olddragger

iTrader: (3)

yep-- it was the rotella--same results with the Valvoline blue too--almost identical!

not olive oil---horney goat weed!!
OD

syntheticdarkness

iTrader: (7)

Those charts are nice OD, that's what we need more of there.

Personally I use a synthetic Ky jelly, the cooling version, takes away some heat while the engine runs hard.

csl

Wanna ask what if 0w30 with putting 16oz of Microlon.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Well, I seem to interpret a bit of camaraderie in your post (which I wholly appreciate) and would say that the earliest issues identified by we "in the trenches" have been low OMP volumes and atrociously HUGE side seal gaps. Perhaps you are now looking to the next batch of indentifiable issues and I missed that in all the various discussions present in this thread. As for me being serious....... have you seen the latest BHR team videos?

syntheticdarkness

iTrader: (7)

Never heard of microlon, but did a quick search and found this

www.microlon.com and went to benefits page, but didn't read it yet.

csl

Quite some japs' rx using it with engine oil and gear oil.

syntheticdarkness

iTrader: (7)

I tried to call to see if maybe they did our engines for a test, but no one was there. I read some pages of it, and they said they could give the oil test and other findings if you ask for them. Maybe they can test our engines and see if that resolves anything, but until they do or there is more info idk.

ASH8

I concur,

As far as Oil Grades goes outside of the US and parts of Europe Mazda still has the "old style" of reference diagram suggesting the OIL Grade that an RX-8 owner can use depending on their Climate, and you see a very wide range of oils one can use.

IMO the biggest issue with any Rotary (and this has not changed in 40 years) is Carbon build up and the associated problems happening because of it, like Apex, Side and Corner Seals/Springs sticking or locked.

Next is Apex Seal Wear, I thought by now Mazda would know that the middle of the Apex Seal needs oil as a lubricant since "direct oil injecting" in past RX-7's the middle of the seal has always been covered with an oil film, this should be addressed with their new EMOP system design.
Why this was not done on the first Series RENESIS I do not know.

Next is Owner maintenance and or lack of, not renewing Engine Oil/Filter, Not Topping Off Oil and Not using the Rotary in a way that helps to prevent Carbon deposits by revving the engine above 5000 RPM regularly (when hot).

Nannying any Rotary will kill it.

ASH8

Charles, I find it also interesting that Mazda did not address this HUGE Side Seal End Gap to Corner Seal side.

Not doubting this area is extremely important, even critical, then if it was a HUGE problem one would have thought MMC would have rectified it.
It appears there is no change in Series II Renny's, in fact as I have posted before ALL of the internals rotor parts are still the same....by Part Numbers., and that is all the proof I need.

Any idea's why, mate...

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Well, ASH, I guess we first have to compare observations; are you to understand that Mazda's specs for side seal gap in the Renny are .002"-.006", with a max allowable of .016"? Have you been seeing gaps in the .025"+ range during teardowns? Have these engines also had otherwise normal wear?

If so, would you conclude, as I do, that Mazda allows awfully loose tolerances from the factory when compared to the specs in the manual?

ASH8

Yes mate, Although I have not seen a Renny in Australia in pieces, as up until recently ALL engines were swapped with brand new ones and the Dealer would DUMP the old unit after their warranty claim was paid out by Mazda Australia.

AFAIK, a Dealer in Queensland (about 8000 miles from me) may be doing Remans for Mazda Australia ( unconfirmed source ).

So yes, I may just inquire with a few Mazda Dealer techs I know and see what I can find out...get back on that one.

But yep, that is a 50% increase in allowable SS gaps?, ...

Just throw this out there, is it possible, I say possible, the Side Seal is moving back and forth at all and therefore maybe wearing a wider hole or gap???

Ash.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

I haven't seen the expected shiny surfaces that would indicate longitudinal motion of the side seals in the grooves but I haven't been on particular lookout for it, either. Pretty much extreme wobble of the apexes and large side seal gaps is all.

Flashwing

Nycgps, I appreciate your efforts in contributing to the discussion but again, here are the issues I have with your argument.

The issue of engine failure seals with apex or side seals correct? Those seals are protected via lubrication which is applied via the OMP. If the OMP doesn't inject the required amount of oil into the engine and or people are not premixing to add another lubrication source then the engine is going to fail regardless of what oil you are using.

The issue I am speaking about here deals directly with bearing wear and crankcase lubrication. I'm prepared to discuss OMP lubrication and various 2 cycle applications if you want me to start another thread.

You are trying to take two different concepts and make them one of the same. Crankcase lubrication and OMP injection are two totally different subjects with the rotary and require their own fixes.

Sadly at this point there are far too many factors to point the fingers at one area and say X is to blame for engine failures.

If you want to use 20w-50 then go for it! My goal was to simply get people thinking a different way and understand that the Mazda factory suggestions are not as wrong as we might have thought.

The second aspect was to show people that if you are going to use a 30 weight or whatever then you should try and use a 0w or a 5w at the very most to ensure the best starting protection.

I made the mistake of thinking a 5w-30 was thinner than a 10w-30 when they both have the same viscosity at operating temperature. I've been concerned about engine wear at operating temperature and not even realizing I might be doing more damage at startup.

In the end, oil is a personal choice. It's your car and I'm not going to tell anybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. I instead just put out the information and let everyone else make up their mind.

ASH8

MMMmm...

I just thought that may be this could happen, also, do you recall the thread of a Renny opened up (in Greece, for memory) which had only done about 5281 miles, suspect poor compression.

The Doctor (Mechanic) said he could only find a broken (in two) Side Seal Spring!, not a seal but a spring, in my time not that common.
We used to renew them because they were cheap, and other reasons.
Could the movement of the SS cause the spring to wear through?

BTW, I also remember years ago we used to Ream out the Corner Seals ('A' Rotaries Only) and put in OS Corner Seals either 0.2 or 0.03 OS, my Dealer had a reaming Tool and Jig to preform the task.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

hmm, I think you got me wrong then.

I was talking about engine oil weight might effect the life of the bearings/gears. I wasnt talking about OMP and its related issues.

We all agreed that OMP design for S1 Renesis suck ***.

sorry I didnt make myself clear b4.

Yes, oil is a personal choice

but my opinion is, Mazda is a business, they need every mpg they can, we're not talking about 1-2 cars. talking about millions of cars combine. CAFE baby ! not to mention, I dont really believe "an oil weight that might not even work well with a low performance engine like Honda FIT will be good enough for High performance engines like 13B-MSP"

Flashwing

You don't? Are you racing your RX8 every weekend?

The Honda Fit and the RX8 have one important thing in common. Almost all of the owners are using them for normal driving activity and a sizable percentage (myself included) use the RX8 for daily driving applications. Both motors are small displacement.

The Fit's L15A7 is already being slated to be used in SCCA racing applications.

The point is that your oil requirements are going to be based off of the type of usage of your RX8. I know we all like to pretend we are living the life of Toyko Drift but it's just not happening. 99% of the people on this board or RX8 owners in general are doing NOTHING that this motor has not been designed to handle.

Unless your RX8 is seeing multiple track sessions per month or otherwise racing in track situations where oil temperatures are extreme then you don't require any special weighted oil. If you are seeing extreme temperatures then you have a cooling problem, not a lubrication problem. Changing the oil weight won't fix cooling problems.

Where the difference between say the Fit and the RX8 comes into play is the oiling system itself. Using a higher quality synthetic would be my advice with the RX8 because almost no one drains the coolers which means 2 to 3 quarts of dirty oil remains in the engine. The breakdown of additive packages and barrier protections would concern me more in that circumstance.

The same thinking that is occuring here is the same as you see with clutch purchases. Many buyers think they are so hard on their car that they need a stage 100 disc to handle all that punishment. The truth is they don't need anything more than a basic upgrade.

PhillipM

Actually, while we're on the subject of the OMP - I'm assuming that it just opens for a set duration depending on the engine load/rpms (Mines in the bin, so I might be wrong), but if so, far less of a 20w-50 oil is going to be injected especially when the engine is warming up, than that of an equivalent 0w-20/30/40 oil for the same opening duration...

Bingo, our oil cooler is 22"x18"....

At the end of the day, if you're having to run 50-60 weight oils because the oil temperatures on your car are so high, the oil is probably rapidly breaking down through overheating anyway.

ayrton012

All of you forget about that Mazda Japan prefers 0w-30 for the Renesis now (attached). As AEHaas stated, you can't find better than 0w for cold start, and use the lowest warm side index (30) which meets the factory reference pressure even at the hottest possible oil temp in the average traffic situations.

The Mazda needed 5 years to recognize the advantage of the 0w and the full syn oil in the Renesis.

ayrton012

In Europe:

Oil pump's rotors:

FC NA 1985- : N326-14-140
FC Turbo 1985-: N318-14-140
FC NA 1989-: N318-14-140

According to EPC II. catalog.

Flashwing

From what I understand the OMP system is similar to that of the RX7 in terms of operation and those lines are designed to flow a heavier weight oil. However it would flow less because of the higher viscosity at lower temperatures.

The OMP system is guided by RPM vs. calculated load. There are also tables for a throttle based OMP amount as well when the throttle position goes above 70.

Nope, nobody has neglected that aspect. While Mazda hasn't come out and said it, it has been long assumed that the 5w-20 reference was for fuel mileage increases. It could make a 1 to 2 mpg difference. Mazda isn't under any pressure from the US government (via CAFE standards) to produce a high MPG RX8 since most of their other vehicles get good mileage anyway.

It would sell better as an 18-20 mpg car rather than a 16-18 mpg. Most vehicles don't get their rated MPG amount as it stands but that's another topic.

Mazda also could sell a synthetic oil because they would have the ability to choose which synthetic is marketed. With so many of them out there and there being wide differences it would be hard to suggest it with the rotary.

There are clear compromises that have been made because of government regulations.

ASH8

They are the same for any country...

The FC NA RX-7 of any year does not have the Turbo's Oil Pump or Rotors.

If you have the "Mazda" EPC Please Print Screen your evidence and post.

ayrton012

You were right, man. Sorry.
I forgot about the thing that europe got only the turbo FC after 1989.

ayrton012

Yes, they can choose which synthetic to label with Mazda. But before 2008 they preferred mineral base oil in all of the official line.
And now they say use full syn (not semi) because it keeps clean the engine (it's an official reason from them for using it). And they also prefer 0w, just for the Renesis, as they labeled it on the oil can.

MOP: When the engine cold, as the MOP injects the oil to the chamber, I think a thicker 10w-20w oil can't make so quickly a suefficient oil layer on the wall under starting, as the 0w does.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Any engines/cars can go into SCCA for racing. so thats not a reason.

NOT TO MENTION, even I dont use my FIT to race, I still dont believe in 5w20. I use 5w30 for it, mobil1, cuz its cheap (6 qt for what 20 bux, thats with M1 filter too, cant beat that). When its done Im going to use 5w or 10w40.

This engine naturally runs much hotter than any piston engines. Its a fact. so again it has nothing to do with "99% of people not doing 2f2f/tokyo drift style." You just need something better than 5w20 from the "start"

99.9999% of the people dont have gauges installed. So they will never know how their oil is doing.

No one said changing oil weight will fix cooling problem(s). but the point is that heavier oil works better inside hotter engines. Renesis (actually, all Rotary) is one of them.

Im not sure what your area is like, but in NYC, we get stuck in traffic at all times >_< and almost all of highway are covered by tarmac by now (used to be concrete, but they are slowly changing it, cuz its easier to repair them than concrete), since tarmac is black it attracts heat even "better".

when Im stuck somewhere, oil temperature goes up REALLY fast. coolant is ok tho. thats because we dont have any active cooling at the oil coolers. Anyway, The oil temp will go up to 115 Celsius ~ at that point, what 5w20 will turn into ? Full of win?

So it has nothing to do with racing or not, this type of engine simply needs something better than 5w20.

Last Mazda's NA rotary engine was 13B-EGI(I have one, yay?) according to RR the engine can go at least 140K miles some can go 200K before a rebuild. I even seen a lot of them make it thru 250K mark. and what do they use? well, 5w20 didnt exist back then (thank god for that), and most of the users are using 20w50 for them. and if you did look at my chart from my 7's manual, even Mazda said its "ok" to use 20w50 till -10 degrees. probably not the best, but still works. not to mention oil technology has improved Since then. so I never really concern about "start up" wear.

FIT will leave about 1-2 quart inside the engine at oil change. and they both take about the same amount of fresh oil.

Synthetic is better, yes.

most people dont need stage 2+ clutches for their cars, yes.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

You should see an engine I just assembled for someone; the only parts we replaced were the apex seals (and gaskets/o-rings, too). We re-used everything else after cleaning it. Took 3 engines worth of parts, cherry-picked the best ones, and assembled the Frankenstein engine. Runs fine even with the typical side seal gaps.

We are getting way off-topic, btw, and maybe we should step aside and let the youngsters fight about oil.