Good technical discussion about Engine Oils
08-17-2009, 09:25 PM
#426
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08-17-2009, 11:03 PM
#427
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So far I'm liking the engine, loving the coils, and the new clutch. I'm happy, just have a little too much smoke but I'm thinking its the premix so I cut it down to 4oz and so far so good but I haven't driven far. I don't wanna say because I don't see how it could make a difference but I had a slight stumble at idle prior to my first oil change with the AC on and now with the Castrol (GC) 0W30 it is idling silky smooth with the AC on.
I had an appointment for Saturday to get her dynoed but they wanted me to wait like 2 hours so I am rescheduling. There is definitely some power in the new engine and coils. I have the mid pipe too but its hard to judge a power difference because I had it prior to the new engine.
I had an appointment for Saturday to get her dynoed but they wanted me to wait like 2 hours so I am rescheduling. There is definitely some power in the new engine and coils. I have the mid pipe too but its hard to judge a power difference because I had it prior to the new engine.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 08-17-2009 at 11:06 PM.
08-18-2009, 09:22 AM
#428
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=140
Quote..
According to Mr Engman: A thicker viscoscity would have provided a greater cushion countering to some extent the mis-alignment that is somewhat natural in engines. The greater cushion allows the fine particles, that are by-products of combstion, to move along without doing as much polishing away at the babbit as occurred in this case. This is his opinion based upon examining bearings for decades.
My own thoughts on the viscoscity issue is this: The requirements for a 5W oil are not present here in the US at any time in the year. The flow rate test for a 10W are conducted at -30C and therefore more than adequate. The 40 weight side that I recommend is important to behavior of the oil when hot (And especially in hot climates). You want to, again, provide that cushion for the shaft. Let's not forget that several other countries have thicker oil recommendations from Mazda for their RX8s. The engines that we build for race teams (Renesis) don't have bearings looking like this because they're running 20W50.
Why are we being told that we should run 5W20? I would think it facilitates a quicker warm up and helps both fuel economy and horse power numbers ever so slightly. I think we have unique emission requirements here that warrant doing every last thing to enhance both the fuel mileage and power numbers.
Paul.
An Oil Filter Magnet is also a MUST for the Series I RX-8's (as they have no factory fitted sump magnet) to assist capture of fine metal particles in your engine oil.
Quote..
According to Mr Engman: A thicker viscoscity would have provided a greater cushion countering to some extent the mis-alignment that is somewhat natural in engines. The greater cushion allows the fine particles, that are by-products of combstion, to move along without doing as much polishing away at the babbit as occurred in this case. This is his opinion based upon examining bearings for decades.
My own thoughts on the viscoscity issue is this: The requirements for a 5W oil are not present here in the US at any time in the year. The flow rate test for a 10W are conducted at -30C and therefore more than adequate. The 40 weight side that I recommend is important to behavior of the oil when hot (And especially in hot climates). You want to, again, provide that cushion for the shaft. Let's not forget that several other countries have thicker oil recommendations from Mazda for their RX8s. The engines that we build for race teams (Renesis) don't have bearings looking like this because they're running 20W50.
Why are we being told that we should run 5W20? I would think it facilitates a quicker warm up and helps both fuel economy and horse power numbers ever so slightly. I think we have unique emission requirements here that warrant doing every last thing to enhance both the fuel mileage and power numbers.
Paul.
An Oil Filter Magnet is also a MUST for the Series I RX-8's (as they have no factory fitted sump magnet) to assist capture of fine metal particles in your engine oil.
Now, MY thoughts are these. People have always quoted the mantra "Most wear occurs at start up". I don't know if this was true when oils were less modern (Not capable of being retained in integral parts of cams and upper cylinders) but the technology of oils has improved greatly in this regard over the last 2 or 3 decades. I don't know if it's still true of piston engines; maybe. However, in all the rotaries we've ever built and taken apart we've never seen the main bearing issues of the renesis, especially with such low miles, and we haven't seen it on the renesis motors that we've built and recommended thicker oils in. There are problems specific to the most modern oils and the rotary as well, in terms of wear inhibitors that have been deemed bad for the environment through their potential reduction in cat life. These are not present in the latest and greatest modern off the shelf oils and include phosphorous and zinc. These affect side housing wear and corner seal wear.
So.....
There's nothing wrong with using a 0W or 5W oil. I'm not going to use one that doesn't end with 40 or 50 myself. There's nothing that I've seen about a renesis that would prevent a 20W50 oil from being used as it was done with rotaries of old in the US. Again, I'm saying this having seen the internals of dozens myself and Mr Engman closer to 1000. We've measured clearances as well so we know what's different and what's the same. That being said, as others have pointed out a lighter weight oil can run cooler so why use an oil that may be beyond your real needs. If you drive like grandma I recommend 0W30 or 5W30 (The grandma thing is an exaggeration). For those who push it hard with high revs and or FI: 0W40, 5W40,10W40,15W40 etc. Those who do track time should be using nothing less than 40 weight (Same group recommendations as above) and even 50. We use Red Line Racing 50 in all of our race cars including the renesis stuff we built for Roar Racing and we do monitor the oil condition from analysis reports. A 50 does not remain a 50 after a period of time running especially with fuel dilution even in a good synthetic.
I probably caused more questions than created answers. To sum it up: I would personally use a 0W30 if I had to and I'm not afraid of a 20W50 doing anything but good in my renny. Anything in between generally works. Take your pick. Again (As I stated elsewhere), do not switch to synthetic if you have a lot of miles on dino unless you've been an oil change freak and you're confident in the condition of your oil seals(Front cover,rear main etc).
Paul.
Last edited by Mazmart; 08-18-2009 at 09:29 AM.
08-18-2009, 09:57 AM
#430
An automatic, with it's single oil cooler being driven in traffic all the time should probably use a 30 for the slight cooling enhancement.
5W30 FOR THE WIN in that case. HA HA
. Of course if I owned an auto I'd buy that additional cooler kit from those kind people over at Mazmart. 
Paul
08-18-2009, 10:06 AM
#431
The feeling is mutual. Much love brother.
An automatic, with it's single oil cooler being driven in traffic all the time should probably use a 30 for the slight cooling enhancement.
5W30 FOR THE WIN in that case. HA HA. Of course if I owned an auto I'd buy that additional cooler kit from those kind people over at Mazmart.
Paul
An automatic, with it's single oil cooler being driven in traffic all the time should probably use a 30 for the slight cooling enhancement.
5W30 FOR THE WIN in that case. HA HA
. Of course if I owned an auto I'd buy that additional cooler kit from those kind people over at Mazmart. Paul
and when moving, its all the same ...
Mazda is stupid enough to fit one oil cooler only on some models .... they drop a rock on their own foot ...
08-18-2009, 10:13 AM
#432
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On a standard Pennzoil bottle, specifically the 5W20, it says "up to 15% reduction in carbon buildup with the first oil change". This got my attention as I wanted to know what they are referencing it to. It tells you. "Compared to 5W30". Interesting. It would only make sense that a thicker oil would leave more deposits as it can't burn off as easily.
Discuss, argue, refute...
Discuss, argue, refute...
08-18-2009, 12:00 PM
#434
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http://eneos.us/
Got some good info about weights, and temps etc... They said that the main plant in japan has all the info on the rotary and the uses of different oils, but I didn't call them incase they don't speak english.
Got some good info about weights, and temps etc... They said that the main plant in japan has all the info on the rotary and the uses of different oils, but I didn't call them incase they don't speak english.
08-18-2009, 12:19 PM
#436
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I figured I'd link it since it also talks about deisel too. Probably get some more great info from them to help in the debates. Went to the japan site, and they have some good info also.
Gotta go to products, then eneos oil
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=eneos+oil+j...h%2Findex.html
Gotta go to products, then eneos oil
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=eneos+oil+j...h%2Findex.html
Last edited by syntheticdarkness; 08-18-2009 at 12:23 PM.
08-18-2009, 05:27 PM
#437
Super Moderator
This Paul guy doesn't know what he's talking about. I wouldn't trust him.
Now, MY thoughts are these. People have always quoted the mantra "Most wear occurs at start up". I don't know if this was true when oils were less modern (Not capable of being retained in integral parts of cams and upper cylinders) but the technology of oils has improved greatly in this regard over the last 2 or 3 decades. I don't know if it's still true of piston engines; maybe. However, in all the rotaries we've ever built and taken apart we've never seen the main bearing issues of the renesis, especially with such low miles, and we haven't seen it on the renesis motors that we've built and recommended thicker oils in. There are problems specific to the most modern oils and the rotary as well, in terms of wear inhibitors that have been deemed bad for the environment through their potential reduction in cat life. These are not present in the latest and greatest modern off the shelf oils and include phosphorous and zinc. These affect side housing wear and corner seal wear.
So.....
There's nothing wrong with using a 0W or 5W oil. I'm not going to use one that doesn't end with 40 or 50 myself. There's nothing that I've seen about a renesis that would prevent a 20W50 oil from being used as it was done with rotaries of old in the US. Again, I'm saying this having seen the internals of dozens myself and Mr Engman closer to 1000. We've measured clearances as well so we know what's different and what's the same. That being said, as others have pointed out a lighter weight oil can run cooler so why use an oil that may be beyond your real needs. If you drive like grandma I recommend 0W30 or 5W30 (The grandma thing is an exaggeration). For those who push it hard with high revs and or FI: 0W40, 5W40,10W40,15W40 etc. Those who do track time should be using nothing less than 40 weight (Same group recommendations as above) and even 50. We use Red Line Racing 50 in all of our race cars including the renesis stuff we built for Roar Racing and we do monitor the oil condition from analysis reports. A 50 does not remain a 50 after a period of time running especially with fuel dilution even in a good synthetic.
I probably caused more questions than created answers. To sum it up: I would personally use a 0W30 if I had to and I'm not afraid of a 20W50 doing anything but good in my renny. Anything in between generally works. Take your pick. Again (As I stated elsewhere), do not switch to synthetic if you have a lot of miles on dino unless you've been an oil change freak and you're confident in the condition of your oil seals(Front cover,rear main etc).
Paul.
Now, MY thoughts are these. People have always quoted the mantra "Most wear occurs at start up". I don't know if this was true when oils were less modern (Not capable of being retained in integral parts of cams and upper cylinders) but the technology of oils has improved greatly in this regard over the last 2 or 3 decades. I don't know if it's still true of piston engines; maybe. However, in all the rotaries we've ever built and taken apart we've never seen the main bearing issues of the renesis, especially with such low miles, and we haven't seen it on the renesis motors that we've built and recommended thicker oils in. There are problems specific to the most modern oils and the rotary as well, in terms of wear inhibitors that have been deemed bad for the environment through their potential reduction in cat life. These are not present in the latest and greatest modern off the shelf oils and include phosphorous and zinc. These affect side housing wear and corner seal wear.
So.....
There's nothing wrong with using a 0W or 5W oil. I'm not going to use one that doesn't end with 40 or 50 myself. There's nothing that I've seen about a renesis that would prevent a 20W50 oil from being used as it was done with rotaries of old in the US. Again, I'm saying this having seen the internals of dozens myself and Mr Engman closer to 1000. We've measured clearances as well so we know what's different and what's the same. That being said, as others have pointed out a lighter weight oil can run cooler so why use an oil that may be beyond your real needs. If you drive like grandma I recommend 0W30 or 5W30 (The grandma thing is an exaggeration). For those who push it hard with high revs and or FI: 0W40, 5W40,10W40,15W40 etc. Those who do track time should be using nothing less than 40 weight (Same group recommendations as above) and even 50. We use Red Line Racing 50 in all of our race cars including the renesis stuff we built for Roar Racing and we do monitor the oil condition from analysis reports. A 50 does not remain a 50 after a period of time running especially with fuel dilution even in a good synthetic.
I probably caused more questions than created answers. To sum it up: I would personally use a 0W30 if I had to and I'm not afraid of a 20W50 doing anything but good in my renny. Anything in between generally works. Take your pick. Again (As I stated elsewhere), do not switch to synthetic if you have a lot of miles on dino unless you've been an oil change freak and you're confident in the condition of your oil seals(Front cover,rear main etc).
Paul.
Am I in trouble??
Anyway I agree with you Paul and Mr E.
The only real difference with previous rotaries is the RENESIS revs higher, with perhaps a slightly higher load on bearings.
BUT, to answer the 20W50 question, ALL of the Australian RX-8 Owners Manuals printed in Japan says to use the appropriate engine oil to suit your climate.
They list the Full Range of Viscosities from 0W50 to 20W50, etc. can be used in the RX-8.
Our engines are the same worldwide internally...and most other add ons.
08-18-2009, 09:25 PM
#438
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I've not seen any UOA's to support this. For the most part all Ester based oils are going to be expensive because the materials have to be gathered in nature.
Paul thanks again for the information you have provided! I still believe that some of what I've posted has been misinterperted as I'm not saying that everyone should be using a 20 weight oil and nothing else. In case I wasn't clear I'll make my point again.
First, the various bits of research I've done (beyond what Dr. Haas posted) has lead me to conclude that startup lubrication issues are not being taken into consideration when people chose an oil for their car. Applications are going to be everything and there are vast differences between a daily driven rotary car and one that is mostly track or a complete race car.
Street cars must endure thousands or tens of thousands of starts and stops as well as 100k+ miles in all kinds of climates from very hot to very cold. They must deal with rain, snow and sunshine.
Race cars are rarely driven but are driven very hard for long periods of time. They also have frequent rebuilds and are maintained by skilled professionals.
As Paul pointed out, your oil requirements would change depending on your application. I can tell you from my own personal experience I would not run a 20w oil on the race track.
Since 99% of the RX8 owners are street or some moderate race owners that means the vast majority of us don't use our cars in serious performance situations regardless of how much of a JDM drifter you think you might be. As such, your oil requirements are going to be very close to what Mazda recommends.
Everyone thinks they drive their RX8 harder than everyone else. It's simply not true. We all live within the capabilities of this motor with a few exceptions.
08-18-2009, 10:00 PM
#439
Super Moderator
I also like to view the history of said parts that actually work with engine oils.
Stationary gear bearings (2) are the same part # from 1992 RX-7 to 2009 RX-8.
Rotor Bearings (2) are the same as above.
Oil Control Rings are the same for all rotaries from 10A,12A,13B,RENNY.
Oil Control Ring Springs have some Identical parts used in 10A or 12A and 13B's.
These bearings are the critical parts that need engine oil at start up and at full operating temperature.
Even oil pressure and oil pump rotors have been the same for the FC NA 13B and RENNY 1, Renny 2 has a higher oil pump output primarily because of the all new never before used E-MOP equipment.
The stationary gears bearing wear seen (down to copper) IMO (and others like Mr.E ) is the result of the engine oil used as this type of wear was rarely evident in earlier rotaries.
When you have this wear you can get a misalignment of the eccentric shaft and all the component attached to it (Rotors, seals and springs) creating yet another set of wear issues.
IMO it is sensible to stick to a viscosity of engine oil that has been used in the past without seeing these bearing wear problems.
After all this is THE prime objective of engine oil to lubricate and prevent wear.
Stationary gear bearings (2) are the same part # from 1992 RX-7 to 2009 RX-8.
Rotor Bearings (2) are the same as above.
Oil Control Rings are the same for all rotaries from 10A,12A,13B,RENNY.
Oil Control Ring Springs have some Identical parts used in 10A or 12A and 13B's.
These bearings are the critical parts that need engine oil at start up and at full operating temperature.
Even oil pressure and oil pump rotors have been the same for the FC NA 13B and RENNY 1, Renny 2 has a higher oil pump output primarily because of the all new never before used E-MOP equipment.
The stationary gears bearing wear seen (down to copper) IMO (and others like Mr.E ) is the result of the engine oil used as this type of wear was rarely evident in earlier rotaries.
When you have this wear you can get a misalignment of the eccentric shaft and all the component attached to it (Rotors, seals and springs) creating yet another set of wear issues.
IMO it is sensible to stick to a viscosity of engine oil that has been used in the past without seeing these bearing wear problems.
After all this is THE prime objective of engine oil to lubricate and prevent wear.
08-18-2009, 10:22 PM
#440
This is one of the oils I've been looking into when all this research started for me. There has been a previous fear that wide viscosity range oils like a 0w-50 don't retain their additive packages for quite as long.
I've not seen any UOA's to support this. For the most part all Ester based oils are going to be expensive because the materials have to be gathered in nature.
Paul thanks again for the information you have provided! I still believe that some of what I've posted has been misinterperted as I'm not saying that everyone should be using a 20 weight oil and nothing else. In case I wasn't clear I'll make my point again.
First, the various bits of research I've done (beyond what Dr. Haas posted) has lead me to conclude that startup lubrication issues are not being taken into consideration when people chose an oil for their car. Applications are going to be everything and there are vast differences between a daily driven rotary car and one that is mostly track or a complete race car.
Street cars must endure thousands or tens of thousands of starts and stops as well as 100k+ miles in all kinds of climates from very hot to very cold. They must deal with rain, snow and sunshine.
Race cars are rarely driven but are driven very hard for long periods of time. They also have frequent rebuilds and are maintained by skilled professionals.
As Paul pointed out, your oil requirements would change depending on your application. I can tell you from my own personal experience I would not run a 20w oil on the race track.
Since 99% of the RX8 owners are street or some moderate race owners that means the vast majority of us don't use our cars in serious performance situations regardless of how much of a JDM drifter you think you might be. As such, your oil requirements are going to be very close to what Mazda recommends.
Everyone thinks they drive their RX8 harder than everyone else. It's simply not true. We all live within the capabilities of this motor with a few exceptions.
I've not seen any UOA's to support this. For the most part all Ester based oils are going to be expensive because the materials have to be gathered in nature.
Paul thanks again for the information you have provided! I still believe that some of what I've posted has been misinterperted as I'm not saying that everyone should be using a 20 weight oil and nothing else. In case I wasn't clear I'll make my point again.
First, the various bits of research I've done (beyond what Dr. Haas posted) has lead me to conclude that startup lubrication issues are not being taken into consideration when people chose an oil for their car. Applications are going to be everything and there are vast differences between a daily driven rotary car and one that is mostly track or a complete race car.
Street cars must endure thousands or tens of thousands of starts and stops as well as 100k+ miles in all kinds of climates from very hot to very cold. They must deal with rain, snow and sunshine.
Race cars are rarely driven but are driven very hard for long periods of time. They also have frequent rebuilds and are maintained by skilled professionals.
As Paul pointed out, your oil requirements would change depending on your application. I can tell you from my own personal experience I would not run a 20w oil on the race track.
Since 99% of the RX8 owners are street or some moderate race owners that means the vast majority of us don't use our cars in serious performance situations regardless of how much of a JDM drifter you think you might be. As such, your oil requirements are going to be very close to what Mazda recommends.
Everyone thinks they drive their RX8 harder than everyone else. It's simply not true. We all live within the capabilities of this motor with a few exceptions.
I think my engine will get more wear when Im driving in stop & go traffic than that what 15 seconds of start up wear.
people kept on saying its harder to pump heavier oil at cold. but how cold are we talking about? 80f? 70f? or 60f? well if its like -20f then yeah you should get something with lighter weight like 5 or 0w whatever. but IMO if your local area reach -20f , you shouldn't drive a RX-8 at all.
if you're talking about cold start up "pumping speed" well, I just dont see a problem there. even at 20f or 10f, 20w will flow, its a little slower than 5 or 0w, yes. but it will still get to the engine parts within 1-2 seconds. to me, thats good enough. plus I will get the "hot" protection all year long.
I have a feeling that no one will say the same if Mazda just put a chart out like the old days. or they recommend something like 5w30.
and I treat Mazda's 5w20 "recommendation" the same as their "Mazda recommends you to perform all work at an authorized Mazda dealer"
Last edited by nycgps; 08-18-2009 at 10:28 PM.
08-18-2009, 10:29 PM
#441
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Well I already have my Blackstone kit so we will see what condition the 0W30 is in in 3,000 miles. I will decide whether or not to change to a heavier oil based on those results. I will have a track day in there.
08-18-2009, 10:35 PM
#442
Super Moderator
This is what is in 2009 Australian (MY ) RX-8 Owners Manual..
08-18-2009, 10:35 PM
#443
****, I forgot to send my rear diff oil from my FC to Blackstone lab for testing.
Last owner is a mod from 7club. when I change the tranny fluid it came out pitch black with a burning smell, and he told me he did a "full tune up with all fluid change" just last summer. dont seem like it. so I got the kit, pour the rear diff oil out, yes again pitch black, got some. put it in the bottle and FORGOT to send it out.
thx for reminding me. lol !
08-18-2009, 10:36 PM
#444
rofl.
thank you my friend.
Now Im so happy that I picked 20w50.
I guess its about the same as my FC's manual ---- 20w50 oil is GOOD until about 0 F. YaY !
maybe I should just use it all year long ? Thats what FC people have been doing for the past what 20+ years.
the bottom part is funny tho ---- whoever put that into printing ... I want to slap the **** outa him/her.
thank you my friend.
Now Im so happy that I picked 20w50.
I guess its about the same as my FC's manual ---- 20w50 oil is GOOD until about 0 F. YaY !
maybe I should just use it all year long ? Thats what FC people have been doing for the past what 20+ years.
the bottom part is funny tho ---- whoever put that into printing ... I want to slap the **** outa him/her.
Last edited by nycgps; 08-18-2009 at 10:39 PM.
08-18-2009, 10:44 PM
#445
Super Moderator
No problem, I and one or two others have been saying IT IS THE OIL ever since I was a member.. 
Just repeat for you nycgps, you have the same oil pump, same oil pressure, same engine bearings, rotor bearings and OIL seals as a 1992 NA FC RX-7, what oil do they recommend....we already know..
Just repeat for you nycgps, you have the same oil pump, same oil pressure, same engine bearings, rotor bearings and OIL seals as a 1992 NA FC RX-7, what oil do they recommend....we already know..
08-18-2009, 10:48 PM
#446
No problem, I and one or two others have been saying IT IS THE OIL ever since I was a member..
Just repeat for you nycgps, you have the same oil pump, same oil pressure, same engine bearings, rotor bearings and OIL seals as a 1992 NA FC RX-7, what oil do they recommend....we already know..
Just repeat for you nycgps, you have the same oil pump, same oil pressure, same engine bearings, rotor bearings and OIL seals as a 1992 NA FC RX-7, what oil do they recommend....we already know..
08-18-2009, 10:50 PM
#448
Super Moderator
08-18-2009, 10:50 PM
#449
Yes.
my FC's manual
They dont even want you to use 5w30 with anything above 0 Celsius. they want you to use 10w30 instead.
look at 20w50 all the way till -10f . YaY !
and it has been almost 20 years since. Look at ASh's chart.
my FC's manual
They dont even want you to use 5w30 with anything above 0 Celsius. they want you to use 10w30 instead.
look at 20w50
all the way till -10f . YaY ! and it has been almost 20 years since. Look at ASh's chart.
Last edited by nycgps; 08-18-2009 at 10:53 PM.
08-18-2009, 10:57 PM
#450
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So you won't follow the factory suggestions from Mazda for the Renesis but you'll follow the factory suggestions in the manual for the FC 13b.
I think you're trying to have the cake and eat it too.
I think you're trying to have the cake and eat it too.