New motor installed... Wont start
08-05-2010, 10:58 AM
#51
08-05-2010, 11:02 AM
#52
Talked to Chris. He confirmed that the 1000cc injectors go in the secondary positions. so injectors are in the correct location. Only other injector issues would be if i got the wiring swapped around on them. I know that the one coming off the main harness is the rear injector so its correct. However the other three i would have to check again to make sure that they did not get switched around since they all come off thier own individual harness for injectors.
i will also do a vacuume test and see if it will hold vac or not. anything else i should try or look into. still thinking its a spark issue ( could alwasy swap back in the OEM coils and see what happens). That is if the injector wiring is not swapped.
i will also do a vacuume test and see if it will hold vac or not. anything else i should try or look into. still thinking its a spark issue ( could alwasy swap back in the OEM coils and see what happens). That is if the injector wiring is not swapped.
Rather than an intake vacuum test, which will probably yield a measurement in the 5-6 in./hg. range, can you manage to get a MAF reading at whatever kind of idle you can muster up? It should be in the 5-6 gms./sec. range. Chances are that it will be all over the place.
08-05-2010, 11:08 AM
#53
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I htink my plan of action is as follows.
1. clean up the mess i now have for a garage.
2. swap out the LS coils to the stock ones and give it a shot. (you never know and its easy)
3. tear off the intake and verify wire colors in the lips for the injectors to make sure i have the right ones on the right injectors.
4. search for any other issues while i have the itake off including missed grounds and anything else obvious
5. unpackage the INT-x and inspect the microtech unit. Also needs to be taken out of the shinny little box it comes in because i managed to snap the port off that the VAC line goes into that give it its reading last night.
6. reinstall intake, see if i can pull start it again, and get a reading off the MAF.
what will the MAF reading tell you. just out of curiousity.
i can do some logging with the scanalyser but only when the stock ECU is in. if i do it with the INT-x it shoes some funky stuff since the INT-x is altering it all.
1. clean up the mess i now have for a garage.
2. swap out the LS coils to the stock ones and give it a shot. (you never know and its easy)
3. tear off the intake and verify wire colors in the lips for the injectors to make sure i have the right ones on the right injectors.
4. search for any other issues while i have the itake off including missed grounds and anything else obvious
5. unpackage the INT-x and inspect the microtech unit. Also needs to be taken out of the shinny little box it comes in because i managed to snap the port off that the VAC line goes into that give it its reading last night.
6. reinstall intake, see if i can pull start it again, and get a reading off the MAF.
what will the MAF reading tell you. just out of curiousity.
i can do some logging with the scanalyser but only when the stock ECU is in. if i do it with the INT-x it shoes some funky stuff since the INT-x is altering it all.
08-05-2010, 11:11 AM
#54
It will tell us what the PCM is trying to do with regard to idle control and it'll inform us as to the volume of air needed to keep the engine running. Incoming air is everything and so is the MAF sensor's ability to read it.
The thing with the RX-8/Renesis is that issues like these usually turn out to be something easily fixed. Unless Kan forgot to install the apex seals, which is a ludicrous thought.
Your particular problem is pretty close to what I encountered when I rebuilt my own engine and messed up the fuel injector harness, btw.
My guess is that it'll either be that or something to do with the intake system.
The thing with the RX-8/Renesis is that issues like these usually turn out to be something easily fixed. Unless Kan forgot to install the apex seals, which is a ludicrous thought.
Your particular problem is pretty close to what I encountered when I rebuilt my own engine and messed up the fuel injector harness, btw.
My guess is that it'll either be that or something to do with the intake system.
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 08-05-2010 at 11:13 AM.
08-05-2010, 11:13 AM
#55
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lol i think he had it all under controll. There was actually another 8 sitting there with an esmeril kit on it that he was rebuilding and tuning when i dropped the motor off. I have talked to him all through out that build also and everything turned out fine on that one. Even made it through a dyno session lol. It was owned by a person in MN i believe.
Last edited by Phish806; 08-05-2010 at 11:31 AM.
08-05-2010, 11:32 AM
#56
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Its funny you mention this though because when i did the install i did have the injector clips on the wrong injectors and already had to move them. So it wont hurt to double check. just sucks removing that intake again. however, it does get easier the more you do it i have realized.
08-05-2010, 11:49 AM
#57
Its funny you mention this though because when i did the install i did have the injector clips on the wrong injectors and already had to move them. So it wont hurt to double check. just sucks removing that intake again. however, it does get easier the more you do it i have realized.
I have also seen many others make the exact same mistake that I did and I even triple-check my own work ever since then.
08-05-2010, 12:15 PM
#58
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yeah i got the wire colors to each connector to make sure and verify when i get off work. I hope its this simple of an issue. It would be nice to get this thing wrapped up finally. i suppose i will know more tonight when i make it home and get a chance to look at the car.
08-05-2010, 12:54 PM
#60
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Just bugs me. Its one of those things where while your connecting the clips to the injectors your thinkin to yourself - boy i hope i get these on right. lol.
08-05-2010, 01:58 PM
#61
OK, pull started the car. It does start but does not want to stay running. It will hold a constant smooth rpm if you feed it the gas for it. if you let off the gas it just falls right past idle and does not want to idle at all. also it breaks up around 3000 rpm if you try going any higher.
so all in all it seems to be missing and wont hold idle.
so all in all it seems to be missing and wont hold idle.
Should take about 15 mins for the car to keep its own idle. If you just held it at 3k for a few seconds its going to die out for sure and be even harder to start the next time.
I put a cinderblock and a piece of wood and left it there running for a few fan cycles.
even after that it almost didn't hold its idle then it stabilized.
P.S. I now have a little under 1.8k miles
08-05-2010, 02:07 PM
#65
No unusual noise. Unplug the crank angle sensor and crank the engine for 10-20 seconds until you build oil pressure. You can check for sure by cracking the oil filter loose and seeing if any oil drips out. IF there is oil there you are good to go. Plug the crank angle sensor back in and fire it up. Give it some throttle when it first starts, bounce it around 1500-3500rpm.
After it clears up and seems to be running smoothly (about a minute) SLOWLY back off the throttle and see if it seems to want to idle below 1000. Try not to let it die, because it will be a bitch to get restarted if you do. IF it idles, let it...if not, use a brick or similar on the gas pedal to hold it about 2000rpm. After 5-10 minutes the PCM will defeat this and reset the idle to normal in spite of the gas pedal, if the gas pedal position is not varied, so move it a little every few minutes.
Once you have it so it will stay running with you out of the car, go out and check for leaks. Expect smoke from the exhaust and in the engine bay as it burns off the exhaust components and radiator etc. Do not shut it off unless you have to for some reason.
An IR thermometer is nice to check oil and coolant temps at the engine and heat exchangers themselves since the gauges in these cars are useless.
After about a half hour it should pretty much idle on its own. Go for a drive, bearing in mind you'll have to slip the clutch more than normal because it will have a weak low end and will be easy to stall. Stay under about 4000rpm and half throttle. DO a short run around your neighborhood, come back and check for leaks etc. Then take it out on the highway for 10-20 miles if you want. This helps a lot.
Now you can come back home and shut it off ,and see how hard it is to restart. The easier it restarts, the better compression you have, and the better job of building it you did/better parts you used. Also check and top off fluids after it has cooled off.
For break in I would change the oil at 500 miles and stay under 4000 for at least that long also. By the time you have 1000 on it I would be redlining it.
After it clears up and seems to be running smoothly (about a minute) SLOWLY back off the throttle and see if it seems to want to idle below 1000. Try not to let it die, because it will be a bitch to get restarted if you do. IF it idles, let it...if not, use a brick or similar on the gas pedal to hold it about 2000rpm. After 5-10 minutes the PCM will defeat this and reset the idle to normal in spite of the gas pedal, if the gas pedal position is not varied, so move it a little every few minutes.
Once you have it so it will stay running with you out of the car, go out and check for leaks. Expect smoke from the exhaust and in the engine bay as it burns off the exhaust components and radiator etc. Do not shut it off unless you have to for some reason.
An IR thermometer is nice to check oil and coolant temps at the engine and heat exchangers themselves since the gauges in these cars are useless.
After about a half hour it should pretty much idle on its own. Go for a drive, bearing in mind you'll have to slip the clutch more than normal because it will have a weak low end and will be easy to stall. Stay under about 4000rpm and half throttle. DO a short run around your neighborhood, come back and check for leaks etc. Then take it out on the highway for 10-20 miles if you want. This helps a lot.
Now you can come back home and shut it off ,and see how hard it is to restart. The easier it restarts, the better compression you have, and the better job of building it you did/better parts you used. Also check and top off fluids after it has cooled off.
For break in I would change the oil at 500 miles and stay under 4000 for at least that long also. By the time you have 1000 on it I would be redlining it.
08-05-2010, 02:10 PM
#66
here is the page as well...
There is a slew of great info in the thread if you can sift through the B.S. Many good contributions from RR, CRH, Easy, MM, and a few others. I cant thank them enough.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/my-engine-rebuild-195276/page13/
There is a slew of great info in the thread if you can sift through the B.S. Many good contributions from RR, CRH, Easy, MM, and a few others. I cant thank them enough.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/my-engine-rebuild-195276/page13/
08-05-2010, 02:14 PM
#67
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When i get home i will verify teh wiring on the injectors. ( the starting warm up procedure would not explain the breakup around 3000 rpm. also it will nto start on its own at all needs pull started). fter i check on the injectors i will give it a pull start - if needed- and give this a try on holding it at a rpm for a bit of time. hopefully things go well and nothign major is an issue.
08-05-2010, 02:25 PM
#68
Its a new(ish) engine it can do all sorts of weird crap. But if the fuel lines are crossed that can have a major effect. I would also suggest double checking your vacuum lines to the SSV and VDI. verifying that they are plugged in to the proper connections under the UIM.
08-05-2010, 02:38 PM
#69
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pretty sure the vaccume lines are attached and no issue there but yes, i plan on checking all of that since i have to pull the intake off anyway . thanks for givin me a couple things to look out for though. Appreciate the help guys.
08-05-2010, 08:07 PM
#71
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Ok. a little update for ya. i tore the intake off and got to lookin at the wiring for the injectors. Turns out Charles was right. i had the P1's and the P2's wires flip floped. I swapped them, put the motor back together and tried to start it. Still have no start.
SO... i pull started teh car again. it popped right off on the pull start and sounded alot smoother when i was holding it at a rpm of aroudn 2k. i let off and it eventually started to idle. I then got the bright idea to try and back it back down the street and into my drive. I was only about a half block away. Well, i killed it when backing up. so another pull start. It would pull start every time rather easy, but will not hold idle now. It also still will not start off of the starter.
when holding the rpm at around 2 to 3 k the AFR were around 13 14 and 15.
whats the next step here guys... not srue what to do. the last time i put a board on the gas pedal and got it to sit at 2k. it sat there for clost to ten minutes then the car just shut off... thats the last time i had it running. also the oil temp was starting to get hot. it got up to around 245. i will check the coolant again but i know its full but i will double check.
SO... i pull started teh car again. it popped right off on the pull start and sounded alot smoother when i was holding it at a rpm of aroudn 2k. i let off and it eventually started to idle. I then got the bright idea to try and back it back down the street and into my drive. I was only about a half block away. Well, i killed it when backing up. so another pull start. It would pull start every time rather easy, but will not hold idle now. It also still will not start off of the starter.
when holding the rpm at around 2 to 3 k the AFR were around 13 14 and 15.
whats the next step here guys... not srue what to do. the last time i put a board on the gas pedal and got it to sit at 2k. it sat there for clost to ten minutes then the car just shut off... thats the last time i had it running. also the oil temp was starting to get hot. it got up to around 245. i will check the coolant again but i know its full but i will double check.
08-05-2010, 11:52 PM
#73
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the newer pcm flashes wont let you just sit there and hold it at high rpm. the pcm will force the throttle closed to try to bring it back down to normal idle. your car wont idle so it just shuts off.
why wont it idle? bad or dirty maf/bad or fouled eshaft sensor/bad throttle position sensor/ needs a good drive...
why wont it idle? bad or dirty maf/bad or fouled eshaft sensor/bad throttle position sensor/ needs a good drive...
08-06-2010, 07:05 AM
#75
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Yeah this is all without the INT-X. but as far as it idleing, it should be able to do that wihtout the INT-x with no problem. i also cleaned off the e shaft sensor before re installing. I can nake a tester to the other parts and test and see if they check out ok. I will also try cleaning the MAF.
So you think i should throw the INT-X back in and give it a shot with it in. In my opinoin a low RPM like that its not goin to make much of a difference. But hey, what do i know.
and... i cant give it a good drive, it wont idle so no stoppin. or pushin the clutch in and lettin the rpms fall down to idle.
should i try the holding it at 3k rpm. seems kind ahigh for just sittin there lol.. wont the car get pretty hot also.
When i try to crank it with the starter, it still gets nothing. Does not even sound like its trying to fire just a really fast rotation of the motor but its not stumbleing like its hittin on any.
So you think i should throw the INT-X back in and give it a shot with it in. In my opinoin a low RPM like that its not goin to make much of a difference. But hey, what do i know.
and... i cant give it a good drive, it wont idle so no stoppin. or pushin the clutch in and lettin the rpms fall down to idle.
should i try the holding it at 3k rpm. seems kind ahigh for just sittin there lol.. wont the car get pretty hot also.
When i try to crank it with the starter, it still gets nothing. Does not even sound like its trying to fire just a really fast rotation of the motor but its not stumbleing like its hittin on any.