SleepeR1st

iTrader: (2)

I believe the USA is the only country to recommend 5w-20, due to emissions reasons. I really don't believe that a perceived higher quality of gas has to do with anything. Fuel has only improved in it's quality over the last 20-25 years. SA/FB's and naturally aspirated FC's did extremely well in their engine life expectancy.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

I think every legitimate thread gets killed by the great oil debate.

stinksause

iTrader: (5)

they also had much lower compression, pp exhausts, and a quite different oil injection system in addition to other things .... I don't think this is a completely valid comparison

ASH8

Should not need to worry as the original 'Blue Paint Coded' Side Seal N3H1-11-C17A are no longer available, MMC are now only supplying the latest Pink Paint Coded ones
N3H1-11-C17B.
A is automatically superseded to the B's.

BTW: AGAIN, split or broken side seal springs are nothing new, it happened 30 years ago with a much finer seal spring.

ASH8

I guess the pics of Rick E showing Concaved Apex seals at 50,000 or less miles 3 years ago means nothing also...got those pics somewhere..

I guess Mazda re-introducing an Oil Injector (S2) to the middle of the seals was also not done for Apex Seal wear....they just did it for the heck of it.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

This is incorrect.
Our fuel uses AKI instead of RON, which is an average of RON and MON.
95 RON is roughly equal to US 89 (RON+MON/2).
For the most part, MON is 10 points lower than RON, so you can do the math yourself.
Euro and US gasoline are essentially identical, though US infrastructure pretty much guarantees that our fuel is physically cleaner.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

They did it for apex seal cooling.
The heat causes the wear, not a lack of lubricity.
As has been pointed out several times, the rotary is, essentially, a dry-seal motor.
It needs very, very little in the way of seal lubrication.

ASH8

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

new yorker--you like numbers--show/ share the numbers/ percentage that you have that the engine is not getting replaced very frequently? Can you do that?

Personnel experience in Ga--every rx8 owner I know-- except one, and he is really down on power--really down---have had their engines replaced--some more than once.

5w/20 oil, out of control temps, multiple factory pcm flashes, gas with ethanol, poor fuel pump, engine hot spots due to water pump cavatation etc, no magnet in the oil system, lowest oil pressure on a rotary engine, 9K rpm redline and engine is not balanced for that, 10:1 compression and weak ignition coils --add it up
the s1 renesis didnt have a chance.
I am interested in seeing how the S2 engine is holding up---so far so good?
OD

stinksause

iTrader: (5)

Heat is carried with exhaust....

In this case, I feel that the exhaust port placement is important as well ... cooling for side seals because important when exhaust ports were placed on the sides. Rather than when they were PP and on the single injector was in the center.


I am worried about how the mazdatrix hybrid motor will do without side seal lubrication ....

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Take your nose out of the book and go talk to the people that are responsible for this stuff and then go out and build/race/break some cars then come back to us.
Until then, refrain from waiving pamphlets and other materials that are designed to "inform" the cretins that work at parts desks and service counters.

Please.

Just a quick note on that:

There are 5 major Mazda dealers in Phoenix. One is a QMD dealership. In 2008, the QMD dealership was reporting 20 engine replacements a month. One of the others was 15 a month.
In 2010, both service managers said their replacement rates had continued over the 2 years unabated.
That is over 800 engine replacements in 2 years.
Who knows what the other dealerships are doing (I don't).
I can get figures for the total number of RX-8s registered in the state later, but it is probably less than 7000.
At that replacement rate, every car registered in the state will have received at least one engine replacement by 2013, even if you don't discount the other dealerships, the non-dealer replacements and all the cars that wont opt for a replacement one way or another.
I don't have access to better data than what the service writers claimed, but I know that some of the techs were claiming even greater replacement rates.
The rotary-certified tech at the QMD dealership, at one point, was claiming that he was doing 5 engines a week by himself.
Even if all of their claims are inflated by 200%, that is still a much higher failure rate than many Mazda apologists are claiming by several orders of magnitude.

Beodude

iTrader: (3)

Seeing things like that kind of make me not want to get an 8... I wonder if using a SOHN, premixing, decat and AP would help a lot.


Seems like Eric didn't have problems with carbon, but too much heat on the side seals from the side exhaust port killed the side seals. Maybe with a good balance of hard driving and low load driving time, engine life could be decent?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

^ Thank you. I knew that what I was told by my service writer who has worked there for years was probably not totally accurate but the numbers are still high none the less. He told me the number for them (one dealer in a city of 5) was around 100 a year (at the time he told me this). Our other SARX member is a tech at that same dealer and previously at another dealer and I believe he said there are pretty much always RX8 replacements going on.

I think the failures are due to more than one specific issue but what OD stated he is seeing is what we are seeing here with our large group in Texas. I'd have to get with them but in our group I only know of three members with Series 1's that have not had engine replacements and they are both driving 07's with low mileage. I know of quite a few replacements in the DFW and Houston crowd as well. As for local members on this board with Series II's, we have 3 09' R3's, an 09' Touring, and two 2010's that are all trouble free so far.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Every engine will blow eventually. Our engines are just covered for a longer period of time than your average piston engine. Also they are a bit cheaper/easier to rebuild than your standard piston engine.

Some engines last to 30k, 50k, or even 100k. Nothing else really falls apart I got 130k on my car, I've rebuilt the engine and replaced the shocks, nothing else has failed on me yet.

Just follow some preventative maint and your good.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I believe they do help but we will not know until some guys (like me) start pulling apart engines that have seen these mods for the entire life of the engine. I have had these "reliability mods" since break in (Cobb was added about 15k into it) on my reman engine which now has 24k or so on it.

1. BHR Ignition
2. BHR Fuel Pump
3. SOHN
4. Cobb AP (lower fan temps, now working on Increased OMP rates)
5. Premix
6. Catless midpipe (SR and now BHR)
7. Mazmart RE Oil pressure kit
8. Fluidyne single oil cooler conversion
9. 0W-40 Synthetic every 3,000 miles or less
10. Koyo Rad (not really an improvement over OEM actually)
11. Distilled water and water wetter in cooling system

And of course I warm her up everyday and get her a good run through the gears. If this engine fails prematurely then I will replace it with a proper rebuild, premix it, and just drive the **** out of it on the weekends and get a new rotary for DD . I do believe the changes to the Series II were done for a reason though and they appear to be holding up quite well (have not heard of any failures) so I think people should take note of the increased oil pressure, extra oil injector, and over changes of the oiling system.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

this is the stupidest **** Mazda did, ever.

I prefer their old way ---- show a chart telling people its ok to use these, don't recommend anything. I guess people are too stupid these days to make their own decision.

This has something to do with stock flash's fan turn on temp and the poor airflow in the engine bay.

Mazda is trying their best to try to mask the problem. even tho they failed, if they would lower the fan on temp it will help a lot, but a lot of dumbasses will start visit their dealership and ask "oh, my car is having problems, the fan keeps turning on !"

Gas with Ethanol, u gotta tell EPA and tree huggers that.

Fuel pump, just replace it with a higher rating pump, its funny that S1 has 6 injectors and they're giving us the most pos fuel pump ever.

it designed that way because most people won't even bother shift it pass 6K. but it will create a problem for people who does.

easily fix with an aftermarket part.

Mazda either overlooked this, or they just think that they don't wanna confuse end-users, cuz most end users are f-ing dumb and might think its not normal to see metal shavings in oil.

Try FC NA's oil pressure.

yeah, RX-8's engine oil pressure is too low for its max rpm.

but hey, its fixable. not hard, just time consuming (need to take it down and install higher pressure regulator)

Engine is "ok" until around 8K. after that it starts vibrating and the rotor strikes everywhere.

10:1 compression is ok if they properly balanced it in the first place, but I guess if they have to completely balance every single engine that will cost them a lot.

Ignition coils are ok imo, S2 has an updated bracket for better cooling, well of course you should replace it on a regular basics, probably not as often as S1.

honestly, all Mazda engines are not that balanced nor properly clearance at the factory, so if u want it to last, its always better to rebuild it yourself or have someone to build & balance it properly.

ayrton012

What a high numbers! Strange. What would be the reasons why here in Europe much less engine is failing? Maybe we don't do compression test everytime.

ayrton012

I believe that there is nothing wrong with 20w oils in the Renesis if you raise the pressure (flow). The "fixed" problem is that the S1 doesn't get the technically minimum ( and factory reference) oil pressure in a lot of using situations...and the slow oil flow causes abnormal heats, so the oil pressure goes lower, more far from the tech minimum. Hey we have almost 4kg rotors! Think about S2, the almost doubled oil pressure is not just for the emop system. If you shimming the regulators (like Mazmart mod), you will get enough oil pressure in the S1 even with 20w oils, and you won't read such a high oil temps. The higher pressure means more oil (/same time) inside the rotors too, that has to mean more cooling even on the seals.


MOP-OMP: The mop's nozzles almost working like a carburators. They get air (from before TB), and oil (instead of gas like a carb). So if I'm not wrong (possible), a thinner oil causes more homogen oil "spray" from the nozzles.

Anyway I use 0w-30 (3000miles/change), MOP (no premix), increased oil pressure, low average oil temps, and my first engine (but only 35k).

New Yorker

Those numbers are strange, aren't they! If I were of a more cynical nature, I'd say the notion that virtually every S1 Renesis engine ever made has failed — or will fail prematurely — is nothing less than absurd. Fact is, owners on this very forum have already posted that they've exceeded 100K miles on their original engines. So maybe it's not that less engines are failing in Europe; maybe it's that more engines are not failing here.

Incidentally, in a world where every major recall and callback is reported in every major US paper and on every news program, if any auto manufacturer were to actually produce a car with an engine where every engine has failed or will fail prematurely, that would be considered news. Reporters would be fighting one another to see who could get the story out first. There are automotive websites that pride themselves on uncovering stories the manufacturers don't want you to hear. Like "The Truth About Cars," for example (www.thetruthaboutcars.com). Don't you find it odd that TTAC — nor any other automotive website — has broken this "story"? They haven't. Ask yourself why.

ayrton012

Maybe the fortune of Mazda is that the RX-8's are only a very little part of motorization so don't get bigger interest by the press. But I don't want to be cynical. Actually what I don't understand, why Mazda did-do not realize, why not bother them that their engine does not has the technically minimum oil pressure in a lot of situation? They gave reference oil pressure for the engine, but it doesnt reach it. Why it is not in the recalls?

Otherwise here in Europe are much less factory recall than you can find at the finishline site.... , the european mazda parts order system even doesn't know thy part number of zoom cleaner.

ASH8

Look, I have absolutely NO Doubt, MY 09 S2 Engine will die, more than likely a premature death, for the following reasons., more than likely due to Carbon.

1.We know they run Pig rich.
2.No AP, never will be.
3.I don't track her, for a good clean-out plus we don't have a track in my state, went broke years ago.
4. Policing where I live is so tight, opportunities to use full rev range are hard to find, unless you want to drive around in 1st or 2nd gear all day.
5. Others.

There is a VAST difference to any Raced rotary and a domestic one and comparing them is again both silly and ridiculous, the overwhelming numbers of ANY car are not race.
As I have said before in Australia it has been documented that 25% of RX-8's fail, but there is one huge difference, Warranty, ours can only ever be 3-4 years not 8. Plus there is a massive difference between all other markets, the 8 was naturally the highest seller in NA 'Numbers' wise, Mazda had to step in and extend engine warranty, if they did not they would have been forced to...Simple.

ASH8

Changing OP in S1's is not going to Fix a fundamentally flawed engine, don't you think Mazda knows this, they simply cant afford to do any more that what they have already done with S1 and warranty. Higher OP is Not going to lube the middle of the apex seal...is it...do you think they are going to spend another 2-3 k and renew entire MOP system to EMOP, OP Upgrade, wiring upgrade and PCM, PLUS a Rebuild (already at 6K per engine and increasing due to YEN), you are delusional (....) if you think Mazda would ever do this.

YES we all know the Side Seals take a hammering, just like the Crap Apex Seals of the 70's took a hammering and wore out early, but as said before you will never see a peripheral ported rotary, it just wont happen.

It is either RENESIS (now 2), Hydrogen or Nothing.

I bought the RX-8 Knowing exactly what I was getting into, if you have or have not ever had a rotary then you must, just to experience what they offer, particularly the 8...IMO, and without any doubt the BEST balanced, best Driving ROTARY EVER MADE, and I have extensively either driven and or owned them all from 1969...(no Roadpacer).

One owns a rotary for what it is.

ASH8

Agree with all of it, except the last bit, IMO it is the owner who fails the car.
Image for you, J.

ASH8

That is because the cleaner is a North American only source and part numbered product.

Subaru (Japan) put out the same product, Mazda Dealers here are buying it from Subaru Australia.

Officially MMC does not recognize its use as a fix, frankly I tend to agree, IMO it is a waste of time (can un-stick a stuck seal)...Only one real way to remove carbon off rotors and that is a rebuild...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Because, even in its biggest selling year (which was a bit of a cheat since it was actually a year and a half), only one RX-8 was sold for every 20 Camrys sold.
The following year was half as many and following that year was half again.
For only every 10 RX-8s sold, Lamboghini sells one car. You do the math.

When Mazda put out the engine warranty extension, it barely showed up on the news at all.
Had Nissan or Toyota made the same announcement, you would see class action law suits in the $100M range immediately.