digitalSniperX1

He should be honored that I spent the time....now the bonehead who apparently can post a reply but can't read for ****, he deserves and will get silence as I have a little empathy for the mentally inept.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

In all seriousness, GM shouldn't lamely pronounce that they discourage markup over MSRP as if they have no control. They do have control. They could simply only allocate the ZR1 to dealers that agree to sell it at MSRP if they wanted to.

Either allow it, or don't. I could care less. But don't be so damn flaky about it, GM.

digitalSniperX1

Either way I don't care. I don't have the 100 grand to spend on car. If someone has the money to spend on it then good for them.

I'm not so sure GM has the control. I recall them being very careful with Saturn's pricing policy. There are laws that govern this. GM gets too close and they can (and probably have) beeen sued for violating franchise agreements and laws.

Also, singling out GM as the car company that allows this isn't true; they all do it even with cars not limited in production. Looke beneath you here and you'll find posts dated from 2002 where Mazda dealers were doing the same....not at the same rates, but then again, they'd make 50,000 of these a year if they could sell them for a profit.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

I've just not seen another automaker publicly say they 'frown on the practice' while doing nothing to stop it, and acting as if they can't.

I agree on your other points.

digitalSniperX1

Fair enough. But put yourself in GM's position. They have too many dealerships hanging by a thread. So those they want to see remain open, they'll coddle. On the other hand, you get the responses you see in here, which while maybe a biased sample, isn't all that far from their reality. GM's brand image is damaged. They are responsible for that, hence the responses you read on this board about this seemingly absurd pricing.

Subtract out the emotions such an example evokes, and an unbiased opinion would most likely be positive and that GM has done a good job with this product, even with the less than stellar interior. However, as I've posted in this thread, I've driven a '07 Z06 and the car wasn't the clunky poor riding rattle trap some here seem to believe; my RX8 has more rattles. It's interior was appealing to me, not that I'm the best critic in that area. Road isolation and ride were superior to the RX-8. My drive didn't extend to pushing the handling limits, but to be sure, it and and RX8 are not the same class of car.

But then again, they shouldn't be at more than twice the money, the Vette had better be better and it is.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

I agree that the Vette is an excellent product. I wish Clarkston would test the NEW one on Top Gear, after ridiculing the last gen. I'd especially like to see him test the Z06 and ZR1.

I've also driven in a Z06 many times. The interior is not cheap, though I think GM could improve the look. It was tight as a drum, and as a bonus, you actually could use it as a daily driver in the right climate - snow belt, no way (but why would you want to?).

Chevy and GM nailed it with the new Vette.

digitalSniperX1

Correct me if I'm mistaken. Isn't Clarkston the british guy who bitched about the "leaf springs" in the vette? If it is, I'd kindly suggest getting opinion from someone who doesn't think of coil springs as some new or high tech innovation.

The vette is what it is, Jeremy Clarkston opinions to the contrary, notwithstanding.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

No need to bash Clarkston, everybody has their own taste in cars.

At least he is a well known good driver. I would trust his Opinion.

I tried a Z06 once, nothing impressive other than its ultra high power, yea sure it feels great that its pushing you back to the seat, but thats about it.

I expect ZR1 to be around the same with maybe a bit better handling. but Vette has always been a muscle car, not my cup of tea. and I honestly do not think it worth 400 grand.

maybe under 150K

digitalSniperX1

His vette have more to do with his anti-american rants then they do about the car. That leaves his trustworthiness in doubt.

Interesting you like the vette only for its acceleration. The car does handle and ride well (ride for what it is). It is quiet also, when opened up made one of the best sounding engines I've heard.

It tracked like a bullet, not affected much if any by ruts worn into pavement (better than the RX-8 in that regard with much wider tires.) My vette did have a certain spookiness at the limit which took some getting used to.

I don't know about the C6 cars though. Only driven one of them and it was a Z06 and I was driving it for all of 2 (very spirited) miles, but not nearly enough.

TrochoidMagic

vette is a great car for $100k. its really is the bang-for-the-buck car to have that competes at that level.

but at $400k, its quite obvious it'll only go to the hard-core vette enthusiasts. and quite honestly, i'd get a ferrari for that price. but thats just me.

nothings changed... the ppl who can own a vette then, aren't barely getting by. but is just a sports muscle car. and they are worth collecting for those that grew up in that era.

i don't hate that GM's recipe is a big motor in a light car. so-so interior. and a cost efficient material for lightness... not much different in how a NSX tries to offer their version of an exotic.

these cars are a bargain in its own ways against exotic competitors. and as much as i'd like to remain neutral in all this, i hope noone finds offense in this that i'd have to admit myself to agree with b-monkey on this...

for that price.... if the scenario was a "limited" production super duper amped up NSX for $500k with 300 units or whatever... its sad to say if given $500k to buy just one car, i'd probably treat myself to a ferrari experience with a F430 scuderia.

i have honda background (not a dumb street racer kinda background) just to clarify things. and though i still think its a great vette... but i'd imagine it like its a super limited NSX of sorts. and in this case, i think that ferrari would be a real good buy.

truly no offense to anyone. and dollar for dollar, car for car, brand vs. brand... the offerings of that vette does not match its price.
SO, may it only go to the right vette owners.

digitalSniperX1

I may be going out on a limb, but those forking over 400k on a limited production vette aren't getting groceries in it. They probably have someone doing that for them. When they do drive, they're probably choosing from a dozen or more different cars, one or more of which is a Ferrari.

No car is worth the asking price if you can't afford it. The criteria used to purchase at a certain price begins with being able to pay for it; in fact, probably the first thing that enters one's mind when making a purchase decision of that size is how much am I going to spend.

playdoh43

i highly doubt anyones going to be buying at that price, most rich people didnt become rich by being stupid. they can just goto the next dealership and pay a 50k markup for ~200k instead.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

some old man in my neighborhood, I think he is in his 60s 70s, drives a Porsche 911 to get groceries. Yeah its not 400K car. but its still over 100K.

who said rich people never use their *expensive toys* to get groceries ?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I am a retard, but thats the only impression that the z06 gave me. If I have stayed longer it might change my point of view. I just drove for like 10 minutes. thats about it.

For Clarkston, Im not sure if he is personally anti-american or what, but when it comes to cars, when was the last time that an american made car was actually good (so called "supercar"-wise)?

Ford GT? its just a bunch of parts from "here and there", then Ford just snapped them together, SC the engine and call it a day. not much R&D I will say. and it did not even score that well in real world. it does not worth its what 140K price tag at all.
Vette ? after so many years, its basic concept(big engine, not so great handling, still leaf springs) is still the same. maybe its good thing to their loyal fans, but time has move on and its time for GM to give it an "extreme makeover GM edition". Not just change some parts and sell it for 400K.
Viper ? Im not sure if this is an really american home made car, but this car is known to have super **** *** poor handling, yeah it has tons of horse, but for what ?

Look at the rest of the world, take BMW for example, in the last 10 years, they changed a LOT, yes some were just bullshit like the X6 and the 1 series. but look at their M3/M5/M6. they're really impressive, the moment you see and sit into the car you can feel that they did spent a lot of time and effort into making it.

People from the Far east, nissan, they're not even a big auto company,but they have the power to make the R35 to **** their Euro Competitors off. Stock for stock it beat F430 even Lambo hands down. and its selling for like what? 80 grand ?

What did American car companies did for the past lets say, 10 years ? Hummer H2/3 ? Yukon XL ? Explorer Expedition ? They're big and comfortable, but thats about it. I can get comfort from X5 or GX, while giving me more mpg and features.

That's how I see engineering.

There are reasons why so many americans are NOT buying home-made cars. the reasons are pretty obvious. Ford learned something, but they paid a heavy price(filed for bankruptcy protection) Lets see how long till GM will learn.

YaXMaNGTO

Ten things you didn't know about the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and the LS9 engine.

• There is roughly $1000 worth of a special clear coat that protects the carbon-fiber bodywork from ultra violet light.
  
• The Performance Build Center in Wixom, Michigan, will produce roughly 45 LS9 engines a week, and only employs 38 people, 25 of whom build engines.
  
• The Performance Build Center has an open house on August 14th.
  
• Each LS9 is built from start to finish by one engine builder.
  
• It takes just under 5 hours to assemble an engine.
  
• EPA mileage ratings of the ZR1 will be city/highway 14/20 mpg.
  
• The supercharger consumes about 70 horsepower, so the crankshaft actually transmits 708 bhp, but only 638 to the flywheel.
  
• For durability testing, the LS9 has seen over 6800 cumulative hours on a dyno.
  
• Just over 75 percent of the parts in an LS9 are carryover from other small blocks. There are only 100 new parts, of which 25 are just modified parts.
  
• The Eaton 4-lobe rotors are actually sections of an aluminum extrusion. The original extrusion is a single 200-ft. long piece.

RotaryFiend

Ouch, $400k...

So, the Corvette isn't a piece of a garbage and it comes from America? We should set something on fire...

It's got one badass supercharged V8 in it, it isn't heavy, and apparently engineers actually thought about the design of the car. It's not a bad car, but even for $100k it isn't that great of a deal.

For $100k you could buy an RX-8 with a turbo 3-rotor, wider wheels/tires, and a nice KONI suspension that would run circles around America's pride 'n joy without using any pushrods or leaf springs.

digitalSniperX1

^ Another engineering genius ^

RotaryFiend

Thanks, that's rude.

Why are you such a corvette fanboi?

digitalSniperX1

A fan of the the Corvette, perhaps. I guess you could say that now. Having owned one, I'm probably more of a veteran.

I am however a fan of this site, and would like to see at least the majority of its members engage in some degree of critical thinking.

BMonkey

Yes... I often wonder why if leaf springs are so great, the C6R race car uses coil-overs....

digitalSniperX1

An illegitimate comparison.

The packaging problems in a production car are not equal to the packaging problems in a car built around a tubular framework.

Find someone smarter than that technical imbecile from the UK to parrot.

Start your thinking with the leaf springs cost a lot more and move on from there.

And since you're such a fan of cut and paste, I decided I'd do it for you:

What are the advantages for the Vette?

This is an article written around the time the C4 was released. It covers a lot of the reasons why GM retained the leaf suspension

http://web.telia.com/~u60113742/misc...ass_spring.gif

The big advantages are:

-It weights A LOT LESS than coil springs. One leaf replaces two coils. The two coil springs weigh 3 times as much as the one leaf. Additionally the leaf is placed at the bottom of the car. In addition to removing weight you lower the CG.

-It acts as an anti role bar. The article above explains how this works so I won’t. The advantage is you can run lighter anti-role bars because the springs are taking care of part of the job for you.

-The leaf springs never wear out. The vendor of these springs has never had to replace one due to fatigue failure. Coil springs to were out but you typically don’t notice on smaller, lighter cars. You do see it more on old, heavy Caddies and such. The improved fatigue life was really evident compared to the C3’s steel leaf spring. Thus this is an advantage over coils but not a big one.



What are the drawbacks for the Vette?

-They are expensive. We normally don’t think of leaves as the expensive suspension but in the case of the Corvette, coils would be cheaper. The Vette already has all the parts a coil sprung double A arm suspension would use. Pull the leaf off, replace the shock with a coil over and you’ve converted the Vette. Since the rest of the system is the same, the cost comes down to the price of 2 coils or one spring. Well if it was a steal leaf spring it might be cheaper (remember truck suspension is cheaper because the leaves also act as links).

BMonkey

DigitalSniperX1, your ignorance is always good for a laugh. This time though I'm not going to bother to teach you why you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry.

Oh and your link doesn't seem to be working.

digitalSniperX1

What, no more colored thinking?
I'm distraught.
My engineering career will now suffer.

For those who've can read an equation from basic high school algebra/physics:

A spring, with spring constant k1.

E=1/2 k1 x^2, F= kx (energy required to displace spring = 1/2 the product of the spring constant and displacement squared).


For those of you who know what a differential equation is, the forces in a mass spring system, with no forcing function, is described by

Md^2x/dt^2 + k0 dx/dt + k1x = 0

and with applied forcing function

Md^2x/dt^2 + k0 dx/dt + k1x = F(t)

This equation, transformed to the s-plane or Laplace transform.....

Ms^2+ k0 s + k1 = F(s)

These equations are the same for coil springs and leaf springs, they do not differ.

These equations have no color, they are in black and white.

For those of you who think coil springs are some high tech innovation...see BMonkey, he'll tell you why and he'll tell you in all manners of colored thinking.

digitalSniperX1

Md^2x/dt^2 + // product of your car's mass and acceleration in system

k0 dx/dt + // product of your car's shock viscous friction and speed in system

k1x // your car's spring, coil or leaf, constand and displacement.

RotaryFiend

I think there is more to spring selection than just barebone physics. Those laws are made for "ideal" springs right?