Coolant Boiling Question
08-21-2007, 08:11 PM
#51
Yeah, it isn't for everyone. But for me living in Tampa, FL - I'm looking at 18F cooler temp, and being able to get the temps down faster. It's a win-win situation for me, with no drawbacks. 
Also, if you hook up a odb2 scanner like the ScanGauge2 to your car (or racing beat gauge pod), you'll be able to monitor coolant temps. You'll not need the increased boiling point if you know that your car is on the edge and close to boiling. Less chance of doing damage to your car too. I usually stop going into boost when I see coolant temps at 210F, even though that's no where in the danger zone.
Also, if you hook up a odb2 scanner like the ScanGauge2 to your car (or racing beat gauge pod), you'll be able to monitor coolant temps. You'll not need the increased boiling point if you know that your car is on the edge and close to boiling. Less chance of doing damage to your car too. I usually stop going into boost when I see coolant temps at 210F, even though that's no where in the danger zone.
08-21-2007, 08:12 PM
#52
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I live in a climate where I would be looking for freeze plugs if I don't use anti-freeze and water, so it's a mute point for me. So exactly what gain do you guys down south see from using water instead of a mix?
08-21-2007, 11:30 PM
#53
Holy crap Batman we have a winner....
First, malinformed isn't even a word - I believe you are looking for the word misinformed.
Secondly, not once did I ever say running pure coolant was the way to go. Antifreeze + Water changes the chemical properties of the liquid, and it's typically called "Engine Coolant". Why do you people refuse to see this?
Coolant absorbs heat from the block, flows through a radiator which blows outside air over cooling fins, which in turn take heat away from the coolant inside the radiator, which is pumped by a water pump, to keep a constant flow of new coolant going to your engine. This is not new technology.
First, malinformed isn't even a word - I believe you are looking for the word misinformed.
Secondly, not once did I ever say running pure coolant was the way to go. Antifreeze + Water changes the chemical properties of the liquid, and it's typically called "Engine Coolant". Why do you people refuse to see this?
Coolant absorbs heat from the block, flows through a radiator which blows outside air over cooling fins, which in turn take heat away from the coolant inside the radiator, which is pumped by a water pump, to keep a constant flow of new coolant going to your engine. This is not new technology.
Wow...best rebuttle is to attack grammar/spelling
By the way Malinformed is a commonly used word to describe " a deliberate, and often harmful attempt to misinform"
Anyways...I never said anything about straight coolant...I just said that water will carry away more heat than glycol based coolants...as long as you don't have to worry about freezing and other properties that tend to be very important for engine life
Hell...the biggest cooling problem in this car is the sub-par water pump that craps out long before redline
Go back to Chemistry 101.....and I'll try English 100..then the world will be a better place
08-21-2007, 11:56 PM
#55
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I was simply pointing out that you used a word that wasn't real.
Anyway, what was the block and head temperatures of these engines that ran water + water wetter only?
Anyway, what was the block and head temperatures of these engines that ran water + water wetter only?
08-22-2007, 01:20 AM
#56
Underdrive pullies will help the high RPM cavitation problems...but make the low speed cooling worse...not ideal
Mazmarts redesigned impeller does a much better job.......
Adding minerals to the mixture, just adds to the problems the additive has to overcome to prevent corrosion.....distilled or DI water is much better
08-22-2007, 02:20 AM
#57
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Mazmart's new impeller? Anyone want to elaborate?
Also, it seems a lot of amateur racers use straight water plus waterwetter for their cars. If you're worried about boiling, you have to realize that it becomes a trade-off between the lower boiling temperature of the straight water mixture versus the greater ability of the mixture to wisk heat away from the engine. This trade-off is what I'm interested in, but apparently people have had no issues with it.
Also, it seems a lot of amateur racers use straight water plus waterwetter for their cars. If you're worried about boiling, you have to realize that it becomes a trade-off between the lower boiling temperature of the straight water mixture versus the greater ability of the mixture to wisk heat away from the engine. This trade-off is what I'm interested in, but apparently people have had no issues with it.
Last edited by LionZoo; 08-22-2007 at 02:27 AM.
08-22-2007, 03:22 AM
#58
Mazmart water pump > than underdrive pulley? Water pump freeing HP (so how much)? No advantage using both (pulley and new water pump) together?
Anybody finally come out with a water pump solution that they are selling that has a weblink)?
Last edited by sosonic; 08-22-2007 at 03:55 AM.
08-22-2007, 07:15 AM
#59
Mazmart's new impeller? Anyone want to elaborate?
Also, it seems a lot of amateur racers use straight water plus waterwetter for their cars. If you're worried about boiling, you have to realize that it becomes a trade-off between the lower boiling temperature of the straight water mixture versus the greater ability of the mixture to wisk heat away from the engine. This trade-off is what I'm interested in, but apparently people have had no issues with it.
Also, it seems a lot of amateur racers use straight water plus waterwetter for their cars. If you're worried about boiling, you have to realize that it becomes a trade-off between the lower boiling temperature of the straight water mixture versus the greater ability of the mixture to wisk heat away from the engine. This trade-off is what I'm interested in, but apparently people have had no issues with it.
There are other reasons racers use water only....heat capacity is one...plus coolant is hellishly slippery on the track
08-22-2007, 02:20 PM
#60
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I love how nobody answered my question; what was the block temperature? Secondly, the results of the "temperature test" is based off a non-independent lab test result - show me an independent lab that has the same results + the temperature of the block/cylinder head were reduced, and I won't say another word.
08-22-2007, 02:34 PM
#61
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I understand the POV that mysql has. If the temp of the coolant is lower than it has to be more effectively pulling heat from the block and then cooling down quickly with the fan. But something to back it up would be wonderful.
08-22-2007, 02:59 PM
#62
I figure you guys can search on google as easily as I can, but if not, here's two links to get you started:
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/mo...ter_wetter.htm
So... I suggest emailing the guy with the Ph.D. in Heat Transfer and telling him he doesn't know squat
More on http://google.com
http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/17.pdf
http://e30m3performance.com/myths/mo...ter_wetter.htm
" I have a Ph.D. in Heat Transfer and have taken a graduate course in Boiling and Condensation.
...
An additional benefit of using "Water Wetter" (in conjunction with 100% water) in you cooling system is that water has an extremely high heat capacity. Thus a gallon of 100% water can carry more heat away from you engine than an equivalent gallon of 50/50 water and coolant.
...
But remember that if your cooling system is operating properly, it should never get hot enough to boil (I mean BOIL, not just localized boiling).
...
On performance cars the primary duty of the cooling system is to keep the engine in its optimum temperature range. This is best accomplished with 100% water, because its high heat capacity makes it very efficient at transferring heat.
"
...
An additional benefit of using "Water Wetter" (in conjunction with 100% water) in you cooling system is that water has an extremely high heat capacity. Thus a gallon of 100% water can carry more heat away from you engine than an equivalent gallon of 50/50 water and coolant.
...
But remember that if your cooling system is operating properly, it should never get hot enough to boil (I mean BOIL, not just localized boiling).
...
On performance cars the primary duty of the cooling system is to keep the engine in its optimum temperature range. This is best accomplished with 100% water, because its high heat capacity makes it very efficient at transferring heat.
"
More on http://google.com
Last edited by mysql101; 08-22-2007 at 03:10 PM.
08-22-2007, 03:33 PM
#63
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50% Glycol / 50% water - 228F
50/50 with water wetter - 220F
Water - 220F
Water with water wetter - 202F
Red Line WaterWetter® does not significantly
increase the boiling point of water; however, increas-
ing pressure will raise the boiling point. The boiling
point of water treated with Red Line using a 15 psi
cap is 250°F compared to 265°F at 15 psi for 50%
glycol. Increasing the pressure by 50% to 23 psi will
increase the boiling point of water to 265°F. Because
of the doubling of the ability of the radiator to transfer
heat, boilover using Red Line treated water is not a
problem as long as the engine is circulating coolant
through the head and the fan is circulating air.
Sudden shutdown after very hard driving may cause
boilover.
"Water Wetter" is not designed to lower your car's bulk coolant temperature.
.....yet according to RedLine's testing of their own product, it does!!
Still waiting for those block and cylinder head temperatures too - apparently you can link to the PDF document that I already reviewed to be able to tell you that the testing was done by RedLine themselves, so you have still not given me anything new. Try again!
08-22-2007, 03:44 PM
#64
one temp reading doesn't mean squat
you have to know the coolant inlet temp, the coolant outlet temp, the coolant flowrate, the ambiemt air temp and dew point, etc., etc.
simply having a lower outlet temp could possibly mean that LESS heat transfer is taking place, you have to do a mass heat transfer balance to determine what is actually going on
you have to know the coolant inlet temp, the coolant outlet temp, the coolant flowrate, the ambiemt air temp and dew point, etc., etc.
simply having a lower outlet temp could possibly mean that LESS heat transfer is taking place, you have to do a mass heat transfer balance to determine what is actually going on
08-22-2007, 03:44 PM
#65
I really hope you're trying to act dumb here..
As he said, you shouldn't expect your coolant temp to drasticly drop. That's not what it does. For example, you shouldn't expect your coolant temps to go under 180F, because your radiator fans will turn off and the heat will climb till they're activated again. HOWEVER, if you were running your car at redline for a sustained amount of time (radiator on, of course), then repeated that test without the 50/50 mix, and just used plain water, you'd find your sustained temps lower because water is much better able to remove heat.
Common sense, right? Apparently not.
There is nothing up for debate here. It's a fact water is better than glycol for cooling. Having glycol in your radiator will lower the rate at which your radiator can cool.
As he said, you shouldn't expect your coolant temp to drasticly drop. That's not what it does. For example, you shouldn't expect your coolant temps to go under 180F, because your radiator fans will turn off and the heat will climb till they're activated again. HOWEVER, if you were running your car at redline for a sustained amount of time (radiator on, of course), then repeated that test without the 50/50 mix, and just used plain water, you'd find your sustained temps lower because water is much better able to remove heat.
Common sense, right? Apparently not.
There is nothing up for debate here. It's a fact water is better than glycol for cooling. Having glycol in your radiator will lower the rate at which your radiator can cool.
08-22-2007, 04:07 PM
#66
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Isn't a 20 degree temperature drop a "drastic" drop?
Engine and cylinder head temperatures would be nice also, otherwise these results from the product manufacturer (otherwise known as a non-independent lab) mean nothing.
Engine and cylinder head temperatures would be nice also, otherwise these results from the product manufacturer (otherwise known as a non-independent lab) mean nothing.
08-22-2007, 05:57 PM
#67
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08-22-2007, 07:16 PM
#68
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His Ph.D concentration is probably in heat transfer, in the Mechanical Engineering department. Ph.Ds are highly specialized and so one can get a Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering without knowing much at all about traditional mechanical subjects such as stresses and mechanisms. Therefore, it's much better to reveal what your Ph.D concentration (research) is about.
08-22-2007, 07:21 PM
#69
暗闇立ち込めた。。
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08-22-2007, 07:24 PM
#70
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08-22-2007, 07:25 PM
#71
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His Ph.D concentration is probably in heat transfer, in the Mechanical Engineering department. Ph.Ds are highly specialized and so one can get a Ph.D in Mechanical Engineering without knowing much at all about traditional mechanical subjects such as stresses and mechanisms. Therefore, it's much better to reveal what your Ph.D concentration (research) is about.
I'm just being a ***** on that one
Doesn't change the fact that nobody can show me proof that the engine and/or cylinder head are cooler just because the temperature of the liquid is.
08-22-2007, 07:45 PM
#72
ProCharger, I hope you never give up. Unfortunately, while it's been quite amusing, I can't waste my time trying to argue on a topic with you when facts are considered much like the Unicorn, magical mythical creatures that don't exist.
Keep up the good fight man! You would make your mother proud.
Don't come in here with that straw man argument.
Keep up the good fight man! You would make your mother proud.
Don't come in here with that straw man argument.
08-22-2007, 07:46 PM
#73
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This is hilarious...what part of this doesn't make sense???????
Most of the antifreeze products on the market currently are ethylene glycol base material with additives to prevent corrosion, lubricate seals and water pumps and aid in heat transfer to the coolant from the metal of the engine. [/B]
Most of the antifreeze products on the market currently are ethylene glycol base material with additives to prevent corrosion, lubricate seals and water pumps and aid in heat transfer to the coolant from the metal of the engine. [/B]
08-22-2007, 07:47 PM
#74
ahem ....
one temp reading doesn't mean squat
you have to know the coolant inlet temp, the coolant outlet temp, the coolant flowrate, the ambiemt air temp and dew point, etc., etc.
simply having a lower outlet temp could possibly mean that LESS heat transfer is taking place, you have to do a mass heat transfer balance to determine what is actually going on
you have to know the coolant inlet temp, the coolant outlet temp, the coolant flowrate, the ambiemt air temp and dew point, etc., etc.
simply having a lower outlet temp could possibly mean that LESS heat transfer is taking place, you have to do a mass heat transfer balance to determine what is actually going on