Possible New Renesis Engine Failure Theory?
01-13-2011, 02:21 PM
#102
SARX Legend
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
Most of you are probably unaware of this (I was too a few years ago). Mazda has a racer parts pricing program here in the States. Discounted pricing and super low shipment pricing. For example p/n N3H1-14-660B: $30.48 This is the first part number listed above or about a $9 savings.
The Mazda parts program is where some of you guys may end up one day if you go Club Racing or AutoXing. Most all Mazda Racers (not drivers) are aware of and enrolled in this program. There is no better pricing in the U.S. None. The pricing for pro drivers is quite a bit lower yet. Look into it or at least be more aware.
Link to the Mazda Racer program:
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/registration.htm
The Mazda parts program is where some of you guys may end up one day if you go Club Racing or AutoXing. Most all Mazda Racers (not drivers) are aware of and enrolled in this program. There is no better pricing in the U.S. None. The pricing for pro drivers is quite a bit lower yet. Look into it or at least be more aware.
Link to the Mazda Racer program:
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/registration.htm
You are pretty much spot on with all your comments.
I am really surprise at the 'lack of knowledge' by someone who races and is telling us all about data and not to 'guess' anything without it (only when it suits).
I suggest owners go to their mechanics and ask, seeing they rebuild "so many" engines.
It has been my experience that most Racing Rotaries totally disconnect MOP or even S2 EMOP's, and add Oil to Fuel for lubrication only, but then again using Oil in fuel may be against Policy and Regulations at events and the teams may fail scrutineering by doing so...using oil in gas that is...or what we would call heavy pre-mixing.
Or perhaps they run both MOP's and Pre-Mixing?
But as Paul's (Mazmart) (where has he been lately??) engine builder supremo (Mr E), has relayed to us, the majority of Renesis that he has rebuilt has has abnormal wear of Apex Seals, and Eccentric Shaft Bearings...
For memory Mr E also did not like 5W20 oils period for ANY rotary, I wonder if he has changed his mind...another story.
I am really surprise at the 'lack of knowledge' by someone who races and is telling us all about data and not to 'guess' anything without it (only when it suits).
I suggest owners go to their mechanics and ask, seeing they rebuild "so many" engines.
It has been my experience that most Racing Rotaries totally disconnect MOP or even S2 EMOP's, and add Oil to Fuel for lubrication only, but then again using Oil in fuel may be against Policy and Regulations at events and the teams may fail scrutineering by doing so...using oil in gas that is...or what we would call heavy pre-mixing.
Or perhaps they run both MOP's and Pre-Mixing?
But as Paul's (Mazmart) (where has he been lately??) engine builder supremo (Mr E), has relayed to us, the majority of Renesis that he has rebuilt has has abnormal wear of Apex Seals, and Eccentric Shaft Bearings...
For memory Mr E also did not like 5W20 oils period for ANY rotary, I wonder if he has changed his mind...another story.
01-13-2011, 03:20 PM
#103
Ayrton---thanks a lot for the detailed explaination. I get it now.
Please excuse my "old school" ways of defining a vacuum line as any line you can hold your finger over and feel a suction pull. (Speaking of the line on the intake not the oil nozzle itself)
I appreciate your patience in explaning.
MM you know I am drain bramaged, one day with training I may even be able and willing to answer a phone! My friends and family kid me because I dont have a cell phone. Well actually I do but I dont know the number and its on the dresser somewhere with a dead battery.
OD
Please excuse my "old school" ways of defining a vacuum line as any line you can hold your finger over and feel a suction pull. (Speaking of the line on the intake not the oil nozzle itself)
I appreciate your patience in explaning.
MM you know I am drain bramaged, one day with training I may even be able and willing to answer a phone! My friends and family kid me because I dont have a cell phone. Well actually I do but I dont know the number and its on the dresser somewhere with a dead battery.
OD
01-13-2011, 04:51 PM
#104
Registered
We have a winner. I do NOT believe there is a correlation between the qty 4 S1 oilers and apex seal wear. There it is. I believe there are some very, very talented individuals on this forum that can (and I hope they do) chime in with some hard data and years and years of experience taking these dudes apart and givin' the innerds and good, long look-see. It would be very wise to listen to those that have walked this path. I've cracked two dozen engines and am politely deferring to these guys to learn something.
01-13-2011, 05:00 PM
#105
SARX Legend
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
We have a winner. I do NOT believe there is a correlation between the qty 4 S1 oilers and apex seal wear. There it is. I believe there are some very, very talented individuals on this forum that can (and I hope they do) chime in with some hard data and years and years of experience taking these dudes apart and givin' the innerds and good, long look-see. It would be very wise to listen to those that have walked this path. I've cracked two dozen engines and am politely deferring to these guys to learn something.
Hopefully they will chime in, but until then, I stick by my amateur theory
01-13-2011, 05:13 PM
#106
Registered
01-13-2011, 05:33 PM
#107
SARX Legend
Thread Starter
iTrader: (46)
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong and the OMP system is more to cool things off and not to really lubricate? I seem to remember that being discussed somewhere.
Thanks.
01-13-2011, 06:32 PM
#109
Super Moderator
Well I don't see how a non functioning OMP system could not affect apex seal wear when the whole point of the system is to lubricate the apex seals.
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong and the OMP system is more to cool things off and not to really lubricate? I seem to remember that being discussed somewhere.
Thanks.
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong and the OMP system is more to cool things off and not to really lubricate? I seem to remember that being discussed somewhere.
Thanks.
WHY are you humoring this individual??
EM, I just love this I will play "ignorant" for the sake of a discussion, well get with it, ALL of this has been discussed earlier and many many times since Mazda did major changed to the RENNY 2.
OH hang on, NO they did not TOTALLY overhaul the Renny 2 MOP system because the first series was getting adequate lubrication...that's right, it was not for Lubrication.
I guess you want to tell us that the 80 or so mechanically changed Parts on the 09's was NOT done for any reason.
FFS EM....Blondie USE THE SEARCH Function.
WHAT a Laugh...lol
From MMC Japan Service Highlights..
01-13-2011, 06:34 PM
#110
Shady thats the correlation, by lubricating you are in essense reducing friction. We all know friction generates heat as we can rub our hands together and see the results. Put some moisturizer on your hands and rub them together. What do you get ..... less heat being generated. Its simple physics really!
01-13-2011, 06:38 PM
#112
Super Moderator
01-13-2011, 07:29 PM
#115
Like ASH said, MOP is for lubrication. This engine needs lube to function, other wise the Apex seal will see premature wear + devil's finger nail on the housing prematurely.
MOP was Mazda's Marketing team's effort, because back in the days in Mazda labs, Mazda knew that in order for the engine to function properly, they mixed fuel with 2-stroke and the result was positive. but then Mazda's Marketing team have different point of view : no one will buy this car if you have to add oil to the fuel everytime
This is how the MOP system was born.
Let me give you guys a little history on the whole OMP thing :
back in 70s and mid 80s, oil was injected thru the intake to lubricate the seals and housing. I think starting 86 aka FC's S4 model, Mazda added the housing injection, intake injection was still there. then later, starting FD, Mazda completely removed the intake injection and relied solely housing injection. there were also a change from Mechincal pump to Electronic stepping motor that took place some time between the housing/intake injection period. forgot exactly when.
Ash, I wanna ask u something, pm
MOP was Mazda's Marketing team's effort, because back in the days in Mazda labs, Mazda knew that in order for the engine to function properly, they mixed fuel with 2-stroke and the result was positive. but then Mazda's Marketing team have different point of view : no one will buy this car if you have to add oil to the fuel everytime
This is how the MOP system was born.
Let me give you guys a little history on the whole OMP thing :
back in 70s and mid 80s, oil was injected thru the intake to lubricate the seals and housing. I think starting 86 aka FC's S4 model, Mazda added the housing injection, intake injection was still there. then later, starting FD, Mazda completely removed the intake injection and relied solely housing injection. there were also a change from Mechincal pump to Electronic stepping motor that took place some time between the housing/intake injection period. forgot exactly when.
Ash, I wanna ask u something, pm
Last edited by nycgps; 01-13-2011 at 07:33 PM.
01-13-2011, 08:38 PM
#116
Well I don't see how a non functioning OMP system could not affect apex seal wear when the whole point of the system is to lubricate the apex seals AND CORNER SEALS.
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong and the OMP system is more to cool things off and not to really lubricate? I seem to remember that being discussed somewhere.
Thanks.
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong and the OMP system is more to cool things off and not to really lubricate? I seem to remember that being discussed somewhere.
Thanks.
IMO The MSP MOP system has much more emphasis on corner seal lubrication than the previous generations, this shouldn't be overlooked
However, it begs the question as to how long the engine can last without this lubrication.... I do remember reading somewhere that the next iteration of the rotary will be adding a third injector in the center for better all-around lubrication
, starting FD, Mazda completely removed the intake injection and relied solely housing injection. there were also a change from Mechincal pump to Electronic stepping motor that took place some time between the housing/intake injection period. forgot exactly when.
Ash, I wanna ask u something, pm
Ash, I wanna ask u something, pm
You can blame boost for the FD engine, BUT it is often that NA FC engines last over 100k miles, this is not so true for the rx8
Can you go into a little more detail of the FC intake manifold oil injection design?
Last edited by stinksause; 01-13-2011 at 09:05 PM.
01-13-2011, 09:03 PM
#117
fixed
IMO The MSP MOP system has much more emphasis on corner seal lubrication than the previous generations, this shouldn't be overlooked
However, it begs the question as to how long the engine can last without this lubrication.... I do remember reading somewhere that the next iteration of the rotary will be adding a third injector in the center for better all-around lubrication
IMO The MSP MOP system has much more emphasis on corner seal lubrication than the previous generations, this shouldn't be overlooked
However, it begs the question as to how long the engine can last without this lubrication.... I do remember reading somewhere that the next iteration of the rotary will be adding a third injector in the center for better all-around lubrication
without lube, I would say the seals will die pretty fast. probably less than 5K miles.
even now on the S1. both corner of the seal seems to be fine, but the center (no lube) has uneven wear.
on previous engine that uses housing injection, its the center that gets the love, not the corner, so the corner is having uneven wear.
Its funny that it took Mazda so many f-ing years to understand this part (adding 3rd injector)
01-13-2011, 10:21 PM
#119
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one thing here, this doesnt change anything and why the hell anyone would argue about it is beyond me, but...
lubrication/cooling, they are hand in hand. lubricating the seals prevents them from overheating which would in turn raise their friction coefficient. failing to lubricate the seals will not directly bring the motor to a grinding halt. What it will do is allow the friction present to generate enough heat to compromise material characteristics and tolerances, in part due to a greater friction coefficient.(time to go read for some)
if you were to
1)run an unlubed seal across a housing 10 million cycles(the equivalent of 16+ hours @ redline rpm), but do it over a very long period of time(say 2 rpm)
2)run a lubed seal across a housing an equal number of cycles, but at realistic engine rpm speeds
you'd find the end result of the seals would be very alike. its not friction, its heat created by friction that does the damage.
take from that whay you will, like I said I dont understand why anyone is still discussing this stuff anyway.
lubrication/cooling, they are hand in hand. lubricating the seals prevents them from overheating which would in turn raise their friction coefficient. failing to lubricate the seals will not directly bring the motor to a grinding halt. What it will do is allow the friction present to generate enough heat to compromise material characteristics and tolerances, in part due to a greater friction coefficient.(time to go read for some)
if you were to
1)run an unlubed seal across a housing 10 million cycles(the equivalent of 16+ hours @ redline rpm), but do it over a very long period of time(say 2 rpm)
2)run a lubed seal across a housing an equal number of cycles, but at realistic engine rpm speeds
you'd find the end result of the seals would be very alike. its not friction, its heat created by friction that does the damage.
take from that whay you will, like I said I dont understand why anyone is still discussing this stuff anyway.
01-13-2011, 10:39 PM
#120
fixed
IMO The MSP MOP system has much more emphasis on corner seal lubrication than the previous generations, this shouldn't be overlooked
However, it begs the question as to how long the engine can last without this lubrication.... I do remember reading somewhere that the next iteration of the rotary will be adding a third injector in the center for better all-around lubrication
IMO The MSP MOP system has much more emphasis on corner seal lubrication than the previous generations, this shouldn't be overlooked
However, it begs the question as to how long the engine can last without this lubrication.... I do remember reading somewhere that the next iteration of the rotary will be adding a third injector in the center for better all-around lubrication
the next engine will have all 3 injectors. think of S1 is "alpha build" and S2 is "beta"
Would you say this can account (in part) for rx8 and FD motors lasting for fewer miles than their older FC, FB, SA counterparts?
You can blame boost for the FD engine, BUT it is often that NA FC engines last over 100k miles, this is not so true for the rx8
Can you go into a little more detail of the FC intake manifold oil injection design?
You can blame boost for the FD engine, BUT it is often that NA FC engines last over 100k miles, this is not so true for the rx8
Can you go into a little more detail of the FC intake manifold oil injection design?
01-13-2011, 10:47 PM
#122
one thing here, this doesnt change anything and why the hell anyone would argue about it is beyond me, but...
lubrication/cooling, they are hand in hand. lubricating the seals prevents them from overheating which would in turn raise their friction coefficient. failing to lubricate the seals will not directly bring the motor to a grinding halt. What it will do is allow the friction present to generate enough heat to compromise material characteristics and tolerances, in part due to a greater friction coefficient.(time to go read for some)
if you were to
1)run an unlubed seal across a housing 10 million cycles(the equivalent of 16+ hours @ redline rpm), but do it over a very long period of time(say 2 rpm)
2)run a lubed seal across a housing an equal number of cycles, but at realistic engine rpm speeds
you'd find the end result of the seals would be very alike. its not friction, its heat created by friction that does the damage.
take from that whay you will, like I said I dont understand why anyone is still discussing this stuff anyway.
lubrication/cooling, they are hand in hand. lubricating the seals prevents them from overheating which would in turn raise their friction coefficient. failing to lubricate the seals will not directly bring the motor to a grinding halt. What it will do is allow the friction present to generate enough heat to compromise material characteristics and tolerances, in part due to a greater friction coefficient.(time to go read for some)
if you were to
1)run an unlubed seal across a housing 10 million cycles(the equivalent of 16+ hours @ redline rpm), but do it over a very long period of time(say 2 rpm)
2)run a lubed seal across a housing an equal number of cycles, but at realistic engine rpm speeds
you'd find the end result of the seals would be very alike. its not friction, its heat created by friction that does the damage.
take from that whay you will, like I said I dont understand why anyone is still discussing this stuff anyway.
01-13-2011, 11:01 PM
#124
there are a lot of reasons which caused the FD engine dies much faster than FC. but not gonna talk about them here. completely off topic.
btw, what meets, if any, do you attend in the NYC area?
I saw you posted in the Queens Thursday nights too far for me ... Ever come out to TNC?
sorry for off-topic for everyone else
Last edited by stinksause; 01-13-2011 at 11:05 PM.