Gas/Oil Premix Thread
M0D Squad -charter member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 0
From: Alabama
Originally Posted by Brettus
In this whole thread I see nothing that actually proves anything - Its all hearsay . Has anyone done any actual meaningful testing for either HP or MPG increase on the Renesis ?
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 782
Likes: 0
From: Sydney, Australia
There will always be a few girls ready to bitch but in the real world............
Been a rotorhead for many years now. Since the intro of the 2003 RX-8 & its 13B-MSP engine. Mazda has been injecting even less oil into it than the previous 13B-REW motor from the RX-7 (92-02).
The idea of "pre-mix" is a good one & if owners where willing to fill a seperate 2-stroke tank each fill, Mazda would do away with the MOP & inject the pre-mix instead. Reality says this would kill sales hence the MOP stays.
Although you all take up less than 1% of the 03-06 RX-8 sales, you guys are certainly on the right track & your engines will thank you for it with added reliability + fuel economy.
Have been adding synthetic 2-stroke to the tank of my 20B-REW powered Cosmo for some time now I find the pain of adding each tank full is easily worth the gain you get.
REgards
Been a rotorhead for many years now. Since the intro of the 2003 RX-8 & its 13B-MSP engine. Mazda has been injecting even less oil into it than the previous 13B-REW motor from the RX-7 (92-02).
The idea of "pre-mix" is a good one & if owners where willing to fill a seperate 2-stroke tank each fill, Mazda would do away with the MOP & inject the pre-mix instead. Reality says this would kill sales hence the MOP stays.
Although you all take up less than 1% of the 03-06 RX-8 sales, you guys are certainly on the right track & your engines will thank you for it with added reliability + fuel economy.
Have been adding synthetic 2-stroke to the tank of my 20B-REW powered Cosmo for some time now I find the pain of adding each tank full is easily worth the gain you get.
REgards
Last edited by DMRH; Sep 29, 2006 at 10:50 PM.
Everyone should.....
I'm not sure that EVERYONE needs to pre-mix.
I don't think I get better mileage, and as for sealing or power, who could tell?
....but anyone who has ever done a tear down of a high-mile 13b will have noticed the smooth/shiny strip that trails from the oil injection port. It is around an inch wide, and goes about three or four inches round the housing. The rest of the surface is usually scraped, scuffed, matte and dull, but wherever the oil touches is bright, smooth and polished.
That is the "net result" I'm aiming for, been pre-mixing since day One.
I'm pretty sure my '8 will never see FI, but it may see many, many smooth miles!
S
I don't think I get better mileage, and as for sealing or power, who could tell?
....but anyone who has ever done a tear down of a high-mile 13b will have noticed the smooth/shiny strip that trails from the oil injection port. It is around an inch wide, and goes about three or four inches round the housing. The rest of the surface is usually scraped, scuffed, matte and dull, but wherever the oil touches is bright, smooth and polished.
That is the "net result" I'm aiming for, been pre-mixing since day One.
I'm pretty sure my '8 will never see FI, but it may see many, many smooth miles!
S
Registered
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 0
From: Glendale, AZ
Like Oldragger, I use premix and I have had the recall completed.
They did not replace the plugs at recall and before that I had premixed for 4 or 5 tanks of gas at 4 oz per tank.
For the recall, I ran an untreated tank of fuel half way down.
I think the engine pulls much better with premix. I missed it in the recall tank. The high RPMs are much more fun.
All you can do is try it yourself. I would love to see a dyno test, but this is what we have for now.
Pouring 4 oz of premix before each tank is not a lot of labor. I use Pennzoil Marine TCW-3 synthetic (so far).
I think premixing helps the engine power at least as much as cooler weather.
I think Mazda is adding oil volume to the injection with the last flash, but they have to balance that with carbon buildup. So they may not be adding what the engine really needs. I think the premix is something the engine needs to arrive somewhere near the oil film that is ideal. (This is me theorizing, a rotary newbie).
Yeah, I know oil is not supposed to lead to carbon build up. Well combustion is a strange thing, and imperfect. So at the edges of the combustion chamber (and the rotary has a lot of edges) the oil present doesn't burn off but does get licked by the flamefront. So you must get some build up overtime, and it will be worse if you allow the oil to get old with accumlated oil debris to be injected in to the combustion chamber.
So with premix, we have known clean oil, mixed with fuel for a clean burn, coming in with an intake charge so distribution across the combustion chamber is pretty good (unlike oil injection which seems to focus around the oil injector).
Let me know how scewed up I am on these thoughts!
They did not replace the plugs at recall and before that I had premixed for 4 or 5 tanks of gas at 4 oz per tank.
For the recall, I ran an untreated tank of fuel half way down.
I think the engine pulls much better with premix. I missed it in the recall tank. The high RPMs are much more fun.
All you can do is try it yourself. I would love to see a dyno test, but this is what we have for now.
Pouring 4 oz of premix before each tank is not a lot of labor. I use Pennzoil Marine TCW-3 synthetic (so far).
I think premixing helps the engine power at least as much as cooler weather.
I think Mazda is adding oil volume to the injection with the last flash, but they have to balance that with carbon buildup. So they may not be adding what the engine really needs. I think the premix is something the engine needs to arrive somewhere near the oil film that is ideal. (This is me theorizing, a rotary newbie).
Yeah, I know oil is not supposed to lead to carbon build up. Well combustion is a strange thing, and imperfect. So at the edges of the combustion chamber (and the rotary has a lot of edges) the oil present doesn't burn off but does get licked by the flamefront. So you must get some build up overtime, and it will be worse if you allow the oil to get old with accumlated oil debris to be injected in to the combustion chamber.
So with premix, we have known clean oil, mixed with fuel for a clean burn, coming in with an intake charge so distribution across the combustion chamber is pretty good (unlike oil injection which seems to focus around the oil injector).
Let me know how scewed up I am on these thoughts!
Last edited by jeffe19007; Sep 30, 2006 at 12:54 PM.
I got a case of idemitsu in yesterday, still have over half a tank left, so I'll wait till I fill up. I'll let you know how it goes (even though other people have already said it works lol)
Originally Posted by Razz1
If you like that Yamalube 2-R, your using the wrong stuff.
Need to use the Yamalube 2-S it's thinner and made to be used with injectors.
The viscosity will allow it to flow and burn cleaner.
Need to use the Yamalube 2-S it's thinner and made to be used with injectors.
The viscosity will allow it to flow and burn cleaner.
Originally Posted by r0tor
2-S is know to build up all kinds of crap when its burned - you may want to check around in various 2 stroke user forums... 2-R is awesome stuff
Excatly
I call his post
nothing personal but ..
yeah, hes been posting bs alot .... at least it sounds like bs to me ... without anything to back himself up.
Im trying to find more 2 stoke motor oil so I can take more pictures, but seriously new york city suck *** and its hard to find some other oil
might have to oil it from somewhere. Ahh I have a whole case of idemitsu I havent even use yet ! (Im using the Castrol right now)
yeah, hes been posting bs alot .... at least it sounds like bs to me ... without anything to back himself up.
Im trying to find more 2 stoke motor oil so I can take more pictures, but seriously new york city suck *** and its hard to find some other oil
might have to oil it from somewhere. Ahh I have a whole case of idemitsu I havent even use yet ! (Im using the Castrol right now)
Originally Posted by RCCAZ 1
Here's yet another data point.
I use Echo Chainsaw oil (two stroke) available at your local Home Depot. It meets JASO standards which are considerably higher than TSW3 (meaning that it creates less smoke or ash deposits than TSW3 2 stroke oils). I've tried Marvel Mystery oil in the past as well and personally I didn't like the Marvel Mystery oil since it left tons of soot deposits on my rear bumper.
The biggest difference I noticed was smoother starting and better engine vaccuum on my engine boost gage. For street driving I use 4 oz per tank (8 oz if heading for the track). The Echo product is totally smokeless and leaves no soot whatsoever on my rear bumper.
I have heard in the past that premixing will shorten the life of your catalytic converter which may be something for 8 owners to consider. Granted OBDII cars have a 5 year exemption (at least here in AZ) from their first emissions test, but 5 years of premixing "may" take a toll on your cat. Just something to think about. In my case, I feel that the benefits far outweigh the risks.
I use Echo Chainsaw oil (two stroke) available at your local Home Depot. It meets JASO standards which are considerably higher than TSW3 (meaning that it creates less smoke or ash deposits than TSW3 2 stroke oils). I've tried Marvel Mystery oil in the past as well and personally I didn't like the Marvel Mystery oil since it left tons of soot deposits on my rear bumper.
The biggest difference I noticed was smoother starting and better engine vaccuum on my engine boost gage. For street driving I use 4 oz per tank (8 oz if heading for the track). The Echo product is totally smokeless and leaves no soot whatsoever on my rear bumper.
I have heard in the past that premixing will shorten the life of your catalytic converter which may be something for 8 owners to consider. Granted OBDII cars have a 5 year exemption (at least here in AZ) from their first emissions test, but 5 years of premixing "may" take a toll on your cat. Just something to think about. In my case, I feel that the benefits far outweigh the risks.
hmm Im going to have to find some time to stop by and grab a bottle.
Mu ha.. ha...
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,361
Likes: 3
From: Cali
Yamaha Yamalube® 2-S
This semi-synthetic formula reduces visible smoke by 50%. That means less smoke at start-up and less smoke while you’re under way.
Low Deposits
By using special synthetic additives, carbon and varnish deposit build-up has been reduced by over 45%. That means longer engine life and greater performance over time.
This semi-synthetic formula reduces visible smoke by 50%. That means less smoke at start-up and less smoke while you’re under way.
Low Deposits
By using special synthetic additives, carbon and varnish deposit build-up has been reduced by over 45%. That means longer engine life and greater performance over time.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
1/2 oz. oil/1 gal fuel (256:1) is considered the standard for a rotary engine with functioning MOP
Amsoil Sauber Professional Smokeless Formula here; semi-synthetic
It was easy to get locally. Occasionally I can smell it on an initial cold startup, but outside that you'd never know that it was in there. Just changed the plugs the other night; perfect tan color. Same for inside the exhaust system, no soot, etc.
Amsoil Sauber Professional Smokeless Formula here; semi-synthetic
It was easy to get locally. Occasionally I can smell it on an initial cold startup, but outside that you'd never know that it was in there. Just changed the plugs the other night; perfect tan color. Same for inside the exhaust system, no soot, etc.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by AdRoCK3217
Ok, err, fouling of the plugs will happen MAYBE. Oil along the apex seal is a good thing, its how we form compression without leaving huge trails of scarring on the rotor housings.
There is no need to "choose a premix". Any non-synthetic oils that you premix will be 99.9% burned off in the combustion cycle.
Until you premix about 4-5oz PER GALLON, there will be no serious problems besides increased fouling of the spark plugs. I'm not sure HOW you can possibly add that much, that would be like 2-3 quarts of premix per tankful, which you'd have to be a moron to do.
With the OMP functioning as stock, I'd premix no more than 4-5oz per 10 gallons. Perhaps less, like 3oz. The stock system injects plenty as it is, with the newest flash, anyways. This is really just an "extra barrier" of protection, no need to overdo it.
THAT SAID! The premix of choice for rotary engines, and used by Mazda in the 787B in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, would be Idemitsu! Specially formulated FOR Rotaries, not just for every run-of-the-mill engine! Trusted by Mazda, is it OBVIOUSLY the best choice. I use it exclusively in all my rotaries.
Available at www.rx7.com. Go to RX8, then Engine, and finally, Maintenance.
There is no need to "choose a premix". Any non-synthetic oils that you premix will be 99.9% burned off in the combustion cycle.
Until you premix about 4-5oz PER GALLON, there will be no serious problems besides increased fouling of the spark plugs. I'm not sure HOW you can possibly add that much, that would be like 2-3 quarts of premix per tankful, which you'd have to be a moron to do.
With the OMP functioning as stock, I'd premix no more than 4-5oz per 10 gallons. Perhaps less, like 3oz. The stock system injects plenty as it is, with the newest flash, anyways. This is really just an "extra barrier" of protection, no need to overdo it.
THAT SAID! The premix of choice for rotary engines, and used by Mazda in the 787B in the 24 Hours of Le Mans, would be Idemitsu! Specially formulated FOR Rotaries, not just for every run-of-the-mill engine! Trusted by Mazda, is it OBVIOUSLY the best choice. I use it exclusively in all my rotaries.
Available at www.rx7.com. Go to RX8, then Engine, and finally, Maintenance.
Registered Lunatic
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,591
Likes: 49
From: SF Bay Area, California
Originally Posted by danielk015
Question for the guys pre-mixing right now. Will you continue to do so after the recall is complete whether you get a new engine or not?
I got the recall done (no new engine) and continue to premix (4 oz per tank).
Originally Posted by danielk015
Question for the guys pre-mixing right now. Will you continue to do so after the recall is complete whether you get a new engine or not?
YES
beers
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Hibbing, MN
Of course Oil and Gasoline mix, there are both non-polar Hydrocarbons. Gas will clean up oil and lots of things..... acting like a solvent.
Water is a polar molecule so it will not mix with Hydrocarbons but is a great "universal solvent" for most other things due to its being polar.
Chem 101 stuff.
Mixing right in the tank will work great, just dribble some in at the beginning of the fill-up and off you go right !!
Is the 256:1 ratio the richest we should go for the street?? I though some people are mixing as lean as 600:1 and saying that this is helpful too???
What is the range for using the pre-mix. We are doing the Amsoil at 256:1 = 1/2 oz. per gallon now.
Great,
Jeff B.
Water is a polar molecule so it will not mix with Hydrocarbons but is a great "universal solvent" for most other things due to its being polar.
Chem 101 stuff.
Mixing right in the tank will work great, just dribble some in at the beginning of the fill-up and off you go right !!
Is the 256:1 ratio the richest we should go for the street?? I though some people are mixing as lean as 600:1 and saying that this is helpful too???
What is the range for using the pre-mix. We are doing the Amsoil at 256:1 = 1/2 oz. per gallon now.
Great,
Jeff B.
ROSSIFUMI GAMBATTE !!
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Got the Pennsoil Yesterday and I am bout 50 miles in so far and I will say the car does run smoother and idles allor better....so I have my " Swoope" dixie cups in my trunk box so when I fill up I am all set.... such a simple thing to do with such positive result