Vasichko

iTrader: (1)

So what your saying is that the factory OMP is a piece of ****, or mis-engineered by Mazda? From my time owning my car and reading up I kinda feel that the R&D time was kind of half assed.

Would it help anything to get a GReddy oil pan, allowing you to have a slightly larger capacity of oil, keeping it a bit cooler?

Razz1

Anything that will cool the engine is worth it.

I'm interested the the larger oil radiators they use in the 09 RX8

DOMINION

Its just that I had a AT and no one ever made any go fast parts for the AT


I dont know. If they dont talk like RG then they can hit the door. This guy knows his stuff hands down

morkusyambo

Cool. Didn't know that. I guess mineral spirits work just as well as pre-mixing for engine performance and longevity then

Jax_RX8

Partially correct on the first part, with a dose of Urban Legend added for good measure on the last part. MMO is nothing like Auto trans fluid to set the record straight.

In actuality, MMO is a very good lubricant and an average cleaner, even though it is very thin viscosity wise - do not confuse viscosity with lubrication as light oils can lubricate very well as well.

MMO will clean up varnish and sludge very well (in both fuel and oil), but is just OK on cleaning existing carbon (use normal fuel cleaner to get rid of that), but it is excellent on preventing the formation of new carbon.

You see, MMO won't let carbon solidify in the combustion chamber and that is why all engines that run it have very clean (and well lubed) combustion chambers, including spark plugs. The carbon is just blown out the exhaust - one of the reasons this is an interesting alternative for the rotary.

While it does not emulsify carbon like Lube Control's products, it is a great carbon preventer. You could use it alone in your fuel or mix with a 2-cycle to help prevent carbon buildup. You might also need to run some 44K, Techron, or Gumout Regane through to get the existing carbon out to start with though.

For those concerned with fuel pump clogging due too thick oil, but are looking for some extra lube and cleaning, this is the great alternative as it is very thin and will not have any fuel flow issues (or it can dilute down your 2-cycle as well), but will provide lube and cleaning on top of the natural OMP flow.

Here is the real composition of MMO (as best as has been discovered through analysis) and MSDS filings - not all the heresay we always get:

70% Light Aromatic Oil (Pale Oil) - good lubricant and decent cleaner (because it's aromatic)
29% Mineral Spirits - decent cleaning and the carbon formation preventer
38 parts per million (ppm) Boron - very effective barrier lubricant
900 ppm Phosporous - very effective barrier lubricant (and will not hurt cat at this level diluted in fuel)
1% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene - friction reducer/Anti-wear
Oil of wintergreen - for the scent
Red Dye - for the color

While the benzene is a little controversial, there has not been any reports that I have seen of any bad side effects because of their use here - Marvel seems to have figured out how to get the benefits without incurring any side effects.

Update for anyone considering use - standard dosage is 4 oz/10 gallons -- it is almost impossible to overdose, but benefits stop increasing at about 1 oz/1 gallon.

FWIW.

whitebeau

Eh, I don't see the larger oil pan assist in the event of cooling, just storage capacity. Add 2 more oil injectors that's managed by the OMP, then you have an increased rate of oil consumption. The oil coolers should be managing the oil temp before it cycles back through the system. The OMP from what i've read is 2 fold mechanical & Electrical, mechanical being the rate increases exponential to the RPM's, but is also managed by the PCM i'm guessing handles the baseline flow delivery. (Somebody correct me if i'm wrong) There's a big Thread on the OMP here with some people doing a teardown on it back in 05'. Quite a few people have made a seperate OMP Reservoir so it can be monitored and assured a clean lubrication delivery to.... and in turn using premix in it as an addition.

In short, the engine revision IMO is Engineers trying to end the double edge sword. Rev low, build up carbon don't risk heat hotspots on apex seals and side seal area's. Rev it hard daily, add normal driver poor oil change maintenance to the factor, the 2 injectors won't be able to manage the hotspot areas a 3rd injector lends to cover the surface area for heat dissipation during the higher rpm band...

So this allows heat stability in higher rpm bands, preventing possible apex warping, or side seal failure.

Hardest part is to convince a customer that it's safe to rev daily...

morkusyambo

Thanks for your last post Jax. I've known MMO was good sh** for a very long time, and have been using it for years.

diabolical1

Jax RX8 ~

rather than use space to quote your entire post (55), i'll simply say thank you for posting that. next to the original post by Rotarygod and a few other isolated posts here and there, yours was truly helpful and seemed objective.

diabolical1

seeing as though i've had my first brush with what i can only guess is a clogged fliter/pump this weekend on the road, i have one more issue to address on the 8 very soon.

this is just a question that came to me this weekend as one issue after another reared it's head ... how much input does/did Ford have in the development of the Rx-8 as it transferred from concept to the road car that we have (and will have in '09)?

Icemark

Okay, and here is your typical ATF:

Ingred Name:LUBRICATING OIL BASE STOCK HYDROTREATED LIGHT NAPHTHENIC PETROLEUM DISTILLATES (CAS NO. 64741-97-5 OR
64742-54-7 OR 64742-65-0) (AS OIL MIST)
CAS:64741-97-5
Fraction by Wt: 90.48%

Ingred Name:ZINC SALT OF DIALKYL DITHIOSPHORIC ACID (ZINC DIALKYL
DITHIOPHOSPHATE)
CAS:68457-79-4

Ingred Name:C.I. SOLVENT RED 164
Fraction by Wt: 0.02%

Ingred Name:XYLENES (O-,M-,P- ISOMERS) (SARA III)
CAS:1330-20-7
RTECS #:ZE2100000
Fraction by Wt: TRACE

Hmmm: 90% Naphthenic oil mist base stock instead of the 70% in MMO, and Xylene instead of Benzen... and zinc instead of the lameness of Phosphorous but interesting enough even the red die is the same.

(and lets face it Xylene is a better choice than Benzene just on an environmental standpoint).

But basically the same thing as MMO, just missing Mineral Spirits.

So, again A VERY POOR CHOICE for a Pre-mix replacement.

Well unless you are convinced that dumping solvents such as Benzene and Mineral Spirits into your gas tank is a good thing.

morkusyambo

Icemark, the difference between your post and Jaxs' is his are objective while you obviously feel that MMO is harmfull for a combustion engine.

I'm sure since you feel that way, you must have some sort of documentation(info) that can show all of us why you feel strongly about this???

rotaryPilot

Well interpreting the post of rotaryGod and assuming that his assumption is correct this implies that renesis engines till 09 are a failure. How is it possible that Mazda estimates 400.000Km for life span of renesis having such a serious flow?

Anyway if there were proofs about rotaryGod assumption Mazda should replace every single renesis engine that is sold !!!

Jax_RX8

The do have a similar base oil, but beyond that they have a totally different additive package formula for serving different purposes.

It is like saying that Royal Purple and Amsoil are the same oils because they both predominately use group IV oil (PAO) as their base oil - that does not make them the same thing as the additive package of an oil has much more to do with the performance than does the base oil. In this comparison RP loves Moly as a key part of the add pack and AMSOIL uses Boron and others in combinations - these oils both perform well but in very different ways.

I m not trying to sell MMO here - just trying to provide as much info as I have and let you make up your own mind.

Personally, I think it's pretty good stuff, not as good as Lube Control (surprise, surprise for those that have read my posts), but nonetheless, a good product with easy availability and great price.

Just so it doesn't get lost in the conversation, the reason I made the post above is because MMO is uniquely situated to serve a rotary in 2 ways:

(1) because of it's ability to prevent carbon formation - even if you want to use 2-cycle to premix, mixing with MMO (or FP Plus of course) could also go a long way towards preventing carbon buildup, and

(2) it would be a good premix for someone concerned with clogging their fuel pump as it is very thin and miscible (mixes well with fuel) and you do not have to worry with overdosing when using this exclusively like you might with FP Plus.

Anyways, hope this helps some.

rotarygod

I should point out that everyone with a gasoline powered vehicle puts a solvent in their tank every time they fill up. It's just a solvent with other crap that's mixed in. Diesel fueled cars however install lubricants in their tanks. Not as much so now with the lower sulfur content but still more than gasoline.

FWIW: MMO is a popular engine assembly lube. I'm not advocating it's use as a premix in anyway but the fact that it is used as a lubricant is significant.

rotarygod

I don't want to absolutely scare everyone as the car and engine have been out several years now and many people haven't had any issues at all. That in itself speaks voumes. It is still something that worries me though and something I feel to be a design flaw. That's just my personal opinion though.

rotaryPilot

^ I understand

Because of your experience with rotary engines your post seems logical and very but very true.

So reading a rotary knowledgeable person’s opinion about design flow of renesis is kind of scaring and disappointing together.

At least a premix is a solution in the event that your assumption about the design flow will be proved to be true

j9fd3s

yep, it would be nice to get some extra mileage out of the motor, plus it seems like "richening" up the premix helps compression which helps power.

actually to go the other way, except for the flooding, the rx8 is the most reliable mazda out right now. at least thats what it looks like at our dealership.

zoom44

yes i said that in the other thread

LionZoo

I have to further point out that while there are flaws with the Renesis; quite serious flaws in terms of how first batch cars were tuned, there are actually flaws with almost every engine out there. Toyota, a manufacturer much ballyhooed for their reliability (whether deserved or undeserved we'll leave for another thread), had issues with their 2ZZ-GE Celica GT-S engines failing and also oil sludge issues with their Camry motors. Just because an engine has a known weak point doesn't mean all of them are doomed to failure, especially if you pay attention and find ways to address the weak points, like what we can do here.

rotarygod

I believe I basically said that.

The 2JZ engine was a piece of crap. It's still the most overrated piece of crap out there yet everyone loves it. When Toyota wanted to turbocharge it, they couldn't make it a viable engine for the job on their own. They outsourced it's refinement to a German company of all things.

LionZoo

Yup I know, I just clarified it a bit more. The last thing we need is more chicken littles declaring the Renesis a failure and the rotary powerplant a dead end.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

The OMP itself is already a compromise. Cuz if Mazda ask people to *premix everytime @ fillups* no one will even buy this car.

and for some weird reason, some people never burn any oil then the next thing they know, is their engine is toasted.

My OMP works fine and Im burning oil.

Greddy oil pan is good for increasing cooling capacity

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

RG,
Damn fine post!

Might be time to cave in and start pre-mixing.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

would Lube control FP60 or FP Plus be considered a decent alternative for premixing?

mysql101

FP Plus is a UCL, but I don't know if that qualifies itself as a proper premix on a rotary engine.

I put 4oz into every tank of gas and my engine loves it.