mysql101

Team, The science behind this is sound. I don't know how else to present it since all I've been doing is repeating myself. There's numerous articles online that show the same results. I've found none that show otherwise.

Feel free to look around and report back. Just don't pull a ProCharger.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

My only problem with what you are saying now mysql is that you still haven't answered the original question. You have given us all this wonderful information about the temperature of some water from somewhere in the engine. The question was, between the three options presented, which is most likely to protect you from having air bubbles form in your engine.

My guess would be that a glycol based solution would guarantee that no air bubbles form anywhere in the cooling system. However, since Water Wetter doesn't change the boiling temp it is just as likely to create oxygen bubbles in the system as water is. Now...what I think JoeyD, ProCharger, is getting at is that you can't prove either way if those bubbles were formed with Watter Wetter where as it is documented that glycol based solutions have been confirmed to not create the bubbles.

mysql101

What you're saying about air bubbles is very valid. It's called hot spots. One of the primary functions of something like Water wetter is to lower the surface tension of water. Bubbles? What bubbles.


One possible option for you northern folk, is to run distilled water + water wetter + 15% or so anti-freeze, so your car can handle lower temps. But you should calculate how cold it'll get to determine how much anti-freeze is needed for your location.



Anyone who still thinks this is a joke, do yourself a favor and look up the thermal properties of water, then look up glycol.

LabDad

By "air bubbles" do you mean localized boiling in the coolant system?

If so then adding anti-freeze does not guarantee that it won't happen. I don't know about the Renesis specifically but I do know that there are concerns about localized boiling in the heads of 3S-GTEs (4 banger in the Toyota MR-2 Turbo). I haven't kept up with the discussion on the MR-2 boards but last I heard they reported good results using Evans NPG+ coolants.

I must have missed something but could you please point me to where it was confirmed that glycol based coolants would completely eliminate localized boiling. TIA.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

errrr....gonna need more on that explanation. Either the water gets heated enough to start breaking into H and O or it doesn't. I don't see the relation to the surface tension...still.

Coldest day last winter was -10F over night I believe. I think my thermostat got to +5F in the heat of the day.

I guess I should have clarified that better huh. From what I read today, and god knows I was trying to find stuff to both support and deny the claims here, coolant will not locally boil given that the coolant system is operating correctly. As long as water is moving through the system it should prevent boiling. I will try and find some of the links again tomorrow when I am at the office. But in a functioning cooling system I can not see a car hitting 265F+.

mysql101

heh. I can't believe I'm saying this, but watch the damn flash video:

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_c...coolantFlash=1

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I might have to do that, but it isn't any easy thing of which to make a video!

I think there is a bit of mixing of terms and a general misunderstanding of what is expected of your cooling system and the fluids you can put into it.

The job of the fluid is to convey heat away from the surfaces inside the engine to which it comes in contact and then convey that heat back into the metal of the radiator so that air can remove that heat from the system. A side requirement of that fluid is that it lubricate the water pump, counteract any potential corrosion of the system and resist freezing and boiling.

In order to achieve goal number one as effectively as possible, the fluid must maintain complete contact with all of the internal metal surfaces of the cooling system. Water, when it boils, fails at this almost completely, but it also doesn't do a great job on its own in liquid form because of the surface tension of the interface between the water and the metal. This is where Water Wetter comes in. It is a surfactant (glycerin; basically - soap) that drastically reduces the surface tension of the water. It also contains ingredients that take care of the water pump seal and eliminate the corrosion potential of the fluid.
To counteract boiling, its hard to beat pressure. Water boils at 212°F at normal pressure, but it doesn't boil until 246°F at 1.9 BAR (the pressure of the system with the OE cap in place). This is already 26°F above the normal operating temperature maximum of the engine. I run a 1.1 BAR cap (2.1 BAR absolute) which raises this even further to 252°F, 32°F above the motor maximum normal running temperature.
While it is true that EG will raise the actual boiling point of the water (at normal pressure, this is actually only about 13°F), it also does something else - it raises the density of the coolant. This is significant because this also raises the latent heat potential of the coolant.
While this is "good" in that it takes physically more heat (not temperature) to get the coolant boiling, it also means it takes a lot more time for this heat to be removed from the cooling system. This is bad because if the engine continues to add heat to the system, it will overheat in a scenario where straight water would have rejected the heat quickly and kept the stable state temperature lower and in a safer range. It is also bad because the specific heat capacity of an ethylene glycol based water solution is less than the specific heat of straight water. For a heat transfer system the circulated volume must be increased by at least 14% just to keep up with water on its own.
In a system where large amounts of energy are put into the cooling system for short bursts (like an engine under normal use), water is much better at rejecting this heat through the radiator.
However, on a motor where the energy input is constant, a dense coolant mix will stabilize at some target temperature and stay there, depending on the ratio of coolant mix to the amount of heat generated.
This is why Evans works well on its own - it doesn't boil under any sort of practical circumstance and it is ridiculously dense compared to water.

In summation, there is a difference between temperature and heat (kinda reminds me of all the boost arguments where there is a misunderstanding on the difference between flow and pressure, but I digress). On its own, temperature is pretty meaningless. Only heat matters and plain water is better at transferring heat than anything else, provided you can keep it in a liquid state.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

and provided there isn't nucleate boiling at critical locations, and provided there isn't cavitation, and so on

just the same without conducting a true mass heat balance nobody can say for sure what is actually going on ... quoting a bunch of marketing goo proves nothing

staticlag

Uhh, thats silly, who said that when water boils it breaks into hydrogen and oxygen....

The science:

Firstly, when water boils, it is the physical act of the state change from a liquid to a gas. It is still H2O, but just in gaseous state.

Now, when any water gets to 212 degrees farenheit it will transform into water vapor. This is the problem we get when we encounter hot spots certain superheated areas next to the heat source do reach 212 degrees farenheit wihtout being able to dissipate their energy.

Normally these localized areas want to turn into the water gas, but the water molecules around them that arent at 212 degrees farenhiet want to take this extra heat energy so they themselves can turn into water "gas", this is because energy always flows from higher to lower states, hot things will always transfer heat into slightly less hot things. This is the principle of using a radiator to transfer heat from water molecules touching the engine block, all the way to the radiator, where the heat energy can be transfered to the ambient air, and away from the car.

Now, we can do certain things to affect this heat transfer.

It is of significance that water has one of the best thermal efficiencies that we know of. This means that water can take lots and lots of energy, heck its boiling point is all the way at 212 degrees farenheit, but along with this, it also can dissipate energy very quicky, this is thanks to its molecular shape and its polar bonds which can stack evenly with other water molecules.



Now, back to the things that can affect heat transfer.

Water wetter is an additive that disrupts the polar bonds of water, this reduces the surface tension by not allowing the + and - charges to line up like little magnets. This is what you see in water droplets, the water sticks to itself to form a round shape.

In the engine in the transfer of heat, sometimes water molecules form tiny missaranged clumps of open space which prevent heat from dissipating to the next molecule. This is what water wetter does, it is probably a bunch of ions that neutralize the charges which cause water to stick to itself

Now, what the article says, which ProchargerGT cant get, is that yes, it does this, and in lab testing, by eliminating the tendency for water to clump, the water can do its job better by transfering heat more effieicntly. The tests showed that the engine ran COOLER at 202 degrees farenheit. This number is just the engine temp, and has nothing to do with the boiling point.

Normally cars run a pressurized system to prevent water from turning into its gaseous state. The more pressure there is ambient, the more energy water needs to break free into its gaseous state, this can be intrepreted as a higher boiling point.

Now the article says, that since water wetter wont affect the boiling point by itself, most racers put a higher pressure cap on their water system.

Just by changing the cap on your radiator, you can change the boiling point from 240 to probably 400 degrees farenheit. (granted other components might not like this pressure, if you are going to a higher pressure make sure your seals and hoses can handle the pressure.)

Ok, so if you are going to race with just water wetter and water it is a good idea to run a 2 bar cap or so on your radiator.

The problem with water boiling isnt becase the engine is going to explode, but is just because air is much more crappy at transfering heat than water, and when you have air running around your engine instead of water its going to get really hot.

Now, coolant such as ethylene glycol dissolves in water much like sugar would dissolve in water. It is seperated and ionically suspended. By dissolving this (or anything else for that matter) in watter you increase the boiling point and reduce the freezing point of the water, because the energy graph changes as substances interfere with the water molecules.

Now, ethylene glycol isnt a good coolant by itself, because it inefficiently takes and releases heat. it can absorb a lot of heat, but it takes forever for it to cool down, not good in an engine, because it would not transfer heat effectively to the air running through the radiator.

Com'on hasn't anyone made candy apples? That hard candy made from just starch dissolved in water can get to like 400 degrees farenheit before it boils.

So, water = very good transfer of heat, relatively ok heat capacity
eth glycol = poor transfer of heat, high heat capacity

Combine them in 50/50 and you get acceptable results. More water to eth ratio equals greater efficieny and lower engine water temps.

Now I would never recommend running just water for too long because moving air generally generates static charge on things so your radiator is turning into one giant battery as air molecules transfer more and more electrons to it as they pass by. Throw in water, and you have a supercorrosion setup depending on the metals in your engine.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, a true mass heat balance can be done in a steady state situation by knowing the densities and the temperatures in and out of the system. It isn't really needed, though. A net temperature reading is sufficient to see what is going on.

The missing part of the equation is the density of the true cooling medium - the air going through the radiator.
There is a lot of unavailable latent heat capacity for those of us in a 117°F, 6% humidity environment as compared to those in a 98°F, 60% humidity environment.
That is why more effort must be placed in upping that density through the use of more surface area and higher air pressures or flows.

sosonic

You could mix say 50/50 antifreeze (which would be 50% water) + with an equal amount of home mixed brew of 80% water + 20% Redline water wetter solution (easy to do in an empty gallon or larger container).

You would get a solution that was 65% water and would be 35% antifreeze (pure anti-freeze) + Redline water wetter. That would be 28% anti-freeze (pure and no water) and 7% Redline water wetter.

Note 1- your total coolant capacity (with default radiator) would be 10.4 quarts or 9.8 liters.

This would not to be too far off from the manual. The manual states above 3deg F or -16deg Celcius that the mix would be 65% water and 35% antifreeze. I think a lot of people may fail to realize this and just put 50/50 antifreeze into their radiator. If you are in hotter climates than this would be bad. Water IS doing the majority of cooling work and not your anti-freeze.

Note 2- You could also look for unmixed anti-freeze and just put in something like 75% water + 25% anti-freeze and Redline water wetter. Then adjust for how many bottles of Redline water wetter you wanted. Redline recommends putting 2 to 3 bottles of Redline water wetter for high performance situations.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

The little Flash thing...while cute...stated nothing. As TeamRX8 stated previously...which I loved so much..."quoting a bunch of marketing goo proves nothing." Which is exactly what JoeyD said earlier. You need independent labs to back up what you are saying.

Now...given all of that...you first need a liquid to start to boil in order to get pockets of air all over the place causing your surface tension issues. By raising the boiling point you move this temperature up allowing more heat to be absorbed in the liquid before you get cool little bubbles. This was the point that I was trying to make earlier when I had my numbers all screwed up. Now I understand that you are just going to say that water can store more heat and vent it faster through the radiator, but the original question was which is better for the engine to prevent boiling. With the higher boiling point, the answer is EG.

staticlag

site sucks, MM's post beat me

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

This is what ProChargerGT was trying to get earlier. However, the 202F was not the engine temp, it was the temp of the coolant. Nothing we could find anywhere earlier showed the temp of an engine with Water Wetter, just the temp of the liquid which doesn't really mean anything. While I understand the surface tension stuff better and understand the thermal dynamics of water better...there is nothing saying that the heat is actually being transferred from the engine into the coolant and out through the radiator. Those being the three temp points that really matter. As JoeyD said earlier...show him those three numbers from an independent study and he will shut up.

staticlag

Well, boiling is one thing, absorbing other fun gasses is a completely different thing. Just imagine how much gas is in a glass of soda.

So many variables, so little time

the facts

street car (ie, a car that you want at least average longetivty on, and not have to replace the radiator or engine block, or water pump after one or two years) run no less than 30% anyifreeze

race car run straight water with a additive like water wetter in a high pressure system. May have to replace things after a while due to internal metal corrosion (note = this will not be rust at times, but rather will vary for the metal affected, white scale for aluminum, etc.) caused from the "battery effect" caused by the induction of charge from air molecules rubbing against the radiator as the car is driven. Efficient, but it has its longetivy price.

staticlag

That is what thermal efficieny is, the ability of the substance to accept the heat and transfer it.

its a ton of fundamentals.

Logically I can give you one good reason;


saying that heat is not transfered is nearing the concept of an insulator.

So, in a system completely designed to transfer heat quickly and effectively, who would introduce a insulator?

Besides, if the system was insulated that efficiently as to see those effects the engine would have detonated by then if it had not transfered most of its heat.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

Agree'd...who would want to. However with all of the "marketing goo" (thanks TeamRX8) going around nobody can confirm or deny that it isn't an insulator. As a data analyst I can make any group of numbers say anything I want based on what I want to see. By not including the information of the temp coming into the radiator, I am forced to assume that they are hiding an non-favorable number. Ah la...oh I don't know...210 degrees coming in and 202 out. The engine won't detonate until something fails under the heat...if you dissipate just enough then who is the wiser?

ProCharger GT

I don't think insulator is the correct word...is heat still being transferred? Yes, otherwise those engines running at 7K would have shut down long before the 3 hour period, providing those test results are accurate. Once again, being they are not independent lab test results, anyone can skew their own results a little bit to favor their marketing.

Bottom line is it gets down to what is the temperature of the parts (in this case, block and head) are - not the temperature of the liquid running through the block. Just because the temperature of the "coolant" is less, doesn't mean it's drawing as much heat away from those critical engine components. All I want is an independent lab test showing the cooling efficiency of the water + water wetter combo, that shows a drop in block and head temperature, and I won't say another word.

And to everyone else, nice try with the personal attacks, I'm still laughing because nobody can prove me wrong with factual information aside from the claims from the Redline website, that mean absolutely nothing to me seeing as they are non-independent lab test results. Your ignorance gives me the strength to try and continue to educate you fools that just because a poorly tested scenario gives you one result, doesn't mean the whole picture has been shown.

ProCharger GT

Thank you

sosonic

The corrosion/rust issue is addressed by Redline water wetter because they are using anti-corrosion inhibitors. You can debate their effectiveness, but then you could debate this about anti-freeze as well.

The other way this is addressed is by using distilled water and not tap/plain water which may have all kinds of unwanted minerals in it.

Another point is your manual is stating to use a 65% water to 35% anti-freeze mix above 3 deg F. The percentage of water they are suggesting to use rises with temperature. This would then lead to a good argument to use a higher water percentage, like 70%+ in very hot conditions. It also leads to the argument of how much anti-freeze do you need? Are you in an environment that does not see below freezing temperatures?

Redline water wetter claims it's product is helping the mix of anti-freeze and water be more efficient at removing heat.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

Cleveland weather sucks. For example, tomorrow is to be 88F and 70% humidity. This past winter we saw subzero temps for almost a week straight. Those two reasons combined are why we have never heard of your magical Water Wetter and also why we can't understand it at all. We are also all very analytical people and require substantial facts not "marketing goo". Everything I found earlier about Water Wetter had the response of "My temp gauge dropped in my car from 11 o'clock to 9 o'clock". WTF is that supposed to prove? I could put a chemical like Liquid Nitrogen in there and get it to 6 o'clock.

ProCharger GT

If we believed everything these product vendors "tested" in their own labs, a cold air intake really would give you that 20+ Horsepower it claims, or whatever it is for an RX-8. Thats like the "Turbonator" giving you 33% better gas mileage, or whatever ridiculous claim it makes - everybody knows this isn't true.

Independent dyno tests prove otherwise, just like independent lab results do.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I'm pretty sure that all of the marketing that has been employed for water has been pretty well substantiated at this point.
Same goes for air.

The efficacy of WW, EG and other goodies really aren't in question here when all we are concerned about in this conversation is heat transfer, something that neither chemical actually claims to directly accomplish.

DeViLbOi

iTrader: (1)

Actually the question was boiling of water vs glycol originally...wet water was then added in by mysql. The question had nothing to do with heat transfer at all really.

However, we want to learn about this wet water stuff and in order for us to do that mysql needs to back up his statements with fact. That is where all the heat transfer questions came in.

CnnmnSchnpps

iTrader: (1)

People, please do not feed the trolls!

ProCharger GT, DeViLbOi: Don't just come on here and start a fight for no reason with one of the more knowledgeable and respected members of the board...

MM, staticlag: Thank you for providing the facts. As far as I'm concerned the science behind this is sound:

- Heat transfer of water >> heat transfer of antifreeze due to relative density. Chem 101.
- Water wetter is meant to reduce the surface tension of water and therefore increase the surface area at the water/metal interface inside the engine/radiator. If you do not understand how surface tension matters, you need to think a little harder. If you doubt the effect of water wetter on surface tension, it is easy enough to test (get a pane of glass, and put two drops side by side of water and water + WW -- observe the shape of the drops)

DeViLbOi - just because no one has proven you wrong yet does not mean you are right. I agree that we should take vendor number with a grain of salt. However, no one is going to go out there and spend hours of their time over a weekend conducting experiments just because you demand it. Most people don't own a laser thermometer to measure the temperature of the block. Chances are, with your attitude so far, you would not accept any factual results from this group since you will assume we have our own agenda. If you doubt the effects either try them in your car, or research the theory and conduct some basic experiments yourself.

Oh, and your attitude makes me want to Who the hell do you think you are?

Anyway, case closed. The facts remain. The trolls will not accept them. Please do not feed the trolls...