How to make your Renesis turbo or SC engine last
12-03-2009, 10:41 PM
#28
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
All good points. I can see where Brettus is coming from but it boils down to time and money. Personally I would like to see someone slap in a built 09 motor as a starting point for FI. Yes I know the swap would be difficult but it will be done eventually. In my previous life many doubted a K series would be an easy swap in 92-95 EG hatch and now they are a dime a dozen.
12-03-2009, 10:49 PM
#30
You don't need an '09, those changes address issues not relative to unmodified OE constraints, not wholesale changes like this
there are more important things to address if you know what they are ...
there are more important things to address if you know what they are ...
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-03-2009 at 10:53 PM.
12-03-2009, 11:07 PM
#33
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yes, as opposed to what else? Is that your way of insinuating that I don't have any on hands experience building motors? We all know you have tons of experience replacing motors Team and that you are an autox god,
but do you care to actually contribute or state your opinion? Your pretty good at posting random smart *** remarks. It seems you don't like a lot of what you read on this site so why bother posting if it just negative? But it's okay, it is entertaining 
12-03-2009, 11:56 PM
#35
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
That is true about the SC belt from what I have seen. Have there been any rebuild pics of turboed motors (searching now)? What do you use to tune Brettus? I am using the SOHN and premixing the fuel.
12-04-2009, 12:14 AM
#37
hmmmm - how is this for irony
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33
and mysql's reply
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34
+ this
What we found was very little wear on anything. Nothing was wrong with the internals besides the crack on the front iron. I can easily see this same engine going well over 100k miles with FI without having issues. I base this on just what Charles has said and what I saw, hopefully when Charles gets a chance, he can chime in with his thoughts on it.
.
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33
and mysql's reply
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34
+ this
What we found was very little wear on anything. Nothing was wrong with the internals besides the crack on the front iron. I can easily see this same engine going well over 100k miles with FI without having issues. I base this on just what Charles has said and what I saw, hopefully when Charles gets a chance, he can chime in with his thoughts on it.
.
Last edited by Brettus; 12-04-2009 at 12:21 AM.
12-04-2009, 12:14 AM
#38
Life begins @ 30 psi
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The same things cause detonation on a FI Renesis that cause detonation with any other engine; tuning and failed subsystems chief among them. If the tune is spot on and all the subsystems are working great, you aren't going to have problems, but some of the "bandaids" are useful because they help out when things aren't great. Methanol injection is a great "bandaid" in that regard. Building a tougher motor helps a bit too, and proper maintenance, but its not going to be foolproof period.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed.
12-04-2009, 12:24 AM
#39
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
hmmmm - how is this for irony
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33
and mysql's reply
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34
+ this
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=33
and mysql's reply
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=34
+ this
The same things cause detonation on a FI Renesis that cause detonation with any other engine; tuning and failed subsystems chief among them. If the tune is spot on and all the subsystems are working great, you aren't going to have problems, but some of the "bandaids" are useful because they help out when things aren't great. Methanol injection is a great "bandaid" in that regard. Building a tougher motor helps a bit too, and proper maintenance, but its not going to be foolproof period.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed.
Besides upgrading the elements of the motor we've discussed, premixing, and alky injection I don't think there is a magical thing that solves all the worries about grenading a boosted rotary. Look at how many 13B-REWs got/get destroyed.
Very true and with time more solutions will come.
12-04-2009, 03:09 AM
#41
the advantage of premix done right, is the oil is everywhere.. not just where the nozzles direct / drip it..
oil is good.
btw, bret last track weekend. made all sessions. ran the car down to 1/3 tank. no fuel pump issues! it was a good weekend.
beers
oil is good.
btw, bret last track weekend. made all sessions. ran the car down to 1/3 tank. no fuel pump issues! it was a good weekend.
beers
Last edited by swoope; 12-04-2009 at 04:13 AM.
12-04-2009, 07:25 AM
#44
Mazda doesn't intend for anyone to pre-mix
I don't know any top Renesis engine builders jumping to 09 or even recommending
which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will run $6000 -$7000 USD and short of you having a tuning or supporting part malfunction will last a long time
the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still
I don't know any top Renesis engine builders jumping to 09 or even recommending
which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will run $6000 -$7000 USD and short of you having a tuning or supporting part malfunction will last a long time
the key is figuring out who's real and who wants you to think they're real. IMO there are only two, maybe three, "real" Renesis race engine experts in the USA. Since you're down under the choices are likely slimmer still
12-04-2009, 08:10 AM
#45
Original Turbo 'd Auto !!
.....which is my real implication; stop futzing around trying to do this low cost on your own and align yourself with a top Renesis expert, who will also likely be heavily experienced with rotary engines in general. Otherwise you're chasing your own tail trying to figure out what they already experienced firsthand many times over. If you play your cards right, which means listening and asking the right questions - most importantly not coming here and blabbing all their wisdom and knowledge publicly - you'll learn and understand more yourself than 99.9% of the intrawebz wannabe debate experts here. An expertly built engine for your application will .....
.
.
Rick Engman, Jim Mederer and Iannetti and Then Team.
Amemiya-san I think would be the closest to Down-Under. Hell what do I know anyway..
12-04-2009, 10:31 AM
#46
If I were you I would:
1. Upgrade water pump and thermostat to mazmart water pump and cooler thermostat
2. Radiator if you live in hot climate
3. Use thicker oil like 20W50. I use Amsoil 20W50 syn in mine.
4. Get meth injection.
5. Tune engine AFR anywhere from 10.5 to 11.5 with meth. Keep eyes on level of meth in bottle before you get into boost. A good tune is probably most important.
6. Upgrade to better apex seal. I have Esmeril apex seals on mine.
7 Larger oil pan
8. Don't drive car hard until it is up to operating temp
9. Don't drive car hard if it too warm outside
10. Change oil on a regular basic. I change mine every 2500 miles.
11. If you track your car, it probably normal that the engine will worn out more than daily driving or weekend driving car. There is no way around it.
12. Keep rpm lower t han 8000 rpm. With turbo, I think there is no need to rev that high which will help with not over heating the engine.
13. Keep car maintain well at all time
14. Don't use no brand name gas. Use the best quality gas you can get.
15. Use good quality coolant
16. Give car enough time to cool before shutting it down
17. Choose turbo size that sufficient for the engine for longer lasting turbo
18. Keep eyes on gauges. If something look funny or not right, stay off boost and get it fix immediately
19. Use good quailty premix and sufficient amount also. If you have 09 I don't know you need premix.
20. Replace spark plugs on a regular basis and use the right plugs
21. Lastly, think before you floor that gas pedal.
It just my thoughts. So far my car has been running good but I only have 5000 miles or so on the turbo. So only time will tell.
1. Upgrade water pump and thermostat to mazmart water pump and cooler thermostat
2. Radiator if you live in hot climate
3. Use thicker oil like 20W50. I use Amsoil 20W50 syn in mine.
4. Get meth injection.
5. Tune engine AFR anywhere from 10.5 to 11.5 with meth. Keep eyes on level of meth in bottle before you get into boost. A good tune is probably most important.
6. Upgrade to better apex seal. I have Esmeril apex seals on mine.
7 Larger oil pan
8. Don't drive car hard until it is up to operating temp
9. Don't drive car hard if it too warm outside
10. Change oil on a regular basic. I change mine every 2500 miles.
11. If you track your car, it probably normal that the engine will worn out more than daily driving or weekend driving car. There is no way around it.
12. Keep rpm lower t han 8000 rpm. With turbo, I think there is no need to rev that high which will help with not over heating the engine.
13. Keep car maintain well at all time
14. Don't use no brand name gas. Use the best quality gas you can get.
15. Use good quality coolant
16. Give car enough time to cool before shutting it down
17. Choose turbo size that sufficient for the engine for longer lasting turbo
18. Keep eyes on gauges. If something look funny or not right, stay off boost and get it fix immediately
19. Use good quailty premix and sufficient amount also. If you have 09 I don't know you need premix.
20. Replace spark plugs on a regular basis and use the right plugs
21. Lastly, think before you floor that gas pedal.
It just my thoughts. So far my car has been running good but I only have 5000 miles or so on the turbo. So only time will tell.
12-04-2009, 11:09 AM
#47
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
News flash readers digest version:
I spoke with Daryl Drummond at length today. Daryl has been involved in Mazda engines for Mazda in various racing applications over the past 30 years. He specializes in race engines, has more Mazda racing championships as an engine builder then probably anyone else in the states (or close to it). Basically he is a very, very, very credible source. He continues to build and support commerical and professional rotary appications, builds several road racing motors, specializes in custom intakes using fuel injection and validates everyone on his engine dyno. Our Renesis engine dyno chart to follow in another post for reference. Neat stuff. I digress.
Daryl did some Mazda supported race team R&D many years ago when his rotary powered off-road motors would see one race before needing rebuilds. 9,200 rpm (and we are NOT talking Renesis here) would cause excessive heat and this would lead to bearing failure. Heat led to bearing failure. Bearing failure led to engine failure. Engine failure = DNF. DNF not good.
So an investigation was performed and it was determined that the entire oiling system was restrictive particularly the path from the rear to the front of the motor. The stock pumps are capable of 8 gal/min flow yet the internal restrictions of the oil path and gallies do not allow proper lubrication and cooling. Cooling was the issue as it melted part of the bearing. This was resolved by enlarging the oil passages (an aftermarket mod he does to his race engines and I beleive others do but can not confirm this) and stepping up the oil pressure reg (mentioned several times in this thread). He offered that many years ago he measured 90 psi at the rear @ 8,500 rpm and 60 at front same rpm with the stock 13 oil pump.
Fast forward. The Mazda dry sump has a 12 gal/min flow rate. Modifications to the pump allow for 15 gal flow combined with opening up the galleys has solved this issue. He does this on our Renny race engines and those built for Pro Formula Mazda (spec engine with Motec engine mngt.). Note: This series is running the new 09 motors and currently a hard cut of 8,700 rpm I beleive. 04-08 motors had a 8,500 rpm limiter (so i tell everyone once again---don't drive your dumb engines at 9,000 thinking there is good power there----there is not).
Summary: It appears there has been a long history of oil flow issues with the 13b. Heat reduction, increased flow and higher psi all help to solve this.
Daryl offers this oil modification service along with an extensive balancing of components. His other offerings are beyond a typical street car owner and/or above the budget most of this forum wants to spend on their engines.
One other thing: Heat can be generated in the combustion chamber by inadequate tuning. Combine this with high rpms and less than adequate cooling and the probability of bearing failure is increased.
It would be interesting to see what conservative tuning, improved water cooling, improved oil cooling and increased oil pressures would do to an engine subjected to many, many hours and miles of operation.
I guess it all comes back to "how much do I want to invest in my engine to avoid potential bearing failures"?
Happy rotoring
Renesis Engine dyno (flywheel hp): http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black
Mazda Dry sump: http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black
daryl@drummondengines.com
I spoke with Daryl Drummond at length today. Daryl has been involved in Mazda engines for Mazda in various racing applications over the past 30 years. He specializes in race engines, has more Mazda racing championships as an engine builder then probably anyone else in the states (or close to it). Basically he is a very, very, very credible source. He continues to build and support commerical and professional rotary appications, builds several road racing motors, specializes in custom intakes using fuel injection and validates everyone on his engine dyno. Our Renesis engine dyno chart to follow in another post for reference. Neat stuff. I digress.
Daryl did some Mazda supported race team R&D many years ago when his rotary powered off-road motors would see one race before needing rebuilds. 9,200 rpm (and we are NOT talking Renesis here) would cause excessive heat and this would lead to bearing failure. Heat led to bearing failure. Bearing failure led to engine failure. Engine failure = DNF. DNF not good.
So an investigation was performed and it was determined that the entire oiling system was restrictive particularly the path from the rear to the front of the motor. The stock pumps are capable of 8 gal/min flow yet the internal restrictions of the oil path and gallies do not allow proper lubrication and cooling. Cooling was the issue as it melted part of the bearing. This was resolved by enlarging the oil passages (an aftermarket mod he does to his race engines and I beleive others do but can not confirm this) and stepping up the oil pressure reg (mentioned several times in this thread). He offered that many years ago he measured 90 psi at the rear @ 8,500 rpm and 60 at front same rpm with the stock 13 oil pump.
Fast forward. The Mazda dry sump has a 12 gal/min flow rate. Modifications to the pump allow for 15 gal flow combined with opening up the galleys has solved this issue. He does this on our Renny race engines and those built for Pro Formula Mazda (spec engine with Motec engine mngt.). Note: This series is running the new 09 motors and currently a hard cut of 8,700 rpm I beleive. 04-08 motors had a 8,500 rpm limiter (so i tell everyone once again---don't drive your dumb engines at 9,000 thinking there is good power there----there is not).
Summary: It appears there has been a long history of oil flow issues with the 13b. Heat reduction, increased flow and higher psi all help to solve this.
Daryl offers this oil modification service along with an extensive balancing of components. His other offerings are beyond a typical street car owner and/or above the budget most of this forum wants to spend on their engines.
One other thing: Heat can be generated in the combustion chamber by inadequate tuning. Combine this with high rpms and less than adequate cooling and the probability of bearing failure is increased.
It would be interesting to see what conservative tuning, improved water cooling, improved oil cooling and increased oil pressures would do to an engine subjected to many, many hours and miles of operation.
I guess it all comes back to "how much do I want to invest in my engine to avoid potential bearing failures"?
Happy rotoring
Renesis Engine dyno (flywheel hp): http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black
Mazda Dry sump: http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorspor...&bgcolor=black
daryl@drummondengines.com
12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
#48
Life begins @ 30 psi
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The '09 motors are definitely better than the previous motors, but the primary difference is the OMP system which those of us premixing are using in addition, not relying on entirely. Mazda does not intend for people to premix because your average consumer would A) **** it up entirely (how much of this **** am I putting in again?) and B) Refuse to buy a car requiring them to put anything other than gas in it. It doesn't mean that premix is somehow bad, or "out of spec" for rotaries. My car started running SO much better when I started premixing Idemitsu 2-stroke and I also have my OMP on significantly higher than normal (whatever Jeff's setup is). Plenty of lubrication and the car is happy. I also have methanol injection, upgraded ignition, and an open exhaust path. For a non-modified Renesis I don't see how my setup could be improved for reliability. The new motor will have all the goodies as well, but nothing makes the motor foolproof. While I agree with Team that there are only a handful of people who are real experts, none of the things we are discussing in this thread is rocket science or requires an expert opinion. Most of the measures we are discussing are old news to rotary owners and unless you have a magic bullet we don't know about (or the mentioned experts do and they aren't sharing) then I don't see the point in blasting people in this thread.
12-04-2009, 11:35 AM
#49
Its not just a seal that will bend instead of break. Two separate things are being confused here.
First thing: Our seals will not bend under detonation, they will simply not break because they are stronger. They will take it for X amount of time and under lots of boost and you will have a chance to take your foot off the throttle as opposed to the OEM ones which just go at the slightest sign on detonation...even if you react and lift your right foot.
Second: Separately, if your engine is leaned out to excessive levels, with or without detonation, to the point where your EGT's are way to high, the seals will "Sag" or "bend" in the middle as opposed to breaking or getting lodged in the groove which is what happens to OEM ones. This bending happens towards the center of the rotor, as a result of the apex seal spring pressure points, not side to side so it will not affect the groove, and the engine will not suffer damage. It will also not loose compression over time, it will loose compression immediately and you will notice, so you will not be driving around with warped apex seals, you will be able to feel that something is not right. All you will have to do is rebuild the engine with new apex seals but your rotor grooves, housings etc will be fine.
And again, this is at extreme boost pressures(20psi+) and lean conditions, I have yet to see one seal bend/sag or fail...and believe me, I have detonated at way more than 20psi and not just once
. I have also had the worst thing that could happen to an FI guy happen, partial fuel loss...which is worse than just loosing fuel in general because you still have some going in and it leans the engine out horribly.. One of my first pair of bosch fuel pumps pussed out on me (that's how I found out they were knock offs and later started buying them direct from bosch) while I was at 22psi with the PT71mm turbo and nothing broke...I saw 15.7 on the AFR meter and the engine sputtered before I took my foot off the gas...nothing was damaged.Hope this clears up any questions.
Chris
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
#50
My post was not in reference to your seals but in seal selection in general and where one places the emphasis. One could put magic seals in the car that never bend, break, sag, or wear and detonating the engine is still going to eventually cause problems. You've just moved the weakest link to somewhere else. Surely increasing the strength of the current weakest link is a plus but avoiding detonation in the first place would certainly be superior.