do it without interaction from the driver, for that is what makes things 'automatic'.

au·to·mat·ic
adj.

1.
a. Acting or operating in a manner essentially independent of external influence or control.
b. Self-regulating.

The car changes gears itself, hence it is automatic.

I understand the principles of changing the gears differ significantly from a typical auto transmission. I suppose the most proper term would be 'automatic manual transmission,' but that just seems ridiculous. If it's automatically manually changing gears, it's just automatic.

Either way, I see both sides and I think it has just degraded to arguing at this point hehe. It was fun to follow all day though.

cleoent

Ok, like i've been telling Ike, if you'd like to be ignorant, no skin off my back. I was iforming the original poster so he wouldn't be.