Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Firstly , I am not claiming I know the secret to this - I just thought it worthwhile discussing as I'm getting my engine rebuilt right now and would like to make this one last.
Here are some things that I have done and will do to get the best life I can from my next rebuild :

* Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards .
* Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin .
*Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings
*Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying .
*Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below
*Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator
*5w40 synthetic oil
*stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection .


criticisms and suggestions welcome .

Turblown

Easiest thing to do is run water/alcohol injection. I recently did a pull @ 16psi with a 15.5 AFR! Engine didn't explode.. I know for a fact it would have without the water/alcohol on...

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

Live and learn, thx for taking them for the team.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

so you think this would save an engine that ran out of gas under boost - for example ?

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

oh crap Brettus, what happened?

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

He spit out a molten piece of his housing out of the tail pipe .. or something to that effect!

bse50

I would say just keep it general. Somebody could chime in and say that X apex seals are better than Y. so "upgraded" or "ceramic" or "stone" seals would be a best way of talking about it, don't you think?
Anyway upgraded apex seals are fine.
Dowel pinning as got pros and cons, like pretty much everything in life but can be considered.
Those things have to be done to a new engine though so here's my list for an already installed engine:
Improved cooling systems for oil and water circuits.
Good intercooler to keep the intake temps low
Water meth if you want to run high boost\high power setups
premix
Adeguate fuel pump and...
TUNING! possibly the most important thing when coupled with a rock solid turbo system. Here we're dealing with wearing issues.. if your kit is badly designed there's nothing you can do to prevent problems

Do you like my list?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

what alzorz said - only engine was munted when we took it apart

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

brettus, why reduce OMP output? I have no qualms with the premix but an adapter running 2 stroke through the OMP at INCREASED rates seems a much better idea to me... increased protection, and less combustion deposits... win-win.

(plus depending on your position on different oils, since you no longer have to concern about combustion by-products you are free to use ANY oil you like in the pan, this means some very good ones that many consider taboo for rotaries because of their properties under combustion)

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I reduce output and retain the omp system more as a backup than the primary lubrication system .
I believe that premixing is the best lubrication system - better than running the sohn adapter and better than using sump oil at elevated use rates .
My engine is pristine from a lubrication point of view - just munted mechanically . So I know what I'm doing is working .

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Just wondering, what is your reasoning behind premixing heavy being better than the SOHN? I do both but I just think straight 2 stroke injected is better than a decent premix diluted in gas. Thanks in advance.

bse50

The sohn adapter has got the same limitations of the stock oiling system except the fact that you can use 2 stroke oil directly. 2 nozzles only and the center of the seal remains just slightly covered (or let's say uncovered...)
Premixing is a good thing to do but i wouldn't turn the omp values down anyway, it must be a matter of preference anyway because brettus will probably be using higher premix values than me (i use 200\250gr per tank).

Phil's 8

iTrader: (3)

* Esmeril racing Apex seals - supposed to deform rather than break . Believe me you don't want your seals to break . You may get away with just losing a housing if you are lucky but lunching half the motor is quite on the cards .
* Dowell pin motor -to prevent cracking of front iron around dowell pin .
*Run premix at 200:1 along with omp at 1/2 factory settings
*Slight increase of side exhaust port size - to take some flow away from centre siamese port (I melted the divider) . This is just an idea i'm trying .
*Conservative tune 11.5afrs or below
*Upgrade cooling system - extra radiator
*5w40 synthetic oil
*stay within efficiency range of turbo - 333whp was nice but my turbo is really only good for 300 under sustained boost without meth injection .

Why reduce OMP? should we not increase it? (I see Paul has already questioned it)
I agree on the exhaust port size.
Yep a must on the upgrade of the cooling system - a second rad. would be nice. I tried it earlier but it did not help. Am trying a system from Pettit now but hell I have to wait for the air temp to get up there before I can comment.
In the summer I use 10w50 in the desert heat and I know it helps on the over heating. Can't prove improved lubrication but when Ray broke open my engine it looked good.
stay away from the turbo (I am just joking here - could not pass it up)
Water/ alcohol injection

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

Are you going to stick to a stock water pump or a Mazmart/other?
Are you planning any changes/improvements from stock on the flow paths through the engine bay (enhanced air mass flow through the cooling systems)?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Yes I agree you should increase it if you are not running premix .

But I am running premix so theoretically I don't even need the omp at all . I just have it there as a backup - incase I run out of premix . Why use 2x as much oil as you need ?
High load values I run at 1/2 whereas low load is more like 3/4 of stock settings so if I run out of premix I can cruise around and not be concerned - I just dont go WOT.

Also : put your hand up if you actually have worn out an engine running FI (rather than mechanically destroyed it ) ..........................Anyone ?

I contend the lubrication thing is not even an issue - breaking apex seals .........................IS



what did you do in this area ?

blackenedwings

As has been mentioned I think one of the key things is water/meth injection. With the high compression of the Renesis it really does help as a safety net for when things inevitably go wrong. Upgraded apex seals, dowels, and porting are all on my list for my new motor but premix, alky injection, and a solid tune are the main things for longevity as I understand it.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Missing critical rebuild item = fail

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

How do you trigger this to be effective while not using too much water/meth ?

I'm thinking a pressure switch set at around 4-5psi would be good ?

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

you are right in that you wont find anyone here who has simply worn one out... but have you not ben paying attention to OD/Mazmarts recent thread? Have you not seen the pictures and paid attention to the many recent(year or so) threads on this subject, there are photo's, docuentation, explanation, and input from from very respected people...

I contend that your approach is fine with the goal of simply not popping a motor. But for the stupidly small comparative cost, I would throw 2stroke and premix at it in much larger volume than you are referring to. I would also seriously be looking to address oil pressure and e-shaft pellets. You dont want your bearings to look like those pictured in the referenced threads after 60K do you?

as far as I see things, the power range that almost everyone here is currently playing in, or even aiming for... breaking seals is not an issue. The failures of this nature I have seen all seem to come from failure of another component. How many people have popped seals that didnt involve poor tuning, catastrophic misfires, overheating, or other component failure? There is no history of people popping motors simply from pushing too much air through them. Now I do NOT think your ideas and approach are bad. But i think the things you are passing up are things that should be addressed even at stock power levels.

The way I see it(and this is one of the MANY reasons I sold the FI pile 'o stuff I had, I wasnt ready), 1st step is to bring the drivetrain to where it needs to be in the first place, and allowing for anything that may change with added power levels. THEN play with power, and even more so - before adding safety nets to the drawing board, ensure you have done everything in your power to eliminate potential problems, then finally look at safety nets.

anyway, a recap of my thoughts after i've looked at it a while:

oil pressure
e-shaft pellet
address the horrible OEM side seal clearance


**oh and dont forget the part oil plays in cooling. but be wary what you do, the oil takes so damn long to reach temp already....

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I'm not trying to save money on oil - more to avoid going overboard and carboning up the engine .
I know a few old school rotary racers - the typical premix ratio they run is 150:1 and they use any old cheap premix (and laugh at me for useing expensive stuff).
Useing 200:1 premix + OMP at 1/2 factory is more oil than that - I think it is plenty.

Still on same bearings I started with and they are still serviceable (after 78000 miles )
Don't forget us FI guys have reduced redlines - I really don't see oil pressure as an issue


Breaking seals IS the issue - all those things you listed do happen and will happen even if your systems are up to scratch - some people get lucky , some don't .
I'm not saying you aren't right to say that everything needs to be spot on but - the Renesis is a WEAK motor under detonation and everyone who goes FI needs to realise that it will and does happen to the best of us .

Just ask all the experienced FI people on here how many of them have NOT blown a motor if you think supporting mods will always save you ....

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

if you're trying to avoid carbon, why inject 4stroke at all then? stick straight to premix, or premix and keep the OMP as a safety net - on 2stroke. ash content, deposits. which has more?

very glad to hear, i think that there are many other things at play in what i referrenced such as oil choice, off axis stress from pullies, warm up/driving habits etc.. but i still cant toss out oil pressure

yes, you are correct.

but...what history do we have here.. couplings/clamps come loose, overheating, poor tuning(AFRs/dwell/timing), poor ignition, poor boost control setup, poor wastegate useage/setup(being limited to what everyone is using here). None of this is popping motors from too much boost/flow...

supporting mods won't save you, they are usually a point of failure from what i've seen. the more you add to a system, the more potential failure points it has.

my approach is kinda like this... airbags: they dont solve a problem, they are a bandaid. the problem is the driver, the public road maintenance status, the pedestrian, the vehicle maintenance(think tires) etc etc... but since fixing those things is out of the realm of feasibility(for the system as a whole), airbags are a necessary bandaid to save lives. I simply want people(moreso than you in this case) to ensure the are addressing the problem IF possible rather than adding a bandaid to make the problem, well... less problematic

this is just as much about the approach and thouhgt process as it is directly at you. except for the oil pressure/e-shaft bit and 2stroke.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

hmmm - i'm not sure what approach you are recommending after all that ?


what do you consider a band aid ?

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

So what is your plan? You want to build a motor that you can detonate and will survive? Or a motor/system that has the least chance of detonating. Detonation is generally considered an engine killer for a reason. Even if you use a seal that'll bend instead of break, it's going to severely stress/warp the groove, lose compression over time, and fail.

Oh, and I run right up to 9k rpms so I don't think all FI guys are lowering their redlines.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Obviously 2 stroke is better and having both premix and OMP on premix is the ultimate .
However my setup would be second to that - OMP on 4 stroke but at reduced volume and only operating as a back-up system .
See my logic now ?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Ideally - Both


I see a lowered redline as one very easy thing we can do to increase the life of our FI engines
There is practically nothing to gain in the way of acceleration by reving much past 8000 anyway ....


Agreed - but if you had had to shell out for two new irons a new housing and a new rotor like i have - I think you would see my point .....