Premix on new reman engine
05-02-2013, 04:08 AM
#26
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Ignorant ?? I was sharing my "personal" experience, if I wanted information on how to take 12 months to install a turbo system and still not have it running correctly, I'd ask you. I suggest you coat your neck with vaseline, grab your shoulders and pull hard, you may pull your head out of your ****, doubtful though.
05-02-2013, 04:11 AM
#27
Un-Registered User
Ignorant ?? I was sharing my "personal" experience, if I wanted information on how to take 12 months to install a turbo system and still not have it running correctly, I'd ask you. I suggest you coat your neck with vaseline, grab your shoulders and pull hard, you may pull your head out of your ****, doubtful though.
05-02-2013, 04:30 AM
#28
Well i don't have any proof that premix works, except some engine tear downs of premixed and non premixed units...
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
05-02-2013, 06:18 AM
#31
You gonna eat that?
iTrader: (1)
Interesting.
Adds to the debate for sure.
Now the question may be, does premix contribute to misfiring by fouling plugs, thereby causing possible
cat or engine damage?
Let the debate continue.
Like the Tootsie pop question,
The world may never know.
(Old fart reference)
05-02-2013, 07:57 AM
#32
DSC Off
I will add that when I got my car, the reman in it had 36k miles, and it already had compression numbers in the low 7s. I drove for about 7k miles several of my faces dropped into the high 6s at that point. After another 3k, it had dropped even lower, 2 faces were in the mid 6s. I started premixing and the numbers stopped dropping (at least as quickly anyway). Not saying it's the reason, but sure looks like it. I did do a few seafoam treatments, but I doubt that would really have made my numbers stop dropping
"Mr. Owl, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?"
"Let's find out. 1-2-3...CRUNCH" (and the renesis blows an apex seal)
That's very interesting indeed, but don't these engines misfire some when cold anyway, even without premix, because they run so rich?
Chill out man, no point on hating on people who are just trying to help. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are "ignorant" or "have zero wrench-time"
. Enough with the retarded generalizations
Thanks for replying.
Interesting.
Adds to the debate for sure.
Now the question may be, does premix contribute to misfiring by fouling plugs, thereby causing possible
cat or engine damage?
Let the debate continue.
Like the Tootsie pop question,
The world may never know.
(Old fart reference)
Interesting.
Adds to the debate for sure.
Now the question may be, does premix contribute to misfiring by fouling plugs, thereby causing possible
cat or engine damage?
Let the debate continue.
Like the Tootsie pop question,
The world may never know.
(Old fart reference)
"Mr. Owl, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?"
"Let's find out. 1-2-3...CRUNCH" (and the renesis blows an apex seal)
That's very interesting indeed, but don't these engines misfire some when cold anyway, even without premix, because they run so rich?
Yeah, don't listen to the *********, listen to all the uneducated opinions instead, that will get you far and really help you understand what you are trying to accomplish.
If you had taken the time to actually read (not just on this site either) about premix, then you would know that there is no proof premixing your gas does jack **** to extend the life of a Renesis. It has never been tested in a scientific manner. I have seen premixed engines fail early and I have seen poorly maintained engines that never saw premix last 100,000 miles.
But yeah read all the "oh yeah my car idles smoother and run better with premix" posts, and listen to people who have zero wrench time on an RX-8 and just parrot what they have read or heard someone else post or say, that will help you a bunch.
Wah.
If you had taken the time to actually read (not just on this site either) about premix, then you would know that there is no proof premixing your gas does jack **** to extend the life of a Renesis. It has never been tested in a scientific manner. I have seen premixed engines fail early and I have seen poorly maintained engines that never saw premix last 100,000 miles.
But yeah read all the "oh yeah my car idles smoother and run better with premix" posts, and listen to people who have zero wrench time on an RX-8 and just parrot what they have read or heard someone else post or say, that will help you a bunch.
Wah.
. Enough with the retarded generalizations
Last edited by Cliffjumper126; 05-02-2013 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Needed to add something
05-02-2013, 07:59 AM
#33
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
btw 9k, mazda did test premix and it did proof that premix is the best for rotary engine. so its not a he said she said bs.
**** does happen, ppl never smoke nor drink can get lung/liver cancer as well, know what i mean?
putting premix with sohn adapter does not solve the fundamental problem of early 13b-msp dude. you can increase omp and max it out at 60 at all blocks, but still not going to help.
**** does happen, ppl never smoke nor drink can get lung/liver cancer as well, know what i mean?
putting premix with sohn adapter does not solve the fundamental problem of early 13b-msp dude. you can increase omp and max it out at 60 at all blocks, but still not going to help.
Ignorant ?? I was sharing my "personal" experience, if I wanted information on how to take 12 months to install a turbo system and still not have it running correctly, I'd ask you. I suggest you coat your neck with vaseline, grab your shoulders and pull hard, you may pull your head out of your ****, doubtful though.
, That's all you got fruity? You still didn't explain what you think the rattle was and how premix eliminated it. Oh and you mean 12 months to install a custom turbo, new engine, custom oil cooler setup, secondary radiator setup, etc., etc. etc., etc.Well i don't have any proof that premix works, except some engine tear downs of premixed and non premixed units...
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
No one will ever know my friend.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 05-02-2013 at 08:03 AM.
05-02-2013, 01:11 PM
#34
Registered
I agree with you 100% on your earlier argument. There's no verifiable data - at least not in a scientific fashion - that can show the correlation between pre-mixing and extended engine life in normal, street-driven vehicles.
On race engines? Well...that's a different argument all together based on the type of engine I suppose, and how they are built. My neighbor has a non-street legal 1st Gen RX7 that only uses premix for racing. Totally different animal than a renesis for sure.
Having said that...I happen to premix rather consistently... even with the lack of scientific evidence to support the use of it. But I don't make the case for it one way or the other as some people here do.
05-02-2013, 01:25 PM
#35
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Good thing you don't do custom installs for a living
I agree with you 100% on your earlier argument. There's no verifiable data - at least not in a scientific fashion - that can show the correlation between pre-mixing and extended engine life in normal, street-driven vehicles.
On race engines? Well...that's a different argument all together based on the type of engine I suppose, and how they are built. My neighbor has a non-street legal 1st Gen RX7 that only uses premix for racing. Totally different animal than a renesis for sure.
Having said that...I happen to premix rather consistently... even with the lack of scientific evidence to support the use of it. But I don't make the case for it one way or the other as some people here do.
I agree with you 100% on your earlier argument. There's no verifiable data - at least not in a scientific fashion - that can show the correlation between pre-mixing and extended engine life in normal, street-driven vehicles.
On race engines? Well...that's a different argument all together based on the type of engine I suppose, and how they are built. My neighbor has a non-street legal 1st Gen RX7 that only uses premix for racing. Totally different animal than a renesis for sure.
Having said that...I happen to premix rather consistently... even with the lack of scientific evidence to support the use of it. But I don't make the case for it one way or the other as some people here do.
For race engines is a completely different scenario all together. I do know the heavy premix idea was applied in addition to relocating the OMP and blocking it off and that did not work out well on the Renesis. I am not against premix, I just think people should be realistic about it and others should not state certain things as fact if they really have no clue what they are talking about. At the end of the day, for every well maintained engine that lasted to 100k there is an engine that was treated like **** that lasted to 100k.
There are countless variables as to why engines fail and I am sure Mazda knows for the most part, what the main failure mode for the S1 engines is but they sure are not talking about it. So all you have to go on IMO, is to look at the changes made to the S2. Some of those changes can be applied to an S1 but like NYCGPS stated, there is nothing you can do about the physical differences between the engines.
05-02-2013, 01:40 PM
#36
fwiw, the third oil injector in the S2 does nothing more than help equalize temperatures across the apex seal since the S1 had a higher delta temp between the outside and the inside of the apex seal. This helped to even out the wear, but its purpose is to allow for even expansion of the apex seal under heat.
Still doesn't address the two common causes of rotary engine failures: bearing failure and side seal failure
Still doesn't address the two common causes of rotary engine failures: bearing failure and side seal failure
05-02-2013, 01:47 PM
#37
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
fwiw, the third oil injector in the S2 does nothing more than help equalize temperatures across the apex seal since the S1 had a higher delta temp between the outside and the inside of the apex seal. This helped to even out the wear, but its purpose is to allow for even expansion of the apex seal under heat.
Still doesn't address the two common causes of rotary engine failures: bearing failure and side seal failure
Still doesn't address the two common causes of rotary engine failures: bearing failure and side seal failure
05-02-2013, 01:51 PM
#38
Registered
Yeah I am never in a hurry and my RX-8 is never finished and is in a constant state of build most of the time. And by the time I get close to finishing I will just blow it up again so..........
For race engines is a completely different scenario all together. I do know the heavy premix idea was applied in addition to relocating the OMP and blocking it off and that did not work out well on the Renesis. I am not against premix, I just think people should be realistic about it and others should not state certain things as fact if they really have no clue what they are talking about. At the end of the day, for every well maintained engine that lasted to 100k there is an engine that was treated like **** that lasted to 100k.
There are countless variables as to why engines fail and I am sure Mazda knows for the most part, what the main failure mode for the S1 engines is but they sure are not talking about it. So all you have to go on IMO, is to look at the changes made to the S2. Some of those changes can be applied to an S1 but like NYCGPS stated, there is nothing you can do about the physical differences between the engines.
For race engines is a completely different scenario all together. I do know the heavy premix idea was applied in addition to relocating the OMP and blocking it off and that did not work out well on the Renesis. I am not against premix, I just think people should be realistic about it and others should not state certain things as fact if they really have no clue what they are talking about. At the end of the day, for every well maintained engine that lasted to 100k there is an engine that was treated like **** that lasted to 100k.
There are countless variables as to why engines fail and I am sure Mazda knows for the most part, what the main failure mode for the S1 engines is but they sure are not talking about it. So all you have to go on IMO, is to look at the changes made to the S2. Some of those changes can be applied to an S1 but like NYCGPS stated, there is nothing you can do about the physical differences between the engines.
It is interesting than when the literature came out promoting the 2009-2011 RX-8s, pretty much nothing was mentioned about the changes in the engine. The focus was all on cosmetic and suspension upgrades. Clearly, Mazda did not want to talk openly about the changes they made to the engine, perhaps avoiding recognizing openly what the physical issues with the S1 engines were.
I had question for you. On your most recent engine - the one that Rob from Pineapple racing built for you -, what made you decide to go for another S1 project to begin with? You had already gone through two prior engines. Did you explore the possibility of getting a Series2 and boost it instead?
I do know there's more aftermarket support to boost the S1s, plus reliability and boosting often don't go together regardless anyway. But provided that the S2s seem more reliable so far based on the changes Mazda made, I wonder if they would make great platforms for modification as it relates to reliability.
Just wondering.....
05-02-2013, 02:04 PM
#41
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Hahaha...true. Mods never end! If they did, then it would be boring and nothing would be learned or discovered in the process.
It is interesting than when the literature came out promoting the 2009-2011 RX-8s, pretty much nothing was mentioned about the changes in the engine. The focus was all on cosmetic and suspension upgrades. Clearly, Mazda did not want to talk openly about the changes they made to the engine, perhaps avoiding recognizing openly what the physical issues with the S1 engines were.
I had question for you. On your most recent engine - the one that Rob from Pineapple racing built for you -, what made you decide to go for another S1 project to begin with? You had already gone through two prior engines. Did you explore the possibility of getting a Series2 and boost it instead?
I do know there's more aftermarket support to boost the S1s, plus reliability and boosting often don't go together regardless anyway. But provided that the S2s seem more reliable so far based on the changes Mazda made, I wonder if they would make great platforms for modification as it relates to reliability.
Just wondering.....
It is interesting than when the literature came out promoting the 2009-2011 RX-8s, pretty much nothing was mentioned about the changes in the engine. The focus was all on cosmetic and suspension upgrades. Clearly, Mazda did not want to talk openly about the changes they made to the engine, perhaps avoiding recognizing openly what the physical issues with the S1 engines were.
I had question for you. On your most recent engine - the one that Rob from Pineapple racing built for you -, what made you decide to go for another S1 project to begin with? You had already gone through two prior engines. Did you explore the possibility of getting a Series2 and boost it instead?
I do know there's more aftermarket support to boost the S1s, plus reliability and boosting often don't go together regardless anyway. But provided that the S2s seem more reliable so far based on the changes Mazda made, I wonder if they would make great platforms for modification as it relates to reliability.
Just wondering.....
Yeah they obviously made a decision to not talk about the S1 engine debacle.
Putting an S2 engine in an S1 is just not realistic from a practical stand point. So many things would need to be changed it just doesn't make sense. But now that tuning is an option on the S2 I am excited to see who will be the first here to pull the trigger on turbocharging or supercharging an S2.
When this one blows I am not sure if I will go with an REW swap or just take everything (including the turbo kit) I can off of my 04' and put it on an 09'+.
I have been looking and the prices are crazy. I found an immaculate one owner CWP 09' 6 speed Touring with only 7,000 miles on it for $16,999.00.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 05-02-2013 at 02:08 PM.
05-02-2013, 02:32 PM
#42
Registered
Yeah they obviously made a decision to not talk about the S1 engine debacle.
Putting an S2 engine in an S1 is just not realistic from a practical stand point. So many things would need to be changed it just doesn't make sense. But now that tuning is an option on the S2 I am excited to see who will be the first here to pull the trigger on turbocharging or supercharging an S2.
When this one blows I am not sure if I will go with an REW swap or just take everything (including the turbo kit) I can off of my 04' and put it on an 09'+.
I have been looking and the prices are crazy. I found an immaculate one owner CWP 09' 6 speed Touring with only 7,000 miles on it for $16,999.00.
Putting an S2 engine in an S1 is just not realistic from a practical stand point. So many things would need to be changed it just doesn't make sense. But now that tuning is an option on the S2 I am excited to see who will be the first here to pull the trigger on turbocharging or supercharging an S2.
When this one blows I am not sure if I will go with an REW swap or just take everything (including the turbo kit) I can off of my 04' and put it on an 09'+.
I have been looking and the prices are crazy. I found an immaculate one owner CWP 09' 6 speed Touring with only 7,000 miles on it for $16,999.00.
I would go with an S2 without a doubt. What I meant to ask was if you had considered just getting an S2 and go from there - as opposed to building yours. I can only imagine how impractical it would be trying to fit an S2 engine into an S1 shell.
Also, if improvements in lubrication from the added injector(s) is not a big determining factor, then that would add to the whole debate of premixing in the S2 models. I imagine some S2 owners are premixing as well.
05-02-2013, 03:00 PM
#43
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah if I get an S2 I would be able to swap over just about everything. I think those who premix on an S2 mostly just do it just because it makes them feel better or because others suggest it on the S1. Like Teamrx8 says, "monkey see, monkey do". We all do that in one way or another I think, I know I am guilty of having done that but I am trying to not do that again, it is just not a good idea. I don't see any benefit and the S2's still have some failing cat issues (especially tracked cars) from time to time so I would vote no on premix.
But honestly 99% of the S2 owners I have met generally have no clue about the specific mechanical changes on the S2, they just know they have a reputation for being more reliable.
But honestly 99% of the S2 owners I have met generally have no clue about the specific mechanical changes on the S2, they just know they have a reputation for being more reliable.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 05-02-2013 at 03:31 PM.
05-02-2013, 03:40 PM
#45
Registered
Yeah if I get an S2 I would be able to swap over just about everything. I think those who premix on an S2 mostly just do it just because it makes them feel better or because others suggest it on the S1. Like Teamrx8 says, "monkey see, monkey do". We all do that in one way or another I think, I know I am guilty of having done that. I don't see any benefit and the S2's still have some failing cat issues (especially tracked cars) from time to time so I would vote no on premix.
But honestly 99% of the S2 owners I have met generally have no clue about the specific mechanical changes on the S2, they just know they have a reputation for being more reliable.
But honestly 99% of the S2 owners I have met generally have no clue about the specific mechanical changes on the S2, they just know they have a reputation for being more reliable.
Hahahahaha!
Never know what you gonna get! LOL
YOu missed the first part of that statement where he says "my momma always said..." or something like that.
Best movie ever
05-02-2013, 03:56 PM
#46
one test i would like to see done is the temperatures of the side seals / corner seals / side plates on a premixed engine vs non. If I had to guess, I would say that the temperatures on the premixed engines are a bit cooler due to there being less friction between the two surfaces. Now does that help increase reliability? who knows, but it is one less thing to be concerned about, especially when tracking.
05-02-2013, 04:10 PM
#47
Registered
one test i would like to see done is the temperatures of the side seals / corner seals / side plates on a premixed engine vs non. If I had to guess, I would say that the temperatures on the premixed engines are a bit cooler due to there being less friction between the two surfaces. Now does that help increase reliability? who knows, but it is one less thing to be concerned about, especially when tracking.
05-02-2013, 04:14 PM
#48
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
one test i would like to see done is the temperatures of the side seals / corner seals / side plates on a premixed engine vs non. If I had to guess, I would say that the temperatures on the premixed engines are a bit cooler due to there being less friction between the two surfaces. Now does that help increase reliability? who knows, but it is one less thing to be concerned about, especially when tracking.
05-02-2013, 04:49 PM
#49
Super Moderator
Well i don't have any proof that premix works, except some engine tear downs of premixed and non premixed units...
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
This is an example of a friend of mine: Premixed Renesis Teardown (With Pics))
Pity about a Side Seal letting go @ 75,000 KMS.
A "good 2 stroke" IS the jam.
Obviously have a good ratio to fuel is also necessary.
Also a SOHN MOP adapter used.
In the interest of cross forum promotion I hope G does not mind me posting a pic here (expanded).
05-02-2013, 04:54 PM
#50
Yeah, that is not going to happen but if it were possible it would be cool to know if premix did anything at all for cooling or lubrciation. And keep in mind that 2 stroke oil varies just as much as four cylce oil does. There are many formulations and they are designed with very different purposes. What works for outboard engine is not ideal for a snow mobile engine that revs over 6,000RPM.
Again, let me say that I completely agree that A. hard to prove, B. its effect on longevity is not easily estimated.