BMonkey

My naivety? You keep picking a fight man, just like before...

When I said aerodynamics, I was reffering to making a "flat-bottom" car or adding a large rear diffuser. This is the bottom of the Enzo

here's the bottom of a C5 corvette

As you can see, the spring mount sticks out and prevents more smooth underbody flow (which increases downforce, which isn't going to make the car have a higher top speed but will make it more stable during high speed cornerning).

Look at the C5 picture again and you'll notice why I said limited lowering. If you get that spring to close to the ground, you're going to be smashing the spring and the mounts against the pavement.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I didnt drive it long enough, like I said, it was like a 10 minute thing.

I dont know why, I have a pretty strong sense in cars. Its like some cars will just make me smile as soon as my butt is on the driver's seat.

M3 E96 did, G35x did, RX-8 did (obviously), and few others.

For some reason, I never felt excite about sitting in and driving the Z06

It does have lots of horse, TONS of horse I gotta say. but hmm, thats about it. Maybe I dont have enough skills. who knows.

but no matter what, This car does not deserve the 400K price tag. Thats just my opinion.

digitalSniperX1

lol, don't be sensitive man. The naivety wasn't a slam on anyone. It's easy to be lulled into thinking that someone like Jeremy Clarkson is completely objective in his evaluations.

I'm not going to compare the bottom of a $650,000 dollar car to the bottom of a $100,000 dollar car.

The fact that we are comparing them at all does however speak to the Corvette's value.

And the fact they make such a car for so much less is in fact an engineering achievment.

We don't compare Civics to RX-8's and we don't compare 350z's to 911's.

And rarely, do we compare 70,000 dollar cars to 300,000 dollar cars, with the Z06 being one of the very few exceptions.

Finally, for street application, the Corvette's aerodynamics are just fine.

Oh, and people lower the corvette all the time. They may have to replace the leafsprings. Aww yes, yet another compromise.

BMonkey

That was just the best pic I found quickly, the F430 has a flat bottom too Don't forget however that the US imposes duties and tariffs on imports, which is part of the reason imports are more expensive, we love protecting US business.

RX8-Frontier

For those that aren't engineers.... A spring is a spring is a spring, regardless of what it physically looks like. torsion bars, leafs, and coils ALL use the same math functions to calculate spring rates. It doesn't matter one bit as far as FUNCTION of the spring goes whether it's a straight bar that twists, a leaf that bends, or a coil that compresses.

As to what type to use of the three, well the ONLY thing that matters there is how to attach it to the vehicle. In any given situation, if you have a completely clean slate to start from, and theoretically any amount of space/room available, then the 3 spring types would perform EXACTLY the same function. Only once the design is underway, and other considerations instead of the spring are thrown in does the decision to use one verses another take place.

There is no spring advantage to using a coil vs. a leaf vs. a torsion bar. The kinematic equations are the SAME regardless. So the type of spring to use isn't picked by the "springy" performance; it's picked by OTHER factors that really have absolutely nothing to do with how the spring performes it's primary duty (to bounce and reform).

Sorry to those that think otherwise, but that really is the simple reality. As to why engineers pick one type verses another, well, you'd have to talk to the actual engineer (or accountant, depending...) as to why they went one way verses another. But it's got nothing to do with the springiness (is that a word??) of the spring. The "advantages" or "disadvantages" to particular types of springs are due to the OTHER external physical reasons, not the spring itself.

Personally, I couldn't care less about a Corvette, regardless of what trim level it is. I can't stand the cars. They aren't a POS, performance wise, though; I just don't like them as they are "me too" cars, just like the mustang and the camaro... "Oh, you have a [corvette/mustang/camaro]?? Me too!". I don't like them for that single reason.

digitalSniperX1

When it comes to tariffs, the Europeans make us look pretty open.

In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet that a Ferrari costs as much in euros as it does in dollars.

Check it out and prove me wrong.

BMonkey

We don't live in Europe though....

digitalSniperX1

Well, I don't have much time to find how to configure a Ferrari in Europe. But if it's anything like a BMW where I found that even at 1.6 dollars/euro, a 3 series BMW costs about the same in Germany (in Euros) than a similar car here in the USA (in USD).

How's that if we're charging undue tarrifs on them?

See for yourself.

http://www.bmw.de/de/de/newvehicles/...figurator.html

digitalSniperX1

erm...400k isn't the price tag. That'd be around 70k for the one you drove and 100k for the car we're discussing.

The 400k includes a 300k premium being demanded by the dealers selling a limited production car. The MSRP is the price tag.

I'll say this again. I don't have 100k to spend on a car that I'd hate to drive everyday (because I'd wear out something that cost me 100k). I certainly don't have 400k to spend on anything other than a house. So neither price is acceptable to me.

But as I also said, if I earned Jay Leno's 15 million annually, who owns amongst his collection of cars a Maclaren F1 and several Corvettes, in addtion to Ferrari's, I'd probably have a much different answer.

One last thing, I can't afford one, and I've been a white collar worker for 20+ years.

BMonkey

They also have an effective public transportation system, part of where those high tariffs go.

digitalSniperX1

Berlin charges tarriffs on cars imported from Munich?

Public transportation for BMW factory workers? No BMW?

Ferrari drivers own the streets?

Free healthcare? (LOL @ Free)

BMonkey

Is this turning into semantics? They charge tariffs on cars imported from other countries and charge taxes on cars produced within their own country. Either way, there is an effective alternative to car ownership for a significant portion of the European population with the public transportation system.

My original point was that tariffs aid US automakers in making cars that cost american consumers less than imported ones. I know that in Europe the situation is reversed and me bringing up the public transportation there was to demonstrate that there was an alternative to paying those high vehicle costs (fuel, taxes/tariffs, base vehicle cost, maintenance, etc.) at all. In America though, our civil engineering has made it very difficult for most Americans to live daily without private transportation. Even without the tariffs, most European cars that rival the vette would still be more than the vette BUT not as significant of a gap and much less so for other cars (civic vs. cavalier, accord vs. impala, etc).

digitalSniperX1

Well a tarrif and a sales tax are very different taxes, not a matter of semantics.

In most foreign domestic markets, their own cars, i.e. that which are produced at home, are more expensive there than they are here. An S2000 sold in the US for example is cheaper here in US dollars than it is in Japan (in dollars converted to yen).

So, I was wondering where you figured US industries benefitted from protectionism. I can't see how since cars produced in Germany and Japan seem to cost the same, or more in their domestic markets.

I agree they pay much more in taxes in most foreign countries than we do, and that translates into higher costs doing business.

And, I thought we were discussing the expense of the cars and that tariffs here are so large that the 650 grand charged to a customer for a Ferrari have large tarrifs on them.

I don't know the figures, so I cannot prove anything here but I see no evidence that they do.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet import tariffs charged by the US as being far lower than what other countries charge. If that weren't true, US companies wouldn't be outsourcing its manufacturing in droves, which they do. And yes, I understand that more than tarriffs are involved and the list is long. But to be sure, if tarriffs were protecting US industry, then GM wouldn't be making engines in China and VW wouldn't be building Jettas in Mexico.

Sal Collaziano

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. The ZR1 is a 6-figure worthy "American" built car.. Though I also think paying $400k for it is ridiculous...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

whoever buying it must be fuxking nutz then.

hmm 100 msrp then maybe its not that bad ...

but Im still more interested in the GT-R than ZR1 ...

BMonkey

Well the most direct evidence of protectionism is how American vehicles sell in other countries. Compact Fords in Europe are the only ones I know of that have done decently well. Here in America for the longest time the US automakers have dominated our market (though that's been changing with the gas prices). It's not like they haven't tried to break into Europe or Japan, the cars just don't sell there.

I can't state what the cost of living is in Germany and Japan as compared to the US. CIA world factbook says US GDP per capita is highest but that's not a good measure as things like buying health insurance vs. government healthcare aren't really taken into account.

In the end, $413,000 for the ZR1 is ridiculous, but I'd say that about any car that gets inflated more than 20% above MSRP.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Well the most direct evidence of protectionism is how American vehicles sell in other countries.

Protectionism?

You'd have to be INSANE to buy an american car in Europe. It has nothing to do with protectionism, just reality. The only cars they sell there are for 'status' reasons - Escalade, Hummer, 300C, they even sell quite a few Jeeps, though with some really thrifty diesel engines that are not even on the US option sheet.

Is it protectionism when the Japanese refuse to buy a Corvette, if GM refuses to offer a steering wheel on the right?
Tokyo traffic + left-hand-drive = suicide.

S

digitalSniperX1

Probably the largest reason US cars don't sell in Europe is that the US car companies do not/have not addressed their market. It's not until recently that US branded cars make anything close to competitive in the small car segment. Of course, they're now paying for that mistake, a big mistake I might add, and the reasons are obvious.

They've put all their marbles in the SUV/Truck bag and left the passenger car, both midsized and small, to the Japanese. It should seem like deja-vu to them since the same set of dynamics allowed the Japanese to get a foothold in the US market.

Don't send Pintos and Vegas up against Civics and Corollas, or you'll loose, and they did.

As per European brands, statistics show that US brands fair better in many quality categories than do cars from Germany. From large BMW's (the 7 series has been historically a very poor car in terms of reliability) to VW's (most all of them have considerable reliability issues), US car makes score better statistically.

They don't score better than the 3 major brands from Japan, that being Nissan, Honda and Toyota.

With the brand image that US car makers have in their domestic markets, they'll have to be clearly better than their competitors, not just equal, and not just almost as good. But clearly better. They've earned that poor image. But today, they are producing some pretty competitive products. I didn't say better, I said competitive.


They'd best get busy in a hurry.

Mawnee

Heh, I demodded and traded in my 650RWHP Vette for my RX8. Granted mine was centrifugal as opposed to Positive displacement. I've regretted doing so nearly every day since. I cannot describe what it felt like to drive a car like that.

666RWHP(heh I know) my best time was a 10.99@133.

The ONLY reason I got rid of my vette is that I couldnt keep a driveline behind the power. Got tired of ripping the driveline out every other weekend to replace the Clutch, torque tube, couplers, ect. No fault of the car though, I was making over twice the HP the car was engineered for. I still have loads of random corvette parts in my garage

I would definetly be willing to pay a premium for a car with that kind of reliable power. But yea these dealers are insane. Same thing they did witht he Ford GT, Z06 ect....

About the corvette Lowering. I had mine dropped 1 inch on the stock bolts and I cannot imagine having it any lower. It took skill to get it over any odd humps or changing elevations without bottoming out. The spring bolts were never the issue, the car would bottom out at just about any point depending on the forces at a particular time.


And just for a little perspective for all the people arguing here. We are still trying to find a way to reliably Turbo our Rx8s to make as much power as a regular Vette comes with stock.

digitalSniperX1

Mawnee....you stated something that's obvious but seems to escape many that visit this site.....

"And just for a little perspective for all the people arguing here. We are still trying to find a way to reliably Turbo our Rx8s to make as much power as a regular Vette comes with stock."

What's becoming obvious is that this may in fact be an exercise in futility. I really like my RX-8. The balance in the suspension is fantastic for a car in its price category.

But turbocharging this car to get 300whp would probably make it both a toy and a chore. Not sure I'm willing to go there with a daily driver.

BMonkey

We were talking about protectionism in the domestic market, where American automakers have traditionally dominated foreign competitors and left them scratching their heads as to how to "crack" the US market, though now that's all changing.

For the rest of what you said, I totally agree. It angers me that US automakers have sat on their laurels, making cars that turn the most profit for their stock holders and execs rather than cars that represent the most advanced automobiles we're capable of producing at reasonable prices.