My sneaky plan to extend engine life for Series I
There's a reason for using 5w-20.
If you want to run heavier viscosity for whatever reason (autocross, hot climate,etc), you would probably do well to use 5w-30 rather than 5w-30.
The reason is that 5w is much easier on the car for cold starts. 15w is quite a bit more viscous than 5w when the engine is cold. Using 15w-30 is actually likely to decrease reliability over the long run.
A good place to start reading on oil: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
I will definitely vouch for that one from personal experience.
About 3 years ago I bought a 1 owner 1989 RX-7, 86k driven by an adult female.
The car had probably never been driven over 5k RPM.
The secondary port actuators were so badly carboned up that that even after 3 days of soaking in gumout, driving the actuator rods out of the intake manifold destroyed them. Fortunately I found a local spare.
So, yeah, find a twisty road and get the revs up.
When you compare the two water pumps side by side, it's easy to see why the stock pump cavitates. For those not familiar with this, the 2nd RX7 water pump looks much like the one from Mazmart. The 2nd gen pump is not a bolt on option though.
I have an autox only FD with the Remedy water pump. In addition it has a v-mount with Koyo rad, twin 19 row oil coolers, as well as oil/coolant passage mods in the engine.
On a 96f day of autocrossing, the oil never exceeds 215 and coolant never exceeds 210. The water pump is only part of the mods, but one I consider necessary since the motor spends a lot of time above 7k RPM.
If you want to run heavier viscosity for whatever reason (autocross, hot climate,etc), you would probably do well to use 5w-30 rather than 5w-30.
The reason is that 5w is much easier on the car for cold starts. 15w is quite a bit more viscous than 5w when the engine is cold. Using 15w-30 is actually likely to decrease reliability over the long run.
A good place to start reading on oil: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/
I will definitely vouch for that one from personal experience.
About 3 years ago I bought a 1 owner 1989 RX-7, 86k driven by an adult female.
The car had probably never been driven over 5k RPM.
The secondary port actuators were so badly carboned up that that even after 3 days of soaking in gumout, driving the actuator rods out of the intake manifold destroyed them. Fortunately I found a local spare.
So, yeah, find a twisty road and get the revs up.
When you compare the two water pumps side by side, it's easy to see why the stock pump cavitates. For those not familiar with this, the 2nd RX7 water pump looks much like the one from Mazmart. The 2nd gen pump is not a bolt on option though.
I have an autox only FD with the Remedy water pump. In addition it has a v-mount with Koyo rad, twin 19 row oil coolers, as well as oil/coolant passage mods in the engine.
On a 96f day of autocrossing, the oil never exceeds 215 and coolant never exceeds 210. The water pump is only part of the mods, but one I consider necessary since the motor spends a lot of time above 7k RPM.
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The stock impeller kind of churns it up and points it in the general direction.
As mentioned before, the 2nd Gen RX-7's used the same design that ReMedy is using. Milling an impeller is significantly more expensive than stamping one. The 3rd Gen RX-7 got the stamped impeller due to some cost cutting no doubt.
Last edited by jkstill; Apr 15, 2012 at 09:50 AM. Reason: fixed typo
I don't have any way of measuring that. Take a look at the difference in design: the ReMedy impeller will clearly move water along a path to the exit point.
The stock impeller kind of churns it up and points it in the general direction.
As mentioned before, the 2nd Gen RX-7's used the same design that ReMedy is using. Milling an impeller is significantly more expensive than stamping one. The 3rd Gen RX-7 got the stamped impeller due to some cost cutting no doubt.
The stock impeller kind of churns it up and points it in the general direction.
As mentioned before, the 2nd Gen RX-7's used the same design that ReMedy is using. Milling an impeller is significantly more expensive than stamping one. The 3rd Gen RX-7 got the stamped impeller due to some cost cutting no doubt.
the cooling system---i am almost convinced--needs more coolant flow in the lower rpms and the extreme upper rpm ranges. I am still collecting some data.
Cooling systems get very complex.
Cooling systems get very complex.
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Electric = lots of work.
I've considered that option myself. It is quite a bit of work however, and just haven't got to the point of committing to that option.
whats hard about an electric pump install? Find a spot ( easy), hook up the hoses, hook up the wiring, take the mechanical pump pulley off ( not mandatory) and you are good to go.
Now if you want to remove the water pump and plumb directly to that area--then yea --just a little bit more work, but really not hard to do at all.
Now if you want to remove the water pump and plumb directly to that area--then yea --just a little bit more work, but really not hard to do at all.
While most would agree that a Remedy wp is better than stock just by looking, there are so many more variables involved with an electric one, the opportunity for making things worse is greatly expanded by going electric.
Probably ~95% of RX-8s run with basically stock engines. A large fraction of cooling issues with stock(ish) cars relate to bad maintenence: stuck thermostats, broken undertrays, missing foam seals, clogged lines, bent fins, etc.
Wrt engine life, Cooling problems? For most people, in most parts of the country:
1) Use an OBD reader (Scangauge, Cobb, etc.) to get the real engine water temperature. (235F is considered fatal, or nearly so.)
2) Fix what's messed up in the list above.
If that doesn't work, or you want some "reserve" cooling:
3) Lower fan speed turn-on temperature. (Cobb or RX8Performance or your own switch)
4) Open up the fender liner vents
5) Remedy water pump.
For the most extreme climates (Phoenix ...)
6) *Good* aftermarket radiator. (The stock radiator is pretty good, so it's easy to do worse ... do your research)
7) Oil cooler fan(s).
8) A second radiator.
All this stuff is well-travelled ground and works for the 95% of us who are n/a. The 5% who are turboed or supercharged, seem to generate 1/2 of the tech posts and for good reason. They are pushing what the 13b is capable of. It's fun to watch, but don't let that mislead the rest of us into thinking "wild" engineering is required to get the most life out of a normal (mostly) street driven Renny. In the spirit of the original intent of this thread, I wouldn't yet recommend electric water pumps be considered for the average RX-8er. If the experiments by the early-adopters prove successful and especially if BHR, Mazmart, or other vendors come out with an engineered kit, I may change my mind on this at some future point.
Probably ~95% of RX-8s run with basically stock engines. A large fraction of cooling issues with stock(ish) cars relate to bad maintenence: stuck thermostats, broken undertrays, missing foam seals, clogged lines, bent fins, etc.
Wrt engine life, Cooling problems? For most people, in most parts of the country:
1) Use an OBD reader (Scangauge, Cobb, etc.) to get the real engine water temperature. (235F is considered fatal, or nearly so.)
2) Fix what's messed up in the list above.
If that doesn't work, or you want some "reserve" cooling:
3) Lower fan speed turn-on temperature. (Cobb or RX8Performance or your own switch)
4) Open up the fender liner vents
5) Remedy water pump.
For the most extreme climates (Phoenix ...)
6) *Good* aftermarket radiator. (The stock radiator is pretty good, so it's easy to do worse ... do your research)
7) Oil cooler fan(s).
8) A second radiator.
All this stuff is well-travelled ground and works for the 95% of us who are n/a. The 5% who are turboed or supercharged, seem to generate 1/2 of the tech posts and for good reason. They are pushing what the 13b is capable of. It's fun to watch, but don't let that mislead the rest of us into thinking "wild" engineering is required to get the most life out of a normal (mostly) street driven Renny. In the spirit of the original intent of this thread, I wouldn't yet recommend electric water pumps be considered for the average RX-8er. If the experiments by the early-adopters prove successful and especially if BHR, Mazmart, or other vendors come out with an engineered kit, I may change my mind on this at some future point.
totally agree. And that is some excellent guidance you posted.
First--see if you have a problem! You may not--your driving style, your geographic location, ambient temps, your driving environment--etc etc may be such that you have no problem at all!
If you do--then its time to look for options. Cooling systems are complex--they can be modified in many different ways to compensate for a particular problem. Do the homework first and then decide on what is actually needed.
For example--i havn't seen where anyone has posted about the different radiator flow rates and how that can generally affect the system. If your radiator is not flowing as required by the pump it will cause a problem and all you will see is increased coolant temps. So how do you know what it is you need to solve your problem? Again do the homework, dont just throw something at it, expecting that fix it.
The EWP is a good option if needed.
First--see if you have a problem! You may not--your driving style, your geographic location, ambient temps, your driving environment--etc etc may be such that you have no problem at all!
If you do--then its time to look for options. Cooling systems are complex--they can be modified in many different ways to compensate for a particular problem. Do the homework first and then decide on what is actually needed.
For example--i havn't seen where anyone has posted about the different radiator flow rates and how that can generally affect the system. If your radiator is not flowing as required by the pump it will cause a problem and all you will see is increased coolant temps. So how do you know what it is you need to solve your problem? Again do the homework, dont just throw something at it, expecting that fix it.
The EWP is a good option if needed.
I edited post #1 to include more comments about catch cans [x1] and the excellent thread by 1.3_LitersOfFury on OMP line cleaning [x6]: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/possible-mop-oil-line-cleaning-method-225321/
Not sure If I missed it, but here is the magnetic drain plug, got at AdvanceAuto for under $10 installed today.
[x6] [Several have reported plugged (or cracked) MOP lines between the pump and intake manifold. A reported symptom is lower-than-normal oil use. For high-mileage or older cars, it may be worthwhile to pull the lines and make sure they are intact and open.] Here's a newer reference for cleaning techiques (well done 1.3_LitersOfFury!), https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=225321
[x6] [Several have reported plugged (or cracked) MOP lines between the pump and intake manifold. A reported symptom is lower-than-normal oil use. For high-mileage or older cars, it may be worthwhile to pull the lines and make sure they are intact and open.] Here's a newer reference for cleaning techiques (well done 1.3_LitersOfFury!), https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=225321
Can't believe I didn't have more info about cooling. Hence, added this:
(0) Cooling is critical. Make sure your plastic undertray on front of the radiator is intact, without it, air will exit around the radiator rather than through it. Some foam sealing around the edges of the radiator may help as well. The stock radiator is pretty good, the inexpensive aftermarket alternatives aren't better and may be worse. It's a significant advantage to lower the temperature at which the fans turn on. You can find a DIY to set up a manual switch (cheap), or buy a kit from RX8Performance (modest), or reprogram the PCM with a Cobb Accessport (expensive). Automatic transmission cars are more prone to overheating since they have only a single oil cooler. (The second one is for the tranny). Airflow through the radiator is restricted by the stock battery and airbox. Relocating the battery and/or using an aftermarket intake may help cooling, but also may cause other issues. When draining the radiator, be gentle with the little plastic drain plug; it's easily broken. Very little torque is required to get a good seal.
(0) Cooling is critical. Make sure your plastic undertray on front of the radiator is intact, without it, air will exit around the radiator rather than through it. Some foam sealing around the edges of the radiator may help as well. The stock radiator is pretty good, the inexpensive aftermarket alternatives aren't better and may be worse. It's a significant advantage to lower the temperature at which the fans turn on. You can find a DIY to set up a manual switch (cheap), or buy a kit from RX8Performance (modest), or reprogram the PCM with a Cobb Accessport (expensive). Automatic transmission cars are more prone to overheating since they have only a single oil cooler. (The second one is for the tranny). Airflow through the radiator is restricted by the stock battery and airbox. Relocating the battery and/or using an aftermarket intake may help cooling, but also may cause other issues. When draining the radiator, be gentle with the little plastic drain plug; it's easily broken. Very little torque is required to get a good seal.
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