an RX8er's rebuild thread
04-04-2012, 03:50 PM
#57
04-04-2012, 06:26 PM
#60
thanks for the defense
at least we are doing something right
Confirmed (and I just got a budget increased from my "financial advisor" woohoo)
On a serious note... I like the oil as a culprit for wear on bearing and possibly the wear on the irons but that doesn’t mean that the irons can’t be refaced and reused correct? I think with more emphasis on cooling and oil type/pressure I can add an extra level of protection. I also can’t (and by absolutely no means am I knowledgeable as say olddragger
) imagine anything what else would cause the kind of wear we found but I am always open to suggestions
04-04-2012, 06:52 PM
#61
its lubrication--no doubt.
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
04-04-2012, 07:06 PM
#62
its lubrication--no doubt.
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
04-04-2012, 07:10 PM
#63
its lubrication--no doubt.
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
Now when a mazda rebuild is done they use the same rotor bearings if at all possible so who knows how many miles are on them, but the rest--no doubt.
On oils, look at the hths (high tempt high shear) value--thats the one that is the most important and that is why I am very comfortable in using a 5w30 REDLINE oil. It has the value of a lot of 40w dinos etc.
The irons MAY be usable. I cant tell enough about the scoring on the outer edge where it appeared your rotor was touching.
Measure the stationary gears very well!!
You may be able to let goopy work on the housings--did both have the sparkplug cracks? Worth looking into?
I would micro blue a lot of stuff--I LIKE IT!!
But heck cant 9K lend you his engine for a while---his is never going to get running!!
Now sit back down ole buddy--i was just bugging on your tater chips--lol!
is there anything specific I could photo that would help evaluate the irons? I did a measure the wear and it was about .005
there were no spark plug "cracks" just a little pitting. Over all I think the housings were in better shape than I anticipated (other than the 2 small cracks)
04-04-2012, 10:40 PM
#65
didnt answer your question,
is there anything specific I could photo that would help evaluate the irons? I did a measure the wear and it was about .005
there were no spark plug "cracks" just a little pitting. Over all I think the housings were in better shape than I anticipated (other than the 2 small cracks)
is there anything specific I could photo that would help evaluate the irons? I did a measure the wear and it was about .005
there were no spark plug "cracks" just a little pitting. Over all I think the housings were in better shape than I anticipated (other than the 2 small cracks)
not to mention, can you even lap a RX-8 side plate? it's probably doable but forgot why it's not recommended.
if I were u Im just gonna bite the bullet and get all new housings
Edited : Remember now, because of the O-ring grooves.
you gonna use new apex and stuff right? mmm I wonder if there are better side seal springs than stock.
Last edited by nycgps; 04-04-2012 at 11:05 PM.
04-05-2012, 06:18 AM
#66
.005 ? isn't that too much already ? the nitrite treatment is only about .002 thick.
not to mention, can you even lap a RX-8 side plate? it's probably doable but forgot why it's not recommended.
if I were u Im just gonna bite the bullet and get all new housings
Edited : Remember now, because of the O-ring grooves.
you gonna use new apex and stuff right? mmm I wonder if there are better side seal springs than stock.
not to mention, can you even lap a RX-8 side plate? it's probably doable but forgot why it's not recommended.
if I were u Im just gonna bite the bullet and get all new housings
Edited : Remember now, because of the O-ring grooves.
you gonna use new apex and stuff right? mmm I wonder if there are better side seal springs than stock.
no one to this point has commented on the missing nitrite treatment on the rotor...is this of no concern?
yes I was going to get kit c from atkins plus 2 housings and I have not (to this point) read anything about side seals....Im all ears team
04-05-2012, 06:28 AM
#67
Please... shut up.
Grooves and nitrite\hard coating... You can relap the side plates but over a certain amount you just take the hard layer off so they wear a bit faster. Rebuilding an engine is expensive if done right.
.005 ? isn't that too much already ? the nitrite treatment is only about .002 thick.
not to mention, can you even lap a RX-8 side plate? it's probably doable but forgot why it's not recommended.
if I were u Im just gonna bite the bullet and get all new housings
Edited : Remember now, because of the O-ring grooves.
you gonna use new apex and stuff right? mmm I wonder if there are better side seal springs than stock.
not to mention, can you even lap a RX-8 side plate? it's probably doable but forgot why it's not recommended.
if I were u Im just gonna bite the bullet and get all new housings
Edited : Remember now, because of the O-ring grooves.
you gonna use new apex and stuff right? mmm I wonder if there are better side seal springs than stock.
04-05-2012, 06:42 AM
#68
man...I was hoping to avoid new side plate if at all possible.
no one to this point has commented on the missing nitrite treatment on the rotor...is this of no concern?
yes I was going to get kit c from atkins plus 2 housings and I have not (to this point) read anything about side seals....Im all ears team
no one to this point has commented on the missing nitrite treatment on the rotor...is this of no concern?
yes I was going to get kit c from atkins plus 2 housings and I have not (to this point) read anything about side seals....Im all ears team
you can actually get it re-nitrite, there are shops doing just that, it will cost less than buying new plate of course, but shipping to both ways might kill the deal, it's really for plates thats NLA from Mazda (12A and some early 13B engines)
As for the rotor, it's hard to tell from the pictures, you talking about the white anti-friction coating near the side edges of the rotor right? well the rotor has been kissing the side plates so I'm sure it's all gone by now, mmm, depends on how bad it is ur rotor might be good/trash.
+1 tell me about it, lol
Last edited by nycgps; 04-05-2012 at 06:44 AM.
04-05-2012, 08:36 AM
#69
send the housings to Goopy--he will be be able to tell you if he can get them usable for you. No sense in buying stuff if you dont have too. He does great work and is straight up. Look at some of his work on line. Call Paul at Mazmart--good used irons are easier to come by than housings. If the irons are scored--i wouldnt use them.
You really need to measure EVERYTHING very carefully. That much bearing wear would make even measuring the e shaft a priority.
Put the race bearings in the rotors, get some oil channel work done, get some coolant passage work done ( especially around the sparkplug area), get the upgraded oil pressure relief,
Ok just for giggles and I feel talkative this morning--here is how I would build an engine:
1- get the housings treated per goopy or use new ones.
2- the irons would get inspected per Paul/Rick at Mazmart ( they are close to me)
3- I would microblue, the oil pump and chain, the stationary gears (all gears), all bearings, side seals and all rotor seals I could except the apex's ( see number 6) and, the e shaft.
4- oil channel and coolant channel work
5- upgraded oil pressure regulator
6- tall rx7 apex seal--ceramic NGK's
7- the stouder side seal springs and rx7 corner seals ( duh)
8- possible stud kit
9- BNC porting
10 get the exhaust sleeves worked on ( if I was catless)
11- run an secondary electric water pump for extra low speed flow and cool down.
Now if I was going to FI the engine--I would also put the rx7 rotors in it.
Then after the divorce, and the 3nd morgage on the house was finished--i would buy some tires so I could drive the damn thing
You really need to measure EVERYTHING very carefully. That much bearing wear would make even measuring the e shaft a priority.
Put the race bearings in the rotors, get some oil channel work done, get some coolant passage work done ( especially around the sparkplug area), get the upgraded oil pressure relief,
Ok just for giggles and I feel talkative this morning--here is how I would build an engine:
1- get the housings treated per goopy or use new ones.
2- the irons would get inspected per Paul/Rick at Mazmart ( they are close to me)
3- I would microblue, the oil pump and chain, the stationary gears (all gears), all bearings, side seals and all rotor seals I could except the apex's ( see number 6) and, the e shaft.
4- oil channel and coolant channel work
5- upgraded oil pressure regulator
6- tall rx7 apex seal--ceramic NGK's
7- the stouder side seal springs and rx7 corner seals ( duh)
8- possible stud kit
9- BNC porting
10 get the exhaust sleeves worked on ( if I was catless)
11- run an secondary electric water pump for extra low speed flow and cool down.
Now if I was going to FI the engine--I would also put the rx7 rotors in it.
Then after the divorce, and the 3nd morgage on the house was finished--i would buy some tires so I could drive the damn thing
04-05-2012, 09:27 AM
#70
send the housings to Goopy--he will be be able to tell you if he can get them usable for you. No sense in buying stuff if you dont have too. He does great work and is straight up. Look at some of his work on line. Call Paul at Mazmart--good used irons are easier to come by than housings. If the irons are scored--i wouldnt use them.
You really need to measure EVERYTHING very carefully. That much bearing wear would make even measuring the e shaft a priority.
Put the race bearings in the rotors, get some oil channel work done, get some coolant passage work done ( especially around the sparkplug area), get the upgraded oil pressure relief,
Ok just for giggles and I feel talkative this morning--here is how I would build an engine:
1- get the housings treated per goopy or use new ones.
2- the irons would get inspected per Paul/Rick at Mazmart ( they are close to me)
3- I would microblue, the oil pump and chain, the stationary gears (all gears), all bearings, side seals and all rotor seals I could except the apex's ( see number 6) and, the e shaft.
4- oil channel and coolant channel work
5- upgraded oil pressure regulator
6- tall rx7 apex seal--ceramic NGK's
7- the stouder side seal springs and rx7 corner seals ( duh)
8- possible stud kit
9- BNC porting
10 get the exhaust sleeves worked on ( if I was catless)
11- run an secondary electric water pump for extra low speed flow and cool down.
Now if I was going to FI the engine--I would also put the rx7 rotors in it.
Then after the divorce, and the 3nd morgage on the house was finished--i would buy some tires so I could drive the damn thing
You really need to measure EVERYTHING very carefully. That much bearing wear would make even measuring the e shaft a priority.
Put the race bearings in the rotors, get some oil channel work done, get some coolant passage work done ( especially around the sparkplug area), get the upgraded oil pressure relief,
Ok just for giggles and I feel talkative this morning--here is how I would build an engine:
1- get the housings treated per goopy or use new ones.
2- the irons would get inspected per Paul/Rick at Mazmart ( they are close to me)
3- I would microblue, the oil pump and chain, the stationary gears (all gears), all bearings, side seals and all rotor seals I could except the apex's ( see number 6) and, the e shaft.
4- oil channel and coolant channel work
5- upgraded oil pressure regulator
6- tall rx7 apex seal--ceramic NGK's
7- the stouder side seal springs and rx7 corner seals ( duh)
8- possible stud kit
9- BNC porting
10 get the exhaust sleeves worked on ( if I was catless)
11- run an secondary electric water pump for extra low speed flow and cool down.
Now if I was going to FI the engine--I would also put the rx7 rotors in it.
Then after the divorce, and the 3nd morgage on the house was finished--i would buy some tires so I could drive the damn thing
2. Yea, if it's lap-able then just lap it and re-use it. if not, mmm, options are sell it as scrape metal, get a few bux back and buy/use new ones, or get it re-nitrite.
3. First time heard of Microblue, seems to be a good idea, but why not just cryo-treated everything ?
4. u can't open the oil passage too much, coolant passage is doable.
5. Agreed.
6. not sure if taller ones are needed for stock level power, but I would get Ceramic Apex whenever possible. even if u want to use Rx7 seals u gotta mill the rotors. so that's another "extra cost"
7. stouder ? don't think rx-7 corner piece works for rx-8. I know u can't use MSP corner seals in 7, it will destroy the engine.
8. not needed for stock level power. it's doable if u want to.
9. Street port that sucker! even just cleaning the cast marks up will help the flow.
10. the cooling better be good ...
11. Just buy Mazmart's RE-Pump.
04-05-2012, 10:34 AM
#72
You did have one iron with some wear marks might want to look into getting a used one, I had no wear marks on mine so I just re used them all with no lapping or finishing. For the ones that did not have wear that you can feel I wouldn't worry about lapping, you will need to get a nitride coating if you do.
Here's some info about the nitride coating.
http://rotaryresponse.com/Rotary%20Engine.htm
Check with Atkins and Rotary Resurrection and see if they got a good useable iron. Probably looking at 200 shipped.
Here's some info about the nitride coating.
http://rotaryresponse.com/Rotary%20Engine.htm
Check with Atkins and Rotary Resurrection and see if they got a good useable iron. Probably looking at 200 shipped.
04-05-2012, 11:53 AM
#73
yea youre right --if you do use the taller seals then you have to use the correct corner seals for them though.
Hard to beat the oem apex seals if you are staying na--but if you ever want to FI.......hehehe.
Microblue is much more than surface finishing. Read up on it. It's kind of amazing actually. Craig--the guy that owns the company--is a great guy that knows his stuff. you should see what he has done for nascar engines, tractor pull engine turbo's. diesal engines and drivetrains, motorcross bikes, road racing bikes, etc etc. Rotor heads have not discovered him yet as we dont have many moving parts I guess? But he has been around for years. We have talked and he knows the rotary engine pretty good and has just been waiting. look at some you tubes vids on it too. I turned BNC on to them too--he said he was going to call.
Mine will get er done sometime this year ( spare engine), plus hopefully the diff and the u joints ( what-- u joints---what---gasp!!! hes crazy.....)
On the housings--what goopy does is make them flat again. So the new seals will have a flat surface to mate too. It seems to work really well.
Hard to beat the oem apex seals if you are staying na--but if you ever want to FI.......hehehe.
Microblue is much more than surface finishing. Read up on it. It's kind of amazing actually. Craig--the guy that owns the company--is a great guy that knows his stuff. you should see what he has done for nascar engines, tractor pull engine turbo's. diesal engines and drivetrains, motorcross bikes, road racing bikes, etc etc. Rotor heads have not discovered him yet as we dont have many moving parts I guess? But he has been around for years. We have talked and he knows the rotary engine pretty good and has just been waiting. look at some you tubes vids on it too. I turned BNC on to them too--he said he was going to call.
Mine will get er done sometime this year ( spare engine), plus hopefully the diff and the u joints ( what-- u joints---what---gasp!!! hes crazy.....)
On the housings--what goopy does is make them flat again. So the new seals will have a flat surface to mate too. It seems to work really well.
04-05-2012, 11:58 AM
#74
yea youre right --if you do use the taller seals then you have to use the correct corner seals for them though.
Hard to beat the oem apex seals if you are staying na--but if you ever want to FI.......hehehe.
Microblue is much more than surface finishing. Read up on it. It's kind of amazing actually. Craig--the guy that owns the company--is a great guy that knows his stuff. you should see what he has done for nascar engines, tractor pull engine turbo's. diesal engines and drivetrains, motorcross bikes, road racing bikes, etc etc. Rotor heads have not discovered him yet as we dont have many moving parts I guess? But he has been around for years. We have talked and he knows the rotary engine pretty good and has just been waiting. look at some you tubes vids on it too. I turned BNC on to them too--he said he was going to call.
Mine will get er done sometime this year ( spare engine), plus hopefully the diff and the u joints ( what-- u joints---what---gasp!!! hes crazy.....)
On the housings--what goopy does is make them flat again. So the new seals will have a flat surface to mate too. It seems to work really well.
Hard to beat the oem apex seals if you are staying na--but if you ever want to FI.......hehehe.
Microblue is much more than surface finishing. Read up on it. It's kind of amazing actually. Craig--the guy that owns the company--is a great guy that knows his stuff. you should see what he has done for nascar engines, tractor pull engine turbo's. diesal engines and drivetrains, motorcross bikes, road racing bikes, etc etc. Rotor heads have not discovered him yet as we dont have many moving parts I guess? But he has been around for years. We have talked and he knows the rotary engine pretty good and has just been waiting. look at some you tubes vids on it too. I turned BNC on to them too--he said he was going to call.
Mine will get er done sometime this year ( spare engine), plus hopefully the diff and the u joints ( what-- u joints---what---gasp!!! hes crazy.....)
On the housings--what goopy does is make them flat again. So the new seals will have a flat surface to mate too. It seems to work really well.
in any event, yea Craig at micro blue has lots of good info. I am most likely going to send him my whole engine to do with as he pleases. It will be super expensive but I'm curious as to how it will work out.
04-05-2012, 05:10 PM
#75
Great info guys thanks....definitely look into recoating and micro-blue.....one thing I would like to "try" and avoid is getting wrapped up in what could be.....I love my car and it is a daily driver. Right now I am carpooling with wife and 2 kids that goto 2 seperate schools so there is a little "pressure" on timing but I most certainly don't want to take any crazy shortcuts or half *** anything