nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Im switching to 5w40 soon.

Another 1.5K miles zoom zoom to go !

rotarygod

I think it's funny how Mazda was dealing with engine failures by reflashing with a program that added omp volume. This was when we thought the failures were caused by oil that was too hot causing too much carbon buildup inside the engine. It apparently turns out that the issue was that the apex seals weren't getting enough lubrication so the solution was to add oil. It makes sense now.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

There are many people out there believes that Mazda knows best about their engine. and actually listens to what Mazda said. That might be true at some point, but not entirely

For example : 5w20 is ok ! Cuz Mazda knows best about their engines! Do you think Mazda will let us use 5w20 if it will damage it !
Answer : Have they seen the wear in the pictures ? talking about the bearings here. if Expo kept using 5w20, I kinda doubt his engine will be able to last to 110K miles. (he did the switch to Synthetic + heavier weight in the middle of the road). Another answer is C.A.F.E.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Im just wondering, do you guys think Mazda is reading our forums or any other forums for possible solutions ?

I mean, its always better to have couple thousand brains to think of something than couple hundred working @ Mazda.

whitebeau

+1 to RG. This is my theory also, and the B.F. complaining i promosied to stop doing on the other threads

It's another reason i'm excited of the PCM Flash option. Once somebody finds an equivalent setting for the OMP to manage flow where heat tolerences are maintained, and having any additional oil increased won't benefit.... Then during emissions testing, swap the settings back.

rotarygod

The problem really isn't with the amount of flow through the omp so much as where it is directed. The oil injectors are not sending it where it's needed the most. No amount of oil injection through them is going to fix that. This is why I say to premix with a small amount (3-4 oz per full tank) of stroke. It will get where it needs to.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

this thread so just made me buy some lube control LC20 and FPplus... we'll see how it goes

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

I feel that Mazda is reading these threads and this forum daily. THEY new hours after I posted the 2009 AT pics. They know what we're talking about and what we're doing to our cars.
I also believe Mazda is not perfect in the engineering dept. And neither are we. But between what they are doing and what the people on here are doing, the Renesis is improving. Look what has come out of this forum in the past 4 years. Brilliant stuff. Vast improvements and insightful technology.
I think Mazda enjoys our input into the Renesis and welcomes it.

New Yorker

I couldn't agree more. "Design flaw" my ***. I've been patiently watching this thread, hoping reason would win out, but I'm sorry, I just can't take it any more. News flash: the Renesis is unreliable and suffers from a "design flaw" in one place and one place only: the internet—the same place where global warming has "finally been put to rest" and where the World Trade Center was brought down by Americans. In the real world (not that anyone here is interested), the RX-8 and the Renesis are more or less "average" in reliability compared to other cars and other engines. A small percentage of early, first-year-of-production 8s experienced engine problems. And frankly I've got to wonder what percentage of those engines were either modded, not driven with the oil Mazda recommends for the engine that, oh yeah, they happened to design, or suffered from owner neglect (not checking oil level, not keeping oil level up, etc.)

And by the way… anyone who thinks Mazda engineers haven't torn down this engine every which way possible, think again. Is there anyone out there who honestly believes that Mazda engineers need your help in making the Renesis better?? These are all guys with advanced degrees in engine design, automotive engineering, etc. They were good enough to get highly desireable jobs designing engines for Mazda, one of the most innovative automobile companies in the world. Do you have advanced degrees in engine design? Hey, do you think Mazda would offer you a job designing rotary engines???

Gimme a break.

heyarnold69

iTrader: (1)

I disagree. I believe they forgot a crutial ingredient.

they should have given us a prettier gas cap!

morkusyambo

Feel better now??

BTW, Mazda should care what we think. One of the reasons foreign car-manufacturers have exploded here in the last two decades is for that very reason. They listened to what Americans wanted while the US maufacturers kept putting out garbage. If Mazda stops listening to consumers they will suffer the same fate.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Why not ?

There are tons of companies out there cant fix something, it is the end users, which is us, to tell them where to look and how to fix.

Take software as an example, Microsoft has been ,not once, but TONS of times that it actually have to reach out for help, ask people who had experienced certain problems to come to their center, and tell them exactly what it is. The Newest one would be the WHS corrupting Data problem, Microsoft promised to have a fix by Xmas, we're at the end of Feb already, now they're still not *sure* if thats the cause, and now they're *thinking* that it might have something to do with the drive extender. How did Microsoft know ? Cuz end users, us, told them that is the problem, and the fix so far is to use only 1 drive in the WHS, they have to recode the Drive Extender to accept programs that use Alternate data stream. Who told Microsoft about that? Us. the end user.

Another famous one was Nvidia, they had a big problem a year ago with their drivers that TONS of people having problems, but sadly no one @ Nvidia knows how to fix it. in the end again, they reach out and asked 100 people who have this problem to go into their center, and tell them what exactly is going on.

and Im pretty sure Microsoft, Nvidia, AMD, etc has way more people with Phd and Masters in their engineering department than Mazda ever will.

So why is this happening ?

Having certain degree sure can make wonderful things, but dont forget, The dude who created E=MC2 acutally failed math when he was young. and most of the wonderful things on earth are created by regular people like you and me.

So why is it so shock to see that Mazda actually thought something might work but actually failed in the long run ?

Ask Ford about Recalls, they're very familar with the process, and Im sure they have way more engineers with PHD in their R&D department than Mazda. So why is this happening again and again, cuz everybody makes mistakes.

The wear in the middle of the Apex seal is something thats totally new, never seen b4 problem. So what does that mean ? Compare the Pre-13B-MSP and the now 16X engine. You will know that Mazda screwed up, big time.

Can it make it to 100K w/o problem? Maybe, At least Expo's motor did, but is the wear on the motor the way its suppose to be ? I dont think so.

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

you know what would be a great comparison? Have someone send in their non-premixed, non-synthetic oil (in 5w20 weight!) using, lightly tracked, but 'enthusiastically driven' on the street Renesis (basically my motor lol) that's still in good running shape, and have a little comparison

expo's motor is only one data point, need further data inputs/motor disassemblies to solidify/counter the findings here.

just me thinking like a scientist here

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

and i'm about 90% certain Mazda DOES read this forum, frequently I might add

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Too bad my motor has only 38.7K miles

Im planning to swap it out around 60K for .... hehehehehehehe, Paul knows what Im talking about

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

We should have Abbid to come up here and tell us about his(I think) his first experience.

Easy_E1

iTrader: (2)

They do read the forum I posted pics of the 2009 AT that was in town on here. And in about 8 hours. I was gettting a phone call from the people that had it. They said Mazda called them and told them to tell me to please remove them.
Oh yes they read the forum. And Abbid will testify to that too.

rotarygod

Henry Ford said it best when he said "Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly". What he meant by that was don't be afraid to sell or push something just because it isn't perfect. Release it and then update and improve it as you go. We see this philosophy in so many different products and industries now that it's pretty much the standard way of doing things. You need to also remember that in large companies the finance department has just as much to do with the final design as the engineers do. I am an engineer. I get people trying to override and change my stuff all the time.

When Mazda developed the Renesis and the new oil injector locations, I have no doubt they performed lots of tests and obviously their conclusion at the time was that the design was adequate and that it would be fine to release this way. They also probably came to the same conclusion with the terribly unreliable twin turbo and engine of the 3rd gen RX-7. Those blew up when treated good just by sitting in traffic in the summer! The one thing that is hard to tell during development is long term use and wear. I can tell you from the mudpumps that we design and build, we try to build in a large margin of safety and longevity. The goal is 20+ years of continuous use under extreme condition. It's not saying they'll all last that long. Every once in a while you find an issue that you didn't see earlier. That's the nature of the beast. Humans aren't perfect and therefore don't always catch everything. Not even during testing. You just never know.

I have no doubt that the Mazda engineers are smart. Several of us have met the top rotary engine guy personally. He's definitely a smart man. I think it's pretty safe to say that while the oil injectors may or may not be perceived by some as a "design flaw", there is zero doubt that there is in fact a better, more effective way to do it. To state something has a design flaw, one must first set a standard by which to judge it by. If you lower your standards far enough, nothing is flawed! I'm not saying Mazda did this with the Renesis. They spent lots of time on it. They just missed something that came back to bite them years down the road. It happens. Even smart people make mistakes.

It's also very safe to say that they in fact know they messed up as they have addressed the issue. They haven't addressed it because of this forum or thread. Quite the opposite actually. We figured out what happened based on what has happened in the past and how they have now dealt with it. They were sufficiently smart to catch their own error. If it's not flawed, it doesn't need to be fixed. They fixed this problem. The other way to look at this is to say that it wasn't flawed at all. It was just improved upon and reliability hopefully was increased. It really depends what your point of view is. I personally look at it as a flaw. Fortunately they have dealt with it.

I think based on this, reason has in fact won out. If it hadn't, they'd have let the lack of design flaw continue to cause problems and they wouldn't have changed anything. Everyone makes a bad judgement call or potentially serious mistake at some point in time and it probably didn't appear to be this way at first.

Calm down a bit. I've stated that this is all my own personal hypothesis and in no way absolute proof that this is in fact what is happening. It is my personal attempt to put together all of the puzzle pieces of that has been going on for 5 years now and correlate them with the new changes Mazda has made. In my opinion there is just way too much stuff that fits together perfectly (namely all of it) for it to be nothing more than a coincedence. If you don't believe it, good for you. I'm not forcing my will upon you. I am merely trying to get people to think and draw their own conclusions. I am making my own recommendations but again you don't have to do it. I really don't care. I don't point things out to get rich or make money. It's to make people aware of potential issues, to get them thinking, and hopefully to educate them. You should read more! It's not written in stone law. I also assume no responsibility for anything that may happen to your vehicle should you happen to take my advice. Use at your own risk. I trust you can make your own decisions after being presented evidence.

It's very easy to say that most engine problems must have been due to poor treatment, poor maintenance, overly hard driving, etc but that's the easy way out. Anyone who is an active part of a performance car forum or group probably has enough interest in their vehicle to take care of it. You also assume that some of us don't actually know any people directly at Mazda, at service centers, the design studio, etc. I assure you, some people here are very highly connected! We aren't just a bunch of 16 year old kids in a pissing contest online in between World of Warcraft game addiction and masturbation sessions to free internet ****. We've got enthusiasts here. We've got hobbiest here. We;ve got engine builders here. We've got people who just experiment. We've got people who beat up their engiens just to see what the limit it. We've got poor people. We've got rich people. Most importantly we've got the best resource of rotary people on the planet and there is very little that hasn't been imagined, talked about, discussed, or improved here. Changes have also been made as a result of our discussions. Give us a bit more credit. We aren't the Civic forum. Some of us actually do know what we are talking about!

rotaryPilot

Ι think that rotaryGod does not want to prove anything. I think that all this information that shares with us have one and only purpose. This is to inform us and not to persuade us. I personally feel very honored that I have the chance to read the thoughts of people like rotaryGod people that have spend a lot of time in the rotary technology and specifically in one vehicle that join us all.

I personally encourage such a persons to continue inform us around this legend which is called wankel !

rotarygod

^ That's basically it. I don't want to force anyone to believe anything they don't want to. I like to spread info that I learn so that others may either learn from it, find a way to use the information to improve upon it, or even try to disprove it. I spead information that I believe to be true. I don't give any advice that I don't personally follow myself. If it's wrong, it's messing my motor up too! I have always felt that the rotary community was too closed off. Too many people dont' share their knowledge or information. In no way have I thought everything up on my own. I learned from others too. Many of them far smarter than I am. I just try to pass it on. I think the more info that gets shared, debated, and expanded upon, the smarter the community will be in the end.

morkusyambo

Thanks for your contributions RG. Even though I've seen certain things differently than you in the past, people like you are the reason I am a member of this forum. You have contributed greatly to my understanding of the rotary.

rotarygod

There are several people here that I disagree with. That's OK. If we all agreed, we'd probably miss something! I have lots of friends here and I don't agree with them all and they don't all agree with me. To have differing opinions is a good thing so long as everyone shares their opinions, discoveries, knowledge, etc...

This forum is full of many very smart people and in many different aspects of the vehicle. Paul (Mazmart) is a very smart guy who is directly tied with the smartest most experienced rotary engine builder in the US. When Paul recommends something, people should listen. Jeff (Mazdamaniac) has done tons of work with ecu tuning (various ecu's) as well as forced induction. He has shared what he has learned and gives great advice. There are admittedly a few things I have disagreed with him about but I've ridden in his car. It's fast and he obviously knows what he's doing. His avatars alone make it worth keeping him around! We've got many others. Many just tinkerers who contribute. Vlad (rotorrocks) with his turbo endeavours. You may not agree with his method but he's showing you exactly what he's doing and using which is cool. We've got TeamRX8 who has shown us what he's done. We've got great vendors such as Mazsport who listen to the requests of people here and give us what we want. Many vendors take an active part in the forum discussions. Sometimes they improve things based on what is discussed here. Look at Hymee and his supercharger and ecu project. Awesome piece. He even comes to the US to show it off! We've got a few people here who will remain anonymous that have inside ties to Mazda directly that share info with the rest of us. Charles Hill (Ray) listens to what people want and is basing his business on it! How cool is that! I'm not even sure he'd have a business had it not been for the people and collective knowledge of this forum.

I'm missing many important people. All of them share, contribute, and in general make this forum a very good online resource to those who want to learn, or just get educated. We are very fortunate to have a forum that is so open in this regards. I actually wonder how many fewer products would be available for the RX-8 is this forum didn't exist? Sharing knowledge and bouncing ideas off of each other, whether we agree with them or not, is always a win-win scenario!

morkusyambo

Well put.

rotarygod

I wasn't implying that at all!

jeffe19007

Having lived in the corporate world way too long, I would ascribe any shortcomings in engineering to financial restrictions or delivery dates.

It seems I only get funds when it is too late to get the job done.

Engineers never want to say 'Enough, it is done!'. I never do. One more run, is all I need. And zup! it is midnight.