Renesis engine issues finally identified?
02-15-2008, 08:06 PM
#1
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Renesis engine issues finally identified?
I originally posted most of this in a different thread in the disucssion section before I realized that this is probably something that everyone should study up on. In a moment of rotary clarity I think I figured out why the Renesis dynos inconsistently, has inconsistent mileage numbers reported, has people reporting random engine failures, has dealerships telling people they need new engines even though they seem to run, and why people that premix have seemed to report better mileage. It all has to do with one thing. The oil metering system. The new setup on the updated engine for 09 and the same system on the 16X led me to this conclusion. It's so simple. I've know all of this for years and yet I've never actually tried to tie it together. Until now. Keep in mind this is all a hypothesis on my part and nothing more. It is my personal interpretation of what is happening based on the facts that I see.
The updated Renesis for 09 had added 2 more oil injectors. Take a look at the 16x pictures and you'll see how they are now done. The 4 on the engine now are in the same place. There is now 1 in the middle of the housing but not directly between them. It's a little higher up on the housing. This way the middle of the apex seal gets lubricated. This is how it should have always been done as the middle is where the apex seal is hottest and needs the most lubrication. The 13B engines had their oil injectors centered on the housing but only 1 on each. On the 1st and 2nd gen RX-7's there was also an injector in each primary intake runner on the lower intake manifold. This way oil got mixed with the air well and directly lubricated the center of the apex seal.
The reason why the Renesis has both of it's oil injectors pointing diagonally towards the sides is actually to lubricate and cool the corner seals which now get exposed to hot exhaust gasses. They don't on a peripheral port engine. The downside to this was that some of this oil doesn't get burned nearly as well as it does getting injected directly into the center of the housing. This could lead to the side seals getting carbon locked. This led to the development of the wedge shaped side seal on the Renesis that helps force carbon out of the side seal grooves. The effects of this oil injection technique issue is still seen on the Renesis however in the form of carbon buildup in the intake and exhaust ports.
Since much of the oil metering goes towards the sides of the rotors and little actually lubricates the apex seals where they need it the most, they have a tendency to warp a little bit and wear faster. This can have multiple issues. An obvious one is potential engine longevity. Another issue is compression. As these seals get too hot and warp slightly, they don't seal as well and the engine doesn't build the dynamic compression ratio that it should have if the seals were lubricated properly. This is most certainly one reason why there are inconsistent power numbers from various cars. Along with this, mileage may also suffer to an extent. This hypothesis seems to be reinforced by the fact that many people that premix tend to get better gas mileage. Their apex seals are lubricated properly. These engines also show less wear upon teardown.
The oil metering pumps on the RX-8 also seem to be inconsistent. Some people report little to no oil consumption from the OMP. This is only making the apex seal issue worse. While the engine may run for a long time this way, fatigue is slowly setting in. Nothing may be noticable as power may only be down slightly. At some point this fatigue may rear it's ugly head all at once in the form of a broken apex seal. This too seems to be supported by the randomness in which engines have been reported to fail.
Also take oil temperatures into account. Too high oil temperatures aren't good. The oil in a rotary rejects about a third of the total engine heat. That's alot. If the apex seals are already too hot, and additional engine heat is going to be exagerrated even more. Not good news on the apex seals.
When you put all of this together you can really paint a good picture as to what has been going on with all of the power irregularities on the dyno, the mileage inconsistencies that are reported, the engine failures reported, and the engines that dealers have said need to be replaced even though the cars seemed to run fine to the owners. It all fits together and is tied to the location of the oil metering jets.
The solution seems obvious now. Lubricate the apex seals where it's needed most. The center. They are keeping the oil metering jets that are already saving the corner seals but now they are finally dealing with the apex seals. The rotary was always a very reliable engine. Why? The RX-7's lubricated the center of the apex seals. The race engines all use premix which also lubricates the center of the seals. Proper attention yields reliable results. We could even go so far as to tie in a correlelation with the people that report flooding issues more easily than others as that too is compression related.
The apex seals apparently just get enough oil to be fine. This assumes everything works properly though. Any little issues at all can change this in a hurry. A few degrees in engine temp from overly hot oil, an improperly working oil metering pump, etc can all lead to issues. Some issues may be minor and as such may lead to minor power or compression losses. Other more serious issues may kill the engine entirely.
I for one am very happy to see this new setup. It shows that they've analyzed the issue extensively and are taking care of it. What "should" we expect to see with these changes to the oil metering system? We should see more consistent gas mileage reported. We should see more consistent dyno results and the average will probably be higher than what it is now. Probably more on par with the few people that have gotten higher numbers than the rest. We should see fewer engine failures. Keep in mind I'm using the word "should" and not "will". Time will tell but I'm excited.
The one piece of advice that I'd give now that I know this is just to be on the safe side, premix!
Here is a temperature chart on apex seals. It shows the importance of oil metering in the proper location. I am also including a link to a Mazda test chart that shows the effect of oil metering on apex seal temperature as well as what the ideal ratios are for these tests.
http://rotaryeng.net/Sealtemp-verse-oil-vol.jpg
The updated Renesis for 09 had added 2 more oil injectors. Take a look at the 16x pictures and you'll see how they are now done. The 4 on the engine now are in the same place. There is now 1 in the middle of the housing but not directly between them. It's a little higher up on the housing. This way the middle of the apex seal gets lubricated. This is how it should have always been done as the middle is where the apex seal is hottest and needs the most lubrication. The 13B engines had their oil injectors centered on the housing but only 1 on each. On the 1st and 2nd gen RX-7's there was also an injector in each primary intake runner on the lower intake manifold. This way oil got mixed with the air well and directly lubricated the center of the apex seal.
The reason why the Renesis has both of it's oil injectors pointing diagonally towards the sides is actually to lubricate and cool the corner seals which now get exposed to hot exhaust gasses. They don't on a peripheral port engine. The downside to this was that some of this oil doesn't get burned nearly as well as it does getting injected directly into the center of the housing. This could lead to the side seals getting carbon locked. This led to the development of the wedge shaped side seal on the Renesis that helps force carbon out of the side seal grooves. The effects of this oil injection technique issue is still seen on the Renesis however in the form of carbon buildup in the intake and exhaust ports.
Since much of the oil metering goes towards the sides of the rotors and little actually lubricates the apex seals where they need it the most, they have a tendency to warp a little bit and wear faster. This can have multiple issues. An obvious one is potential engine longevity. Another issue is compression. As these seals get too hot and warp slightly, they don't seal as well and the engine doesn't build the dynamic compression ratio that it should have if the seals were lubricated properly. This is most certainly one reason why there are inconsistent power numbers from various cars. Along with this, mileage may also suffer to an extent. This hypothesis seems to be reinforced by the fact that many people that premix tend to get better gas mileage. Their apex seals are lubricated properly. These engines also show less wear upon teardown.
The oil metering pumps on the RX-8 also seem to be inconsistent. Some people report little to no oil consumption from the OMP. This is only making the apex seal issue worse. While the engine may run for a long time this way, fatigue is slowly setting in. Nothing may be noticable as power may only be down slightly. At some point this fatigue may rear it's ugly head all at once in the form of a broken apex seal. This too seems to be supported by the randomness in which engines have been reported to fail.
Also take oil temperatures into account. Too high oil temperatures aren't good. The oil in a rotary rejects about a third of the total engine heat. That's alot. If the apex seals are already too hot, and additional engine heat is going to be exagerrated even more. Not good news on the apex seals.
When you put all of this together you can really paint a good picture as to what has been going on with all of the power irregularities on the dyno, the mileage inconsistencies that are reported, the engine failures reported, and the engines that dealers have said need to be replaced even though the cars seemed to run fine to the owners. It all fits together and is tied to the location of the oil metering jets.
The solution seems obvious now. Lubricate the apex seals where it's needed most. The center. They are keeping the oil metering jets that are already saving the corner seals but now they are finally dealing with the apex seals. The rotary was always a very reliable engine. Why? The RX-7's lubricated the center of the apex seals. The race engines all use premix which also lubricates the center of the seals. Proper attention yields reliable results. We could even go so far as to tie in a correlelation with the people that report flooding issues more easily than others as that too is compression related.
The apex seals apparently just get enough oil to be fine. This assumes everything works properly though. Any little issues at all can change this in a hurry. A few degrees in engine temp from overly hot oil, an improperly working oil metering pump, etc can all lead to issues. Some issues may be minor and as such may lead to minor power or compression losses. Other more serious issues may kill the engine entirely.
I for one am very happy to see this new setup. It shows that they've analyzed the issue extensively and are taking care of it. What "should" we expect to see with these changes to the oil metering system? We should see more consistent gas mileage reported. We should see more consistent dyno results and the average will probably be higher than what it is now. Probably more on par with the few people that have gotten higher numbers than the rest. We should see fewer engine failures. Keep in mind I'm using the word "should" and not "will". Time will tell but I'm excited.
The one piece of advice that I'd give now that I know this is just to be on the safe side, premix!
Here is a temperature chart on apex seals. It shows the importance of oil metering in the proper location. I am also including a link to a Mazda test chart that shows the effect of oil metering on apex seal temperature as well as what the ideal ratios are for these tests.
http://rotaryeng.net/Sealtemp-verse-oil-vol.jpg
02-15-2008, 08:14 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
The fuel pump clogging issue is an interesting one as this was typically never an issue with fuel filters on pre-renesis vehicles. All I had ever heard was do not use marine 2 stroke oil for premix. That was always the general rule. I never really looked into why that was so though.
02-15-2008, 08:19 PM
#4
I don't want to get too far off topic, but with only a few months use on an upgraded fuel pump, my filter was filled with black goo. I was premixing with 2 stroke RP oil and some FP60 in the gas tank at the time.
I think it's also possible prior oils used in the past had residue that stayed in the gas tank and might also contribute.
At any rate, the filter clogging raised it's ugly head when I was on the dyno and was around 1/4th tank of gas left. Above 7k rpm the AFR's got lean as (I assume) less fuel was making it's way into the engine. Once the filter was replaced, the issue went away, so that's as conclusive as I can get with my issue.
I want to premix, but it's scary since going lean like that can kill my engine when in boost.
I think it's also possible prior oils used in the past had residue that stayed in the gas tank and might also contribute.
At any rate, the filter clogging raised it's ugly head when I was on the dyno and was around 1/4th tank of gas left. Above 7k rpm the AFR's got lean as (I assume) less fuel was making it's way into the engine. Once the filter was replaced, the issue went away, so that's as conclusive as I can get with my issue.
I want to premix, but it's scary since going lean like that can kill my engine when in boost.
02-15-2008, 08:27 PM
#6
Well, back on topic - do we yet know if it'll be easy to drop an upgraded renesis in the older rx-8's?
If my engine ever goes, I wouldn't want to go back to a ticking time bomb.
If my engine ever goes, I wouldn't want to go back to a ticking time bomb.
02-15-2008, 08:30 PM
#7
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Thread Starter
I have a Renesis intake manifold that I bought just to play with. I might look into seeing how difficult it would be to integrate 2 more oil injectors into them but this time on the lower manifold itself like the RX-7's did it. This part wouldn't be difficult. The thing that would need to be worked out is how to tap into the oil metering lines from the omp. The other issue is that you can't take the lower manifold off of the engine without first removing the engine from the car which sucks. Maybe this is something that I should look into for people who are going to have their engine out for whatever reason anyways. I need to think about this one for a while.
02-15-2008, 09:08 PM
#8
Go Texas Longhorns!
the updated engines won't swap. they have a different wiring harness and pcm among other things. I'm sure its technically possible, but not a direct block swap.
I think that light premixing ~2-3oz per tank is the best solution for current owners.
I think that light premixing ~2-3oz per tank is the best solution for current owners.
02-15-2008, 09:24 PM
#9
As Brillo said. "Engine managment is not the same". Kinda like putting a 13B in where the Renesis is, and hoping it will just plug and play.
So what are the down falls of dumping additional "engine oil" into the intake system?
Seeings how the current OMP uses it . Would an increase in "engine oil" (through the metering system) have a detrimental effect on the apex /side/corner seals. Is there a possibility of additional carbon build up?
Mazda must not think so if they've added two more OMP injectors.
I guess what I'm getting at is why not use 5W-20 as a premix oil. Instead of say, Idemitsu?
One must remember that this is what is actually happening with the OMP injection system currently and in the past.
So what are the down falls of dumping additional "engine oil" into the intake system?
Seeings how the current OMP uses it . Would an increase in "engine oil" (through the metering system) have a detrimental effect on the apex /side/corner seals. Is there a possibility of additional carbon build up?
Mazda must not think so if they've added two more OMP injectors.
I guess what I'm getting at is why not use 5W-20 as a premix oil. Instead of say, Idemitsu?
One must remember that this is what is actually happening with the OMP injection system currently and in the past.
02-15-2008, 09:40 PM
#10
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On my RX-7 I use a separate omp tank. I have used straight motor oil when I've run out of 2 stroke. Of course it was Royal Purple and I know it burns clean.
I think much of the current carbon issue in the intake and exhaust ports all has to do with the fact that the metered oil is being injected towards the sides of the rotors away from the combustion chamber where it can't burn off cleanly. Injecting a small amount where it will burn cleanly shouldn't prove to be an issue at all.
I think much of the current carbon issue in the intake and exhaust ports all has to do with the fact that the metered oil is being injected towards the sides of the rotors away from the combustion chamber where it can't burn off cleanly. Injecting a small amount where it will burn cleanly shouldn't prove to be an issue at all.
02-15-2008, 10:30 PM
#13
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I've been using marvel mystery oil for the last 30k miles, the last 8 of which have been w/FI. I have 80k total miles on the car. I put a quart of mystery oil into the motor every time I change the oil, and I add @4oz w/every tank of gas.
I'm not sure what test I could do to determine what the positive effect(if any) is on the motor, but there have not been any negative results so far. If my motor is still going strong @100k miles(@30 w/FI) I will certainly be impressed and continue to add the mystery oil.
I'd really love to drop a 16X into the 8. If this was a perfect world my Pettit kit would mate right up to it so I wouldn't have to pony up for another FI kit.
I'm not sure what test I could do to determine what the positive effect(if any) is on the motor, but there have not been any negative results so far. If my motor is still going strong @100k miles(@30 w/FI) I will certainly be impressed and continue to add the mystery oil.
I'd really love to drop a 16X into the 8. If this was a perfect world my Pettit kit would mate right up to it so I wouldn't have to pony up for another FI kit.
02-15-2008, 10:30 PM
#14
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
I was discussing this with a mazda representative today at the Chicago Auto Show. He said the reason the 09 wiring is different is because Mazda went to an electronic OMP in addition to the 3rd nozzle. Has anybody else heard this?
02-16-2008, 03:44 AM
#16
I don't buy Kool-Aid
RotaryGod,
I'm new to all this stuff so be gentle
What is two stroke oil? From what I just read on wikipedia,
I dont under stand how this works with our Car (RX-8)?
Also when the Apex Seals are no longer any good, Can you just have your Engine rebuilt? Is that what you mean by "Teardown"?
So is Castro GTX ok?
What where the Engines like that used normal Oil VS RP Syn Oil like?
Is this true?
In this thread https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ight=rb+premix
You say 600-1
Whats that mean? How much is that? I dont want to use too much.
If it is nolonger where it used to be and is now electronic, then this is good right? Can we add that extra thank and regulate the oil like you said in the pre mix thread? I dont know. I could be worng.
Thanks! and keep up the great work RG
-Gil
I'm new to all this stuff so be gentle
What is two stroke oil? From what I just read on wikipedia,
Its Since these lightweight engines do not feature oil sumps to collect and recycle oil like 4 cycle engines, oil must be mixed with the petrol fuel, for distribution throughout the engine for the purpose of lubrication. The two-stroke oil is ultimately burned along with the fuel resulting in exhaust emissions such as blue smoke and a distinctive odor.
Also when the Apex Seals are no longer any good, Can you just have your Engine rebuilt? Is that what you mean by "Teardown"?
The fuel pump clogging issue is an interesting one as this was typically never an issue with fuel filters on pre-renesis vehicles. All I had ever heard was do not use marine 2 stroke oil for premix. That was always the general rule. I never really looked into why that was so though.
What where the Engines like that used normal Oil VS RP Syn Oil like?
In this thread https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ight=rb+premix
You say 600-1
Whats that mean? How much is that? I dont want to use too much.
I am not against premixing in any way. Here are my thoughts on it though.
The engine already gets oil injected into the combustion chamber to lubricate it. While you don't want too little oil, you also don't want too much. I definitely agree that 2 cycle oil is the best way to go and that standard motor oils suck in the combustion chamber. However, I am not a fan of using oil injection AND premix. Use one or the other. Unfortunately if you disconnect the omp on the RX-8, the car will drive in limp mode. This isn't good.
The engine has different lubrication requirements based on rpm and load. The omp varies the oil into the engine based on this. Premixing leaves you with one set ratio. Typically it is the maximum amount based on max loads and rpm's. This leaves you with too much oil for 99.9% of your driving. Running a really small amount of 2 cycle oil shouldn't be a problem but it also isn't really necessary.
The best overall option is to install an adapter in between the engine and the omp that will let you pick up oil from an outside reservoir. This way you can run 2 cycle oil through the omp system and have it metered in the correct amounts. The engine oil also isn't circulated and now there is zero reason why you can't run synthetics. This is the best option.
Too much oil will hurt performance in the long run. If you still want to run premix with the factory system hooked up, use a higher ratio such as 600:1 or 800:1. Keep it low though.
The engine already gets oil injected into the combustion chamber to lubricate it. While you don't want too little oil, you also don't want too much. I definitely agree that 2 cycle oil is the best way to go and that standard motor oils suck in the combustion chamber. However, I am not a fan of using oil injection AND premix. Use one or the other. Unfortunately if you disconnect the omp on the RX-8, the car will drive in limp mode. This isn't good.
The engine has different lubrication requirements based on rpm and load. The omp varies the oil into the engine based on this. Premixing leaves you with one set ratio. Typically it is the maximum amount based on max loads and rpm's. This leaves you with too much oil for 99.9% of your driving. Running a really small amount of 2 cycle oil shouldn't be a problem but it also isn't really necessary.
The best overall option is to install an adapter in between the engine and the omp that will let you pick up oil from an outside reservoir. This way you can run 2 cycle oil through the omp system and have it metered in the correct amounts. The engine oil also isn't circulated and now there is zero reason why you can't run synthetics. This is the best option.
Too much oil will hurt performance in the long run. If you still want to run premix with the factory system hooked up, use a higher ratio such as 600:1 or 800:1. Keep it low though.
Thanks! and keep up the great work RG
-Gil
Last edited by DOMINION; 02-16-2008 at 03:49 AM.
02-16-2008, 04:42 AM
#17
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Personally I have been using pre-mix in both my 20B-REW + 13B-MSP engines. Having been using pre-mix in the Cosmo for 5+ years now I have not had an issue with a clogged fuel filter or a failing fuel pump.
How quickly does this "black goo" issue take to evolve.......??
Is it particular to the MSP engines only.........??
Am sure its a minor issue as pump or filter is much cheaper to replace than an entire engine.
REgards
How quickly does this "black goo" issue take to evolve.......??
Is it particular to the MSP engines only.........??
Am sure its a minor issue as pump or filter is much cheaper to replace than an entire engine.
REgards
02-16-2008, 04:51 AM
#18
I don't buy Kool-Aid
Might just be with MSP as you and RG just stated but I dont think its a minor issue as its not just in the fuel pump. Recall some Engiens had "this kind" of sticky stuff inside there Engines too?
We dont know where the start / stop point is. So where do we start looking? How do we know? ect.
We dont know where the start / stop point is. So where do we start looking? How do we know? ect.
02-16-2008, 07:00 AM
#19
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
/thread jack
02-16-2008, 07:19 AM
#20
I am almost certain it is all electric now. On a side note, I was pissed though because the one of the main reasons I went to the show was to check out the 09 and they didn't even have one. They gave me some excuse that they were all in testing but come on. Its the freaking Chicago auto show and it advertised the debut of the 09 RX8 but Mazda couldn't even get one to the show. The GTR and Challenger are awesome tho!
/thread jack
/thread jack
There is no excuse for Mazda not having a RX8 at the Chicago Auto Show. It's the largest in North America and it's only 2 weeks after the Detroit show. They had a RX8 there.
02-16-2008, 07:39 AM
#21
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Currently, I think its the stepper motor thats ECU controlled and he actual pump is driven by the motor. In the 09 I think they have changed the pump to be controlled by the ECU, also.
02-16-2008, 09:34 AM
#23
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I am still shaky on the idea of premix. However 2 oz. doesn't seem like alot and will get pretty diluted.
The idea of adding an aditional oil injector is a def. an interesting idea. a stand alone system utilizing an electric pump may be posible. basically take it away form the ecu all together... Im not a programmer so I do not know if that is possible.
I think I will get an upgraded rad. either way because cooling is a huge issue and it can only help...
2 oz. and the additional cooling capacity seems like a good idea to me .. any thaughts?
The idea of adding an aditional oil injector is a def. an interesting idea. a stand alone system utilizing an electric pump may be posible. basically take it away form the ecu all together... Im not a programmer so I do not know if that is possible.
I think I will get an upgraded rad. either way because cooling is a huge issue and it can only help...
2 oz. and the additional cooling capacity seems like a good idea to me .. any thaughts?
02-16-2008, 09:41 AM
#24
Also when the Apex Seals are no longer any good, Can you just have your Engine rebuilt? Is that what you mean by "Teardown"?
So is Castro GTX ok?
What where the Engines like that used normal Oil VS RP Syn Oil like?
What where the Engines like that used normal Oil VS RP Syn Oil like?
Hmm you ask if it withstand higher heat wont it burn not as clean ? Well, the temp inside a chamber can easily burn even the most 1337 Synthetic oil out there. Rotary is a hot hot hot engine so Oil cooling is very important in engine operation. Synthetic oil can resist heat better than Regular Stuff (harder thermal breakdown)
Is this true?
In this thread https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ight=rb+premix
You say 600-1
Whats that mean? How much is that? I dont want to use too much.
In this thread https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ight=rb+premix
You say 600-1
Whats that mean? How much is that? I dont want to use too much.
If it is nolonger where it used to be and is now electronic, then this is good right? Can we add that extra thank and regulate the oil like you said in the pre mix thread? I dont know. I could be worng.
Thanks! and keep up the great work RG
-Gil
-Gil
Oh, For some reason, my mpg stays about the same no matter if I premix or not, my 8 has been burning oil since day 1. I have a working OMP I guess. Cuz some people like MM, before he swap his OMP out, it hardly burn any oil.
My car burns about 1 quart every 1K-1.5K miles (or less, depends on my driving style) b4 the recall flash, now it burns at least 1-1.5 quart every 1K-1.5K miles for sure.
Last edited by nycgps; 02-16-2008 at 09:47 AM.
02-16-2008, 09:48 AM
#25
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Dear Rotarygod,
First of all, thank you very much for sharing with us your always wise knowlegde. In this particular case the lesson is about the "probably-no-so-good" lubrication system we have got for our beloved renesis engines.
As for premixing, we know that the fuel pump (and particularly the fuel filter) is the weak part as it tends to get clogged quite frequently. In this regard here in Spain, there are some members of the www.club-rx8.com (inlcuding myself) who are considering the fuel pump as a wear part that must be replaced at some point in time.
Fortunately the fuel pump "kit" is not a very expensive part, just about 150 USD + replacement cost so as soon as the first sympthons of fuel starvation happen, the fuel pump gets replaced.
By the way, where have you got the info about the new OMP and new oil injection system for 09 RX8 ? it has not been published oficially yet
Best regards
jird20
First of all, thank you very much for sharing with us your always wise knowlegde. In this particular case the lesson is about the "probably-no-so-good" lubrication system we have got for our beloved renesis engines.
As for premixing, we know that the fuel pump (and particularly the fuel filter) is the weak part as it tends to get clogged quite frequently. In this regard here in Spain, there are some members of the www.club-rx8.com (inlcuding myself) who are considering the fuel pump as a wear part that must be replaced at some point in time.
Fortunately the fuel pump "kit" is not a very expensive part, just about 150 USD + replacement cost so as soon as the first sympthons of fuel starvation happen, the fuel pump gets replaced.
By the way, where have you got the info about the new OMP and new oil injection system for 09 RX8 ?
it has not been published oficially yet Best regards
jird20