an RX8er's rebuild thread
05-15-2012, 10:33 AM
#452
and the engine oil wont be cleaner....it will be cleaner sooner but initially it will be more contaminated. we are all talking about the same material to wear off and contaminate the system so the faster you introduce the more likely unwanted wear will happen.
What you say makes sense to some extent but I would really like to see some documentation before I commit to that.
05-15-2012, 10:34 AM
#453
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
I doubt Houston's engine will need any real tuning to run well. Mine ran fine on my NA tune as long as I stayed out of boost. He will need some tuning to get the most out of it however.
05-15-2012, 10:45 AM
#454
concerning the spitting an oil filter---yes i have done that. It was surprising at the amount os "paste" that is captured. And I am speaking of the results from a normal oil change---not just at break in.
Like folks have mentioned---different opinions for how to break in an engine.
I believe metals do wear. If they didnt then the engine should last forever. There are more than bearings inside this engine. There are the stationary gears, the e shaft etc. Metals will also be found in a uao--so metal is wearing somewhere and not just on the seals housings/plates. Also think why it is recommended that a street engine is not broken in with synthetic oil? Is it just for the seals?
I believe that RG is correct in that bearings are not supposed to touch. The oil film should be there. It is when it is not there that you see really bad results---like so many front bearing we see worn in this engine.
RG has a good point is getting the seals to take a set. Centrifugal force does provide the most force to the apex seals to help them seal--but CF actually works agaisn the corner and side seals.
The most important thing in getting a good seal is to have good parts to begin with--flat housings/plates and new seals. Regardless of the break in tech. I try to break my engines in driving like I would nornally do. For the few few minutes after the engine has gotten up to temps--i do use a fair amount of throttle to get the internal gas pressures up which helps the seals burnish the walls. i dont use that high of an rpm. Yes if you break it in driving like you stole it you will get a stronger contact between the seals and housings etc. But, it that small amount of break in wear going to last? No bad advice here.
Oh dude--if the car has been setting for awhile--get some fresh gas in it. Old gas can cause problems!
Main thing in flushing the oil coolers is getting all the old oil out. Home flushing really doesnt clean them much.
Like folks have mentioned---different opinions for how to break in an engine.
I believe metals do wear. If they didnt then the engine should last forever. There are more than bearings inside this engine. There are the stationary gears, the e shaft etc. Metals will also be found in a uao--so metal is wearing somewhere and not just on the seals housings/plates. Also think why it is recommended that a street engine is not broken in with synthetic oil? Is it just for the seals?
I believe that RG is correct in that bearings are not supposed to touch. The oil film should be there. It is when it is not there that you see really bad results---like so many front bearing we see worn in this engine.
RG has a good point is getting the seals to take a set. Centrifugal force does provide the most force to the apex seals to help them seal--but CF actually works agaisn the corner and side seals.
The most important thing in getting a good seal is to have good parts to begin with--flat housings/plates and new seals. Regardless of the break in tech. I try to break my engines in driving like I would nornally do. For the few few minutes after the engine has gotten up to temps--i do use a fair amount of throttle to get the internal gas pressures up which helps the seals burnish the walls. i dont use that high of an rpm. Yes if you break it in driving like you stole it you will get a stronger contact between the seals and housings etc. But, it that small amount of break in wear going to last? No bad advice here.
Oh dude--if the car has been setting for awhile--get some fresh gas in it. Old gas can cause problems!
Main thing in flushing the oil coolers is getting all the old oil out. Home flushing really doesnt clean them much.
Last edited by olddragger; 05-15-2012 at 10:55 AM.
05-15-2012, 11:21 AM
#455
Registered
the volume of contaminates prior to the first oil change "could" create uneven wear. once an uneven situation is created it would get exaggerated as time went on.
and the engine oil wont be cleaner....it will be cleaner sooner but initially it will be more contaminated. we are all talking about the same material to wear off and contaminate the system so the faster you introduce the more likely unwanted wear will happen.
What you say makes sense to some extent but I would really like to see some documentation before I commit to that.
and the engine oil wont be cleaner....it will be cleaner sooner but initially it will be more contaminated. we are all talking about the same material to wear off and contaminate the system so the faster you introduce the more likely unwanted wear will happen.
What you say makes sense to some extent but I would really like to see some documentation before I commit to that.
I am still waiting for any good piece of information as to why to break in an engine slowly. Everyone always says the same thing. It has always been done that way. No one knows why and I've got a problem with that. The reality is that not everyone does do it that way.
05-15-2012, 11:31 AM
#457
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Interesting tid bit: I was watching a show on factories and on that show they had episodes on the Z06 and the Porsche 911 and in both factories they rolled the cars on a dyno at the end of the assembly line and took them to redline. But I am too chicken to do that, forcing something into place always seems to end badly versus taking it slow and easy.
05-15-2012, 11:54 AM
#458
Registered
I am going to say this with 100% certainty. If you break in your engine the conventional easy way, you are not going to get all the power the engine can get and you never will. A timid break in results in a timid engine.
05-15-2012, 11:57 AM
#459
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
Interesting tid bit: I was watching a show on factories and on that show they had episodes on the Z06 and the Porsche 911 and in both factories they rolled the cars on a dyno at the end of the assembly line and took them to redline. But I am too chicken to do that, forcing something into place always seems to end badly versus taking it slow and easy.
05-15-2012, 12:04 PM
#460
it "used to be" a slow break in because the oil and clearances where not as good then as they are now.
Define break it in hard? Are you speaking of repeativly going to 9K rpms--or or you talking about using a lot of throttle?
I dont like high rpms ( Cf or not) due to the heat it generates. But using a lot of throttle allows the gas pressure to get under the seals and push outward and to help burnish in the apex/corner and side seals. I dont lug it--but i dont go over 7.5K either.
I would change that first oil before I would drive it hard. I change my first oil after the first warm up. I didnt so a full change--just the normal one--but I can get about 5 quarts out.
Define break it in hard? Are you speaking of repeativly going to 9K rpms--or or you talking about using a lot of throttle?
I dont like high rpms ( Cf or not) due to the heat it generates. But using a lot of throttle allows the gas pressure to get under the seals and push outward and to help burnish in the apex/corner and side seals. I dont lug it--but i dont go over 7.5K either.
I would change that first oil before I would drive it hard. I change my first oil after the first warm up. I didnt so a full change--just the normal one--but I can get about 5 quarts out.
05-15-2012, 12:21 PM
#461
Registered
Perhaps adding an oil change after the initial 20 minute warm up after starting would be a good idea too. You never know what kind of stuff is hiding inside the engine.
The slow traditional break in method states to avoid full throttle and stay below 4K rpm. I see no reason at all to do this and actually find every reason not to do this.
The slow traditional break in method states to avoid full throttle and stay below 4K rpm. I see no reason at all to do this and actually find every reason not to do this.
05-15-2012, 12:26 PM
#462
and the engine oil wont be cleaner....it will be cleaner sooner but initially it will be more contaminated. we are all talking about the same material to wear off and contaminate the system so the faster you introduce the more likely unwanted wear will happen.
What you say makes sense to some extent but I would really like to see some documentation before I commit to that.
What you say makes sense to some extent but I would really like to see some documentation before I commit to that.
You are talking about wear, but this wear must happen, otherwise components wont seal anything.
Light break-in approach with first oil change after "relatively" long time is worst possible scenario - seals will just polish all surfaces without realizing perfect sealing and this will cause several things, no matter how long it will be run. Such engine will be down on power, it will have higher fuel and oil consumption and it will always contaminate oil faster with combustion byproducts.
I have direct experience with this on two stroke bikes, unfortunately, I was light break-in guy and all the trying to do it "right" resulted in very poor power and torque. My brother was pretty reckless in this regard and his bike was accelerating harder in 3rd gear than mine in 2nd. After disasembly, he didnt have any major blow-by indication on piston skirt whereas I did and very much of it
Another example would be NSU endurance test runs. Engine was being break-in during first 10 hours on engine dyno at full load at 5000 rpms. During this duration, BMEP raised by about 8%, specific fuel consumption decreased by 14% and oil consumption went to half. This wouldnt happen with 10 hours of light throttle operation. Note: run was at constant speed as they were examining tendency to apex seal chatter.
What RG says is correct, hydrodynamic bearings doesn´t have metal to metal contact and only way to properly seat the seals, is to put combustion pressure on them before its too late...
Ultimately, if the engine has some major flaw, it will lead to damage, no matter type of break-in procedure. Only difference is amount of money that goes to the gas before someone applies serious load - heat and something will grow/fail.
05-15-2012, 10:00 PM
#465
well with several accounts of opperator error hoss -05 and I knocked out most of the short block
tomorrow I finish up the pressure plate and front cover.
by the way with all the break in talk I have decided to do this assembly dry...thats right folks absolutely no oil with this assembly....my theroy is why not break it in right and get it out of the way right at start up!!!!
....hope I did the right thing
tomorrow I finish up the pressure plate and front cover.
by the way with all the break in talk I have decided to do this assembly dry...thats right folks absolutely no oil with this assembly....my theroy is why not break it in right and get it out of the way right at start up!!!!
....hope I did the right thing
05-16-2012, 08:00 AM
#471
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05-16-2012, 08:27 AM
#473
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
iTrader: (9)
05-16-2012, 08:45 AM
#475
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