The Time Has Come (Building From Bottom Up)
07-01-2013, 10:43 AM
#252
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It all depends on the car, engine and tune.
First, there are many different brands of n2o systems. One thing I learned, never go off of around this much hp shot. There are more systems that go off of whp with a dyno. So if you have a 100 shot that means you should be getting 100 whp. That is around a .052 n2o jet. .048 n2o jet was a 100 shot on my 11.1 2.5 build. If you say you have a 55 shot but really getting 35-45whp, means you only have a 35-45 shot.
Timing is only needed when the ecu can not adjust any farther. Most ecu's will have a tolerance of -20* to 20*. Thats why I love the live data logging. You will see what timing is, at what rpm, under what load. Then you have to take into consideration of the colder plugs and gap. Thinking about using the FD plugs for gaping.
I am most likely going with a full N2O set up. I feel I would gain better results with it being more reliable over a turbo set up on this engine. Heat is the main factor and don't understand why people would want to add more.
It is ok to spray at any rpm at wot. It all depends on your setup. The main problem is pooling at low rpm. Hard for any engine to suck in that fast 1000 psi of gas being sprayed in at low rpm. That's why they have nozzles that atomize the gas better and have stages of n2o. Having stages of n2o is more for traction. Of course your going to run into problems spraying in 5th at 40mph. All you need is free flowing rpm. If it revs fast from a dig you will be ok. If you have a long first gear and takes longer for the rpm to get up there, you might run into pooling. I have sprayed a 100 shot from a dig many times, even done it at the track. The problem was always traction.
It is 99% the user's fault for problems from n2o. Especially with FI engines. Seeing people point the nozzle at a 90* bent. Not having the nozzle 100% secured. Using the stock fuel pump to the max. Not having a purge. Using a button instead of a WOT safety switch. Not monitoring the AFR and EGT. It is always user error.
First, there are many different brands of n2o systems. One thing I learned, never go off of around this much hp shot. There are more systems that go off of whp with a dyno. So if you have a 100 shot that means you should be getting 100 whp. That is around a .052 n2o jet. .048 n2o jet was a 100 shot on my 11.1 2.5 build. If you say you have a 55 shot but really getting 35-45whp, means you only have a 35-45 shot.
Timing is only needed when the ecu can not adjust any farther. Most ecu's will have a tolerance of -20* to 20*. Thats why I love the live data logging. You will see what timing is, at what rpm, under what load. Then you have to take into consideration of the colder plugs and gap. Thinking about using the FD plugs for gaping.
I am most likely going with a full N2O set up. I feel I would gain better results with it being more reliable over a turbo set up on this engine. Heat is the main factor and don't understand why people would want to add more.
It is ok to spray at any rpm at wot. It all depends on your setup. The main problem is pooling at low rpm. Hard for any engine to suck in that fast 1000 psi of gas being sprayed in at low rpm. That's why they have nozzles that atomize the gas better and have stages of n2o. Having stages of n2o is more for traction. Of course your going to run into problems spraying in 5th at 40mph. All you need is free flowing rpm. If it revs fast from a dig you will be ok. If you have a long first gear and takes longer for the rpm to get up there, you might run into pooling. I have sprayed a 100 shot from a dig many times, even done it at the track. The problem was always traction.
It is 99% the user's fault for problems from n2o. Especially with FI engines. Seeing people point the nozzle at a 90* bent. Not having the nozzle 100% secured. Using the stock fuel pump to the max. Not having a purge. Using a button instead of a WOT safety switch. Not monitoring the AFR and EGT. It is always user error.
charles r hill is the man when it comes to n02 on a renny and i think he installed wcs kit. i followed that build along with advice from him personaly and info/help from 9krpm. thanks again guys.
i thought at some point wcs did retard some timing.
07-01-2013, 10:51 AM
#254
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ive been running a zex kit for years and half of it was before i got a cobb+tuned
07-01-2013, 10:54 AM
#256
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ok sry, i was confused
07-01-2013, 11:54 AM
#257
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I was talking about n2o only here.
I would try it on a piston motor but not on my first rotary build. A lot more would be needed to even have that kind of setup with this engine. Even on the low end of 10 psi and a 50 shot would kill this engine.
It is something I always wanted to do but its not piratical for this engine. Maybe it will happen with my next project.
07-01-2013, 10:38 PM
#258
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Yes I will be adjusting timing. I haven't researched into what to use yet. Would like to have live data and adjust the map on the street like I have in the past. But we will see when that road comes.
I'm not going to give a set shot that I'm aiming for. It's what the engine feels safe with. No I dont feel you could net that much power with out the n2o. I mean, you probably could with very deep pockets.
Yes I do feel N2O would benefit a turbo setup more then anything else that yields the same power out come. No I don't feel you could get the same affects with out it.
Remember, you are adding another power adder and not just supporting one. This is not even close compared to how Meth is used.
I'm not going to give a set shot that I'm aiming for. It's what the engine feels safe with. No I dont feel you could net that much power with out the n2o. I mean, you probably could with very deep pockets.
Yes I do feel N2O would benefit a turbo setup more then anything else that yields the same power out come. No I don't feel you could get the same affects with out it.
Remember, you are adding another power adder and not just supporting one. This is not even close compared to how Meth is used.
The only engine management that could utilize proper triggers for timing reduction would be a stand-alone unit. Perfectly possible to accomplish but much more expense, more complexity, more room for mistakes resulting in a big boom.
Don't get me wrong, nitrous provides a lot of awesome benefits that FI does not. It is cheap compared to the results it produces and the overall setup/install is pretty straight forward provided you don't make mistakes on the fuel side and burn the car to the ground. BHR offers a couple nice parts to help such as a fuel line adapter and a nice throttle body spacer for nozzles.
Anything under a 75 shot you don't need to adjust timing, doing so will result in poor performance when not spraying IE 95% of the time you are driving.
The HP gains from a 55 shot is approximately 35-45WHP, do you know of any N/A mods that can pick up that slack?
NO2 and FI tuning would be a nightmare and not worth the risk, a proper FI is already pushing the limits of the internals, slap up 10 pounds of boost and then start spraying and let me know how long your seals last. Also it is never recommended to spray under 4K RPM, the point of NO2 would be to spray before spool to compensate lag, this point is rendered mute since spraying under 4K can be unstable due to our intake design.
The HP gains from a 55 shot is approximately 35-45WHP, do you know of any N/A mods that can pick up that slack?
NO2 and FI tuning would be a nightmare and not worth the risk, a proper FI is already pushing the limits of the internals, slap up 10 pounds of boost and then start spraying and let me know how long your seals last. Also it is never recommended to spray under 4K RPM, the point of NO2 would be to spray before spool to compensate lag, this point is rendered mute since spraying under 4K can be unstable due to our intake design.
The aspect of spraying nitrous to spool up a turbo isn't done on our cars. You need a MASSIVE turbo to justify this use and any setup on an RX8 requiring this simply shows the builder's inability to properly fit the turbo to the engine.
In the end, it comes down to the goals of your build and what you want out of the car. Without the ability to adjust timing on the fly, nitrous provides only a modest increase over the engine's capability. If you're building a drag racing car, this is a great way to go. If you're building a street car dyno queen, this is a great way to go. If you want a track/street car with better drivability, then FI will make you much much happier.
The engine build aspects can happen independent of everything else, but I would seriously consider your method of engine management prior to making any final decisions on power adders.
07-02-2013, 09:47 AM
#260
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As do we all.
I only know what I researched and experienced. Gone through only a few hundred pounds of N2O. I will learn more with a few hundred pounds more.
Thats why I said it depends on the car, engine and tune. I have no clue what the 8 is like. I got it with a busted up engine and drove it around the block. Never even got to see what it does from a dig 
. Sad I know.
In time I will update with what I feel is safe at what rpm. Its the same thing people were saying about my other Mazda. Boy did I prove them wrong. But with the 8, it just might not like it.
Live tuning is not a must but would be nice to have. A stand alone is something I'm going to stay away from. To much of a hassle for me.
My guess (I'm assuming here) is that CODD lets you run a base map. Have data logging and make a base map off of that data? I have done this with a eprom chip. Have one screen show the data and another screen with the software for the map. I made many different maps to achieve what I wanted. I hope CODD is the same way with out the eprom.
I only know what I researched and experienced. Gone through only a few hundred pounds of N2O. I will learn more with a few hundred pounds more.
i dont agree with all of this but some i do. mostly the part about spraying at any rpm. its unwise to spray below 4200-4500rpm, ask easy1e.
charles r hill is the man when it comes to n02 on a renny and i think he installed wcs kit. i followed that build along with advice from him personaly and info/help from 9krpm. thanks again guys.
i thought at some point wcs did retard some timing.
charles r hill is the man when it comes to n02 on a renny and i think he installed wcs kit. i followed that build along with advice from him personaly and info/help from 9krpm. thanks again guys.
i thought at some point wcs did retard some timing.
. Sad I know. In time I will update with what I feel is safe at what rpm. Its the same thing people were saying about my other Mazda. Boy did I prove them wrong. But with the 8, it just might not like it.
I can cut to the chase and tell you that there are no real viable "live" tuning options available for the car. If my opinion is worth anything (having tuned FI RX8's including nitrous) is you should investigate your engine management setup before even purchasing any FI parts and go from there. Currently, there are no aftermarket ignition adjustment modules or add-ons that would supplement a larger nitrous shot. This leaves only engine management as the device which would adjust your timing.
The only engine management that could utilize proper triggers for timing reduction would be a stand-alone unit. Perfectly possible to accomplish but much more expense, more complexity, more room for mistakes resulting in a big boom.
Don't get me wrong, nitrous provides a lot of awesome benefits that FI does not. It is cheap compared to the results it produces and the overall setup/install is pretty straight forward provided you don't make mistakes on the fuel side and burn the car to the ground. BHR offers a couple nice parts to help such as a fuel line adapter and a nice throttle body spacer for nozzles.
The only engine management that could utilize proper triggers for timing reduction would be a stand-alone unit. Perfectly possible to accomplish but much more expense, more complexity, more room for mistakes resulting in a big boom.
Don't get me wrong, nitrous provides a lot of awesome benefits that FI does not. It is cheap compared to the results it produces and the overall setup/install is pretty straight forward provided you don't make mistakes on the fuel side and burn the car to the ground. BHR offers a couple nice parts to help such as a fuel line adapter and a nice throttle body spacer for nozzles.
Live tuning is not a must but would be nice to have. A stand alone is something I'm going to stay away from. To much of a hassle for me.
My guess (I'm assuming here) is that CODD lets you run a base map. Have data logging and make a base map off of that data? I have done this with a eprom chip. Have one screen show the data and another screen with the software for the map. I made many different maps to achieve what I wanted. I hope CODD is the same way with out the eprom.
07-02-2013, 09:52 AM
#261
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jay i think you mean cobb access port. yes thats how its done. you log on the base map than mod the tune through their software and load new map.
shelldude has been tuning with adaptronic and likes it a lot. hes turboed and he was tuning his car while driving to dgrr. lol
shelldude has been tuning with adaptronic and likes it a lot. hes turboed and he was tuning his car while driving to dgrr. lol
07-02-2013, 10:36 AM
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jay i think you mean cobb access port. yes thats how its done. you log on the base map than mod the tune through their software and load new map.
shelldude has been tuning with adaptronic and likes it a lot. hes turboed and he was tuning his car while driving to dgrr. lol
shelldude has been tuning with adaptronic and likes it a lot. hes turboed and he was tuning his car while driving to dgrr. lol
This is good. It will be easier then what I have done in the past. The eprom was always a pita. Popping chips in and out.
To the people that were wondering how I'm going to mount the side plate to the engine stand, this is how.
2 head bolts from my last mazda and 2 sockets lol. 1 bolt that is for that plate. Took about 5 minutes to figure out and its not going anywhere.
Last edited by jayrerickson; 07-02-2013 at 10:47 AM.
08-06-2013, 04:24 PM
#263
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Hey guys,
I'm in the process on figuring out a return line with a AFPR.
I'm seeing these high flow rails. Says it fits 10.5mm to 11mm injectors.
What is the stock injector size in mm? I cant find it anywere.
The only other rail I found was OBX, they dont say the size so I am assuming it fits stock.
Everything will be ran with -6an.
I'm in the process on figuring out a return line with a AFPR.
I'm seeing these high flow rails. Says it fits 10.5mm to 11mm injectors.
What is the stock injector size in mm? I cant find it anywere.
The only other rail I found was OBX, they dont say the size so I am assuming it fits stock.
Everything will be ran with -6an.
08-06-2013, 04:55 PM
#264
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KG parts sells a rail, the OBX is the only other rail I know of. The stock injectors are denso, I have no clue on the size. A return style fuel setup is not so easy, search for the topic here, it has been done successfully but it's expensive.
08-06-2013, 06:14 PM
#266
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Ill check out the KG rail. Its weird some rails give a size and some dont but none say it will fit stock injectors.
Reason I ask what the stock injector size is...
08-06-2013, 09:49 PM
#267
This was on my build list, but after a lot of research I deemed the OE fuel system is more than adequate for any NA engine and a pump and injector upgrade is all that's needed for FI applications. The cost are high and the benefits just are not there.
Invest the money in something else that will actually make a difference.
Invest the money in something else that will actually make a difference.
08-11-2013, 07:14 PM
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Hey guys,
I been buying parts for the build and still need housings. I was going to do the Cermet coating but cant find a place to do it.
So I'm just going to buy new housings, What is the cheapest place to buy them from?
I been buying parts for the build and still need housings. I was going to do the Cermet coating but cant find a place to do it.
So I'm just going to buy new housings, What is the cheapest place to buy them from?
08-13-2013, 11:04 AM
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Here are some pics of parts I have gotten.
6 puk 6 spring clutch kit.
Longer oil pan bolts
Front and rear links.
10ft of 4g wire for batt relocation.
New black lugs, only had 4 on each side.
Waiting on, in the mail. Will take pics once they come.
New, used front rotor. Look through the thread and you will see what the old one looks like.
Stainless Preformance header. Does anyone know where to buy a block off plate?
Thats it for now. Next will be the housings. If I cant find a place to Cermet coat them in 1 week, I will buy new ones. Wish I could get the coating though.
6 puk 6 spring clutch kit.
Longer oil pan bolts
Front and rear links.
10ft of 4g wire for batt relocation.
New black lugs, only had 4 on each side.
Waiting on, in the mail. Will take pics once they come.
New, used front rotor. Look through the thread and you will see what the old one looks like.
Stainless Preformance header. Does anyone know where to buy a block off plate?
Thats it for now. Next will be the housings. If I cant find a place to Cermet coat them in 1 week, I will buy new ones. Wish I could get the coating though.
08-13-2013, 11:08 AM
#272
08-13-2013, 01:08 PM
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The bolts are not that much longer. I'm going to be using a cork style gasket which is kinda thick. Wanted to make sure I have more then a thread or two holding it up. It was cheap enough to give it a try.
Most of the random parts are parts that I need before the engine goes in anyways. Next I'm going to buy parts for the return system (with connections for N2O), Replace oil lines with AN lines. Found a 5 rib pulley set I wanted to get. I decided to take out the A/C so I need to figure that out too.
I like to have everything I need and then put it all together. But as for the short block, the housings are holding me back. I really want to try that coating.
I'm not that stupid. If they dont fit, they dont fit. I'm not going to force fit them.