Tyler2191

I'll try to make this short, but give as much detail as I can. This morning on my way to work I stopped at a light and all of sudden I heard a pop and my car stalled. I tried to start it up again, but it would just crank and not turn over. Fortunately there was enough slope on the side of the road that I could turn my wheel and get the car going off to the side. I was then able to start the car in neutral, but couldn't get my clutch in to gear. I then called AAA and while I was waiting I looked up some threads on the discussion here to see if people had similarities.

I noticed one person asked if he can get the car started and in gear after it's been sitting for a while. I figured I'd try that out. Low and behold after 20 minutes I could get it started and in to gear. I then cancelled AAA after waiting an hour and receiving a call saying, "This is a courtesy call letting know know AAA will be there in 30 minutes." I said screw it and decided to drive it home (about 15 miles).

Driving it home I was nervous to stop at any point in case it would stall again, and the few times I decided to rev the engine to keep the RPMs up.

When I got home I backed in to the driveway, but when in reverse the car made this grinding noise. The threads that I read seemed to point towards either a Master or Slave cylinder when people experienced similar issues. Does this sound like it could be that? I had the clutch replaced 10,000 miles ago, but I doubt they did the cylinders.

To some all this up so you don't have to read the whole thing:

- Came to a stop and heard a pop sound. The car stalled and wouldn't start while in gear.
- I got it to the side of the road, started it in neutral, but it wouldn't shift in to any gears.
- I let it sit for 20 minutes and tried again and was able to get it to shift.
- A raspy, raw, rough sound was coming from the engine compartment as I revved and drove the vehicle.
- At home I backed in to the driveway and the car made a horrible grinding noise when in reverse.
- I drove it home about 15 miles after experiencing the problem.
- Had clutch replaced 10,000 miles ago.

I hope this isn't a failed transmission as that can be quite costly. The previous threads with people who had similar but not the exact symptoms tended to point towards the master/slave cylinder? Is that an expensive/difficult thing to replace if it is?

Karack

sounds like a combination of issues, but i would start by simply visually checking everything in the engine bay to see if anything looks out of place.

aside from that, the clutch pilot bearing or throwout bearing sounds to be the issue.

Tyler2191

Is there something in particular I should be looking for other than making sure everything is there?

Sorry for being retarded, but what does the clutch pilot bearing do? Or the throwout bearing? Are they expensive/difficult to replace?

Karack

try to narrow down where the grinding noise is coming from, something rubbing on a pulley, belt flopping around or from the back of the engine/transmission area.

the pilot bearing rests in the eccentric shaft to center the transmission input shaft, it spins when you have your foot on the clutch. if it fails it grabs the input shaft and will intermittently let it go, but you will have severe shifting issues when it is grabbing.

the throwout bearing presses on the clutch pressure plate fingers to release the clutch. the bearings tend to sieze up and the throwout disintregrates which causes metal on metal grinding when you press in the clutch and fails to disengage it due to the friction and lack of force applied.

Tyler2191

That does sound like symptoms to the problems I was experiencing. So let's say I had to have one of those fixed, how much do you think it would cost?

Karack

requires removing the transmission and inspecting everything associated with the clutch so around $250-400 and up depending what needs to be replaced.

doesn't sound like the clutch pedal, unless it is only grinding due to the gears rounding when trying to get it into gear if the clutch isn't getting any pressure.

Tyler2191

I replaced my pedal with a reinforced one about a year ago. I remember all the complaining people were saying to Mazda when I did it and I finally got a rebate check back in December which was nice. And it's a standard clutch that was put in. My engine failed with 96,000 miles on it and Mazda replaced it under warranty. I mentioned to them that I was feeling a loss of power in 4th gear and they told me my clutch was slipping. Since I had the engine out already it was cheap just to have a new clutch put in. So it's a factory clutch.

Karack

^^^

it probably came with the OEM nylon embedded cheap version of the koyo throwout bearing.

Tyler2191

Is that something I can check? Or has to be done by having the trans taken out?

Sorry for so many stupid questions.

Also, as I mentioned when I was broken down, some people who had similar problems mentioned either a master or slave cylinder. What makes you guys rule that out?

Karack

the 8's manual transmission has no inspection ports so you really can't inspect anything without pulling it out.. would have been nice like on the older generations.

if the pedal isn't broken, the slave is moving fully(you can jack up the car and watch it move while someone presses the pedal) and there is a grinding noise from the rear of the engine, i'd say there isn't much else to guess.

but i would call the dealership to see what their warranty policy is on their labor/parts, since it has been less than a year it might still be covered.

Tyler2191

Is this something that is generally replaced when a clutch is put in? For instance if the flywheel suddenly decides to **** the bed, I know that's something they would have replaced. But are these bearings something that would be replaced with all clutch jobs? Because if they're not replaced and they just used the old ones, then I probably wouldn't have a warranty case.

Karack

you'd be surprised what many factory techs will let fly, even if a forgotten part winds up in their tool box.

some of the most neglectful mechanics i have ever met were at dealerships. if only the clutch disc and pressure plate happened to be in stock, while the car was in the air, rather than lower it and push it out the parts would be installed so that no time was wasted moving cars around. once parts arrived they had a spare for whatever. the pilot and seal obviously should have already been in the new motor(i assume, since 6 ports all were manual and it needed it anyways). unfortunately the pilot bearings i have seen were all quite dry, not knowing if the mechanic packed more grease into it, it could likely have failed for lack of lubrication/heat fatigue as many of them do(although this particular issue sounds like a bad throwout bearing).

JeRKy 8 Owner

Tyler...just wanted to let you know that I got a clutch pedal replaced from them early last year during the recall period, and this year the NEW one they put in for free failed me...so they had to put on yet another. I'm on clutch pedal #3 now. Get that checked out...wouldn't be surprised if your new "improved" one from Mazda just snapped again like mine did.

Swear this is the last Mazda I'll ever own

ASH8

Umm......6 Ports are not all Manual Transmission Engines.

Pilot Bearing and Seal has not changed for the past 35 years, yes it is neglect if any clutch installer fails to renew and or re-pack pilot with fresh grease.

Jerky.
There was No Recall for the Clutch Pedal Bracket but a SSP Special Service Program (Extended Warranty of 8 Years).
A failure of a new Bracket within a year or so suggests to me a few issues, either the install was done incorrectly (a possibility) or there may be other issues in your Clutch System.

ASH8

I was referring to the install of the 2nd Clutch Bracket

In Jerky's case Charles I would be starting at the Clutch itself and work backwards...or forward from the Pedal...

I am not sure what Clutch he has, is it Exedy (OEM) or another brand or a heavier duty kit?
Slave Cylinder and Clutch Master OK?

IMO for a new Clutch Bracket to fail within 2 years I would be looking at the 'system' a little closer.

Tyler2191

Update: <and not good for me or my RX>

I had my car taken in to the local transmission shop. They removed the starter to get a better look at the clutch/trans and could see metal shavings appearing when the clutch became engaged. They also noted some screeching noise. I was informed I would need a new clutch. They would be able to do it for $1,070.

I then informed them that I had a new clutch was put in a few months ago. Upon further investigation, the clutch had been replaced 10 months, 12,200 miles ago. The Mazda warranty for parts is 12 months, 12,000 miles. I was out of warranty by 200 miles. (at the same time I had a new motor placed in my car).

I called Mazda and was told there was a thing such as a Dealership Goodwill Warranty. That they would still honor the warranty under further investigation that I didn't burn the clutch out on my own since it was only 200 miles over the warranty. With that said I had my car towed to Mazda.

Today I got word that it wasn't a clutch that was needed but actually a new transmission. $3,200 dollars to replace. Which of course is much to my surprise. I told them to hold off doing anything because I'm not going to pay that. So it seems like my car is basically dead. I have a clutch with 12,200 miles on it, a motor that has 9,000 miles on it, and now basically I owe more than the car is worth - or close to it.

I then called the transmission place back again and told them what Mazda told me. That I'd need a new transmission because the sound I heard was my gears grinding. The transmission place figured Mazda would give me a hard time and told me they're full of **** because there is no noise when the clutch isn't engaged. In neutral the car runs clean and quiet, but once the clutch is pressed down they can hear screeching and see metal shavings. However I told them, that's not entirely true because when in reverse I hear very load screeching . BUT, I do note, that when I backup in reserve I do have my foot on the clutch slightly depressed because I'm not exactly backing up at 60mph.

So what do I do now? Who do you think I should listen to? Mazda or a shop that specializes in transmissions? I don't want to pay $1,070 for a new clutch and still have problems. And I especially don't want to pay $3,200 on a car that I still owe $2,000 on. I would/want to trade it in however any dealership will quickly notice something is wrong so I can't do that.

ASH8

I agree Charles, either way the Transmission has to be removed, so IF the Mazda Dealer is prepared to give "some" goodwill then I would be getting the Dealer to do the work, but they say it is the Transmission that needs replacement.....?

Perhaps I would "graciously" ask if the transmission could be removed first, then check the Clutch Plate, PP ,TB and Pilot Bearing condition, BEFORE any talk or ordering of a new tranny, I would also ask "if" there is an option for finding a Junk Yard unit or one from another source considering the cost and inconvenience you have been through already.

Perhaps suggest that you have also been advised that the Pilot Bearing inside the Eccentric Shaft may be damaged/worn out (when this Dealer did your Clutch before was it renewed?, do you have the original Repair Order Invoice of 10,000 miles ago, and if you can see it was not renewed I would ask why?, Part Numbers is N326-11-D03 Bearing and separate 1881-11-404A Seal).

Another issue that "may" be part of the cause is the Input Shaft Sleeve or Front Cover, these have been known to fracture/fail and even break, although you would hear constant noise usually but not always...here is the Part #Y611-16-220 Cover, Clutch.

Get them to at least check it when tranny is out, this is what the Thrust/Throw Out Bearing's inner plastic liner also slides on.

Karack

as i said, factory techs, service advisors and factory service managers can be quite crooked.

i would tow it back to the transmission shop and have them remove the transmission, let them know when they do so to call you so you can see it as it comes apart, get some pictures as they pull the clutch off and apart and of the throwout bearing and pilot. i am willing to bet you find a ground up used to be OE plastic/metal throwout bearing that is now in a million pieces.

be sure to remind the dealer service manager what he quoted you for, show him pictures and kindly request he still "goodwill" you the clutch you paid for a year ago and that you won't even mention the fraudulent quote for a brand new transmission.

do not let the dealer continue to do the work, it is possible you may wind up with someone covering their tracks and really putting the screws to you. perhaps this sounds a bit too conspiracy but i assure you, do what you can to cover your *** because they will rape you over laziness, the benjamins or just an unlucky tech who keeps getting shitty jobs trying to put food on the table for his kids(usually all 3 at once, you can figure out who gets what position in the firing order between manager, advisor and tech).

i have worked at 6-7 dealerships of varying makes over the years, generally they all work very similarly. sometimes you run into a few nice techs, advisors or managers but usually they do not last very long.

i'd like to think that just about every manual transmission owner has rounded a gear once or twice and can easily rule out gear grinding as the issue. any other grinding issues coming from the transmission area at least require the transmission to be pulled out and at least the clutch ruled out of the equation first before looking into the transmission.

i'm also unsure why they wouldn't quote you at least a labor price to pull apart the transmission partially for inspection. did they drain any of the transmission oil and find chunks in it? i'm curious how they came to that conclusion and why they are treating it as a plug and play box when they will make more money on labor from rebuilding it. sure, 2 hard parts will put it over the cost of a new transmission but if they're as beefy as ASH8 sais then it shouldn't be an issue.

back in the day, we used to toss them on a bench, remove the bolts, beat on it with a hammer some, then some more, rip it all apart, find the problem and replace it... those days have been disappearing, at least i learned as much as i could while i could.

Karack

i thought i did mention to upgrade the throwout bearing but that was before the development, but not sure whether the dealer will go for that if they do wind up still offering the goodwill clutch. i would prefer to drop the additional $50 for the upgraded all steel koyo version at least. some service managers will back out if you want to start mixing and matching parts on what they feel they are giving you for free(even though they are overriding the warranty coverage and getting it warranteed anyways). the whole OE clutch kit is no joke at $575-700 depending on markup costs. most of the aftermarket kits are still a bit pricey around $450.

ASH8

And you don't think there are questionable Mechanics, Techs in non dealer organizations??!!..what a laugh!

If you ever quote me about what I say please do it in reference to what I said, to use your words the "beefy" reference was about the P66MD Series II RX-8 Transmission, not the same as this Y16MD Series 1..But you already knew that...

Really?,wow, and you don't think Dealers remove and dismantle Transmissions also to "find a problem"?

Yes, many have worked in different Dealerships (including myself) and they are similar here, it is very easy to manage less than 3 staff in any business with low volumes of customers and low overheads (fixed costs).
There are good an bad in every business, I have seen some excellent Dealer techs, and those who basically should be servicing grass cutters not cars.

To the OP, you have a choice of getting the Clutch done with goodwill or no goodwill, I know the dealer has said it is the Tranny. Just remember you have two businesses that want your money and unfortunately internet diagnosis can be just as 'questionable'.

ASH8

BTW...I very much doubt the Mazda Dealer will honor "goodwill" if the task is done somewhere else.

Tyler2191

Thanks a lot guys. You're keeping my optimism high that I won't need a new transmission. I can't believe I'm saying that I'm looking forward to pay $1,000 for a new clutch, but that's much better than paying the $3,200 Mazda is going to charge me for a new trans.

My plan now it to have it taken to a transmission place down the road from where I live. Only about 5 miles from the initial transmission shop I had the car taken to. I want to get a 3rd opinion on it. I'm going to call Mazda today to inform them that I'll be having the car towed from their facility back to my house.

I'll keep you posted with any updates I hear from this third shop.

Tyler2191

Charles, the clutch was an OEM replacement. In fact the original transmission shop said they'd be able to get a Exedy clutch and install it for $1,070. I was told that's a good clutch. I have no idea if that's true or not.

Tyler2191

ASH8 I also doubt they'll honor the good will warranty as well. Right now I'm just hoping it is the clutch and not the transmission. At this point I'd gladly pay $1,000 to get my car right again. I would like to bring up a claim with Mazda when it's all said and done however. I know I won't get my money back, but I'd like them to know I'm not happy and that this dealership in a bit crooked. If nothing else, just so I can vent a bit about my displeasure over this entire scenario.

Karack

from how it sounds to me they have quoted him for a transmission. will they still do diagnostics beyond this point? who knows, the goodwill mention was if it stays at the dealer as we both know they won't honor it anywhere else. but is a $3k transmission worth getting a $500 free clutch? that was my aim.

to diagnose the transmission it has to come out and be torn apart, any other diagnostics are done by driving it and seeing how it responds to various inputs(if it can be driven, obviously not in this case). maybe i missed any part where they quoted him any labor to remove and diagnose the transmission versus just swap in a new one and call it a day.

i also notice a trend to simply swap parts these days versus do actual diagnosis, but perhaps i could be completely wrong.

at any rate, the transmission has to come out. since they quoted him a transmission it would look bad on their part if it comes down to being a simple part in the clutch causing it all. some people go for this as it makes them appear to be heroes, to others it makes them appear incompetent. we could be missing the whole story, perhaps it was just mentioned that the transmission MAY need to be replaced and will cost X amount, but to pull the transmission and inspect everything it will cost a minimum of X amount giving the spread of best case to worst case.

i'm still betting it's the clutch but either way the same amount of work needs to be done to start the process of diagnosing the root cause. draining the oil out of the transmission will give a good idea if the transmission is in fact salvageable or not, if the clutch checks out.