Esmeril Turbo Kit Dyno & Review
05-20-2008, 01:21 PM
#52
RotoRocks Powered
Is that accurate? I've been inside a greddy turbo'd rx8 and my car spools just as fast. This turbo is extremely responsive. It's full boost at 5.5k on the dyno cuz he's full throttle starting from 4k. Obviously it can't reach full boost at 4k or earlier if he's getting on it at 4k. We did the pulls in 4th gear where he would shift his way up to 4th gear, let the rpm drop to about 3.5k, lightly throttle, and as it slowly climbs to 4, he records and is on WOT starting @ 4k.
Turn on the log on your int-x with boost logging enabled, do a pull from say 2K rpm to the redline, and then save observe the log? Let's see how far you'll get on boost by 4K? Yeah it will show minimal boost by 2.5k or so, but then what? it shows still just a little more boost by 3, and a little more by 3.5K... and only past 4K it begins to come to life. Meanwhile you are sitting behind the wheel with your foot on the gas pedal, waiting... waiting...
If you read my post, 5.5 K or later is what I said it will produce full boost at. It made 14 psi for me at 6K. But that is 5.5 - 6K! Which is exactly my point.
And in 2nd and 3rd gear, on the street, when you just want to step and zoom through traffic, it feels slow because of it.
Please do not begin comparing this to Greddy. Greddy may be spooling, but it flows jacks squat.
6K? Where do you get this information from?
Our kit spools at anything above 3000rpm. You even get a 1 or 2 psi from below 2500rpm. Remember that the dyno only shows the boost curve from the point the engine was floored. This dyno doesn't even show anything before 4k rpm.
From looking at the AFR graph I can tell you it wasn't floored until around 4200rpm and by 4500rpm it was at full boost(look at the AFR curve, they drop rapidly with boost). Where is the lag?
The fact that you have boost at 2-3-4 or 5k rpm doesn't mean your torque curve will peak there. You can't go solely off the tq curve to determine where the boost came in, it will still be affected by volumetric efficiency throughout the rpm range. You might have full boost at say 3500rpm and that will show on the tq curve but it might still ramp up gradually to where it peaks due to engine efficiency.
Just thought I would clear this up for the rest.
Chris
Our kit spools at anything above 3000rpm. You even get a 1 or 2 psi from below 2500rpm. Remember that the dyno only shows the boost curve from the point the engine was floored. This dyno doesn't even show anything before 4k rpm.
From looking at the AFR graph I can tell you it wasn't floored until around 4200rpm and by 4500rpm it was at full boost(look at the AFR curve, they drop rapidly with boost). Where is the lag?
The fact that you have boost at 2-3-4 or 5k rpm doesn't mean your torque curve will peak there. You can't go solely off the tq curve to determine where the boost came in, it will still be affected by volumetric efficiency throughout the rpm range. You might have full boost at say 3500rpm and that will show on the tq curve but it might still ramp up gradually to where it peaks due to engine efficiency.
Just thought I would clear this up for the rest.
Chris
See for yourself.
Not to mention that even if he is half way to his target boost by 4.5K, or even say 3/4 of the way (7psi) he is way too lean running over 12.5 - 12.7:1 AF! Assuming that the tune is healthy and conservative, i would say he is running more like 3-5 psi at that point. Thus the adequate power output.
Chris,
You don't have to convince me. T70 would be kick *** for using on the track. With it's linear and consistent spool rate... Perfect for high RPM runs on straights and coming out of turns. You made a great kit!
This turbo on the street however, the car feels heavy, slow and unresponsive. And the driver needs to down shift to get the spool going when you want to make a quick pass. That is just a fact.
I am not taking this information out of my *** and just throwing here to make someone look bad. This is the information that is based on my personal observation. I said what I said, because I personally installed, tuned and drove with one for quite a while in the street and highway (and "a while" means a month or so, not a couple of runs), then took it down and replaced with a turbo that has not as large and heavy, yet quite as potent compressor and a smaller turbine that spools 2x as quickly. It makes a world of a difference.
Last edited by rotorocks; 05-20-2008 at 01:58 PM.
05-20-2008, 01:45 PM
#53
Boostin'
You're not comparing apples to apples. You have a rear mount turbo system, its not going to act the same as a conventional setup.
05-20-2008, 01:58 PM
#55
Ok that's easy.
Turn on the log on your int-x with boost logging enabled, do a pull from say 2K rpm to the redline, and then save observe the log? Let's see how far you'll get on boost by 4K? Yeah it will show minimal boost by 2.5k or so, but then what? it shows still just a little more boost by 3, and a little more by 3.5K... and only past 4K it begins to come to life. Meanwhile you are sitting behind the wheel with your foot on the gas pedal, waiting... waiting...
If you read my post, 5.5 K or later is what I said it will produce full boost at. It made 14 psi for me at 6K. But that is 5.5 - 6K! Which is exactly my point.
And in 2nd and 3rd gear, on the street, when you just want to step and zoom through traffic, it feels slow because of it.
Please do not begin comparing this to Greddy. Greddy may be spooling, but it flows jacks squat.
Chris,
You don't have to convince me. T70 would be kick *** for using on the track. With it's linear and consistent spool rate... Perfect for high RPM runs on straights and coming out of turns. You made a great kit!
This turbo on the street however, the car feels heavy, slow and unresponsive. And the driver needs to down shift to get the spool going when you want to make a quick pass. That is just a fact.
I am not taking this information out of my *** and just throwing here to make someone look bad. This is the information that is based on my personal observation. I said what I said, because I personally installed, tuned and drove with one for quite a while in the street and highway (and "a while" means a month or so, not a couple of runs), then took it down and replaced with a turbo that has not as large and heavy, yet quite as potent compressor and a smaller turbine that spools 2x as quickly. It makes a world of a difference.
Turn on the log on your int-x with boost logging enabled, do a pull from say 2K rpm to the redline, and then save observe the log? Let's see how far you'll get on boost by 4K? Yeah it will show minimal boost by 2.5k or so, but then what? it shows still just a little more boost by 3, and a little more by 3.5K... and only past 4K it begins to come to life. Meanwhile you are sitting behind the wheel with your foot on the gas pedal, waiting... waiting...
If you read my post, 5.5 K or later is what I said it will produce full boost at. It made 14 psi for me at 6K. But that is 5.5 - 6K! Which is exactly my point.
And in 2nd and 3rd gear, on the street, when you just want to step and zoom through traffic, it feels slow because of it.
Please do not begin comparing this to Greddy. Greddy may be spooling, but it flows jacks squat.
Chris,
You don't have to convince me. T70 would be kick *** for using on the track. With it's linear and consistent spool rate... Perfect for high RPM runs on straights and coming out of turns. You made a great kit!
This turbo on the street however, the car feels heavy, slow and unresponsive. And the driver needs to down shift to get the spool going when you want to make a quick pass. That is just a fact.
I am not taking this information out of my *** and just throwing here to make someone look bad. This is the information that is based on my personal observation. I said what I said, because I personally installed, tuned and drove with one for quite a while in the street and highway (and "a while" means a month or so, not a couple of runs), then took it down and replaced with a turbo that has not as large and heavy, yet quite as potent compressor and a smaller turbine that spools 2x as quickly. It makes a world of a difference.
Our kit was made with the daily driver in mind, not the racer, for that we would've used a gt42r that had real lag and that would've been a good straight line car where maximum power was all that mattered. I have had the turbo on my car for going on 2 years now, I have some boost from 2500rpm and full boost(at least 12psi) from anything above 3500. I don't think I even remember shifting the car under 3000 when I had it stock, now I have more tq down low than before. The people that have bought our kit can confirm this.
I am not saying your experience with a similar turbo wasn't as you state, I am just saying its not the turbo. It could very well be manifold design due to your manifold being different(runner volume) or longer. Maybe it is due to the long intercooler piping going from halfway under the car to the front that your system has to fill before it creates boost. All these issues have an effect. This is the reason our piping from turbo to intercooler and from intercooler to engine is so direct. The air out of the turbo has to go through less piping and fill way less volume before reaching the engine than other setups.
I agree with you that boosting at 5500rpm(or anything above 4500rpm for that matter) is too laggy for a street driven car. I also agree that you might have had a similar turbo to the one we use. I am just saying that our setups are not identical and therefore conclusions cannot be reached about one setup from looking at another.
Hope u understand what I am saying. No offense is intended.
Thanks.
Chris
05-20-2008, 02:54 PM
#56
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If he used both turbos in the same place you would be comparing apples to apples. If he's comparing a front-mounted turbo to his rear-mounted kit, he's spotting you the pumping losses & reduced enthalpy, which should *favor* the front-mounted kit.
05-20-2008, 02:55 PM
#58
RotoRocks Powered
This might be true in your particular setup but I will still have to disagree with you regarding whats considered big. The turbo we use is of the smallest single turbos to even be considered for rotaries. Our engine has had some changes but it is still a mazda 13b and it behaves as one. Other than the plethora of electronic systems and ignition deficiencies plaguing our engine it is very much equal to an rx7 engine. The rotary community normally will not even consider anything under a turbo of our size(.82 A/R exhaust side on a P-Trim wheel with a 60-70mm compressor) for going single because it wont do the job. It will spool sooner but the air it will pump will not be ideal. You will have to boost way higher to generate the same hp levels as with a bigger more efficient one without considerable spool increase.
Our kit was made with the daily driver in mind, not the racer, for that we would've used a gt42r that had real lag and that would've been a good straight line car where maximum power was all that mattered. I have had the turbo on my car for going on 2 years now, I have some boost from 2500rpm and full boost(at least 12psi) from anything above 3500. I don't think I even remember shifting the car under 3000 when I had it stock, now I have more tq down low than before. The people that have bought our kit can confirm this.
I am not saying your experience with a similar turbo wasn't as you state, I am just saying its not the turbo. It could very well be manifold design due to your manifold being different(runner volume) or longer. Maybe it is due to the long intercooler piping going from halfway under the car to the front that your system has to fill before it creates boost. All these issues have an effect. This is the reason our piping from turbo to intercooler and from intercooler to engine is so direct. The air out of the turbo has to go through less piping and fill way less volume before reaching the engine than other setups.
I agree with you that boosting at 5500rpm(or anything above 4500rpm for that matter) is too laggy for a street driven car. I also agree that you might have had a similar turbo to the one we use. I am just saying that our setups are not identical and therefore conclusions cannot be reached about one setup from looking at another.
Hope u understand what I am saying. No offense is intended.
Thanks.
Chris
Our kit was made with the daily driver in mind, not the racer, for that we would've used a gt42r that had real lag and that would've been a good straight line car where maximum power was all that mattered. I have had the turbo on my car for going on 2 years now, I have some boost from 2500rpm and full boost(at least 12psi) from anything above 3500. I don't think I even remember shifting the car under 3000 when I had it stock, now I have more tq down low than before. The people that have bought our kit can confirm this.
I am not saying your experience with a similar turbo wasn't as you state, I am just saying its not the turbo. It could very well be manifold design due to your manifold being different(runner volume) or longer. Maybe it is due to the long intercooler piping going from halfway under the car to the front that your system has to fill before it creates boost. All these issues have an effect. This is the reason our piping from turbo to intercooler and from intercooler to engine is so direct. The air out of the turbo has to go through less piping and fill way less volume before reaching the engine than other setups.
I agree with you that boosting at 5500rpm(or anything above 4500rpm for that matter) is too laggy for a street driven car. I also agree that you might have had a similar turbo to the one we use. I am just saying that our setups are not identical and therefore conclusions cannot be reached about one setup from looking at another.
Hope u understand what I am saying. No offense is intended.
Thanks.
Chris
But to continue the discussion - On one of the conversations with Staticlag we somewhat compared the impressions of driving with his (yours) and mine (then a T7- powered) systems, and they were quite similar from all the aspects. He also confirmed that, what I say, that lag is/was an issue for him at some point.
Here is his exact words:
"I've found downshifting to cure the problem."
"Yeah I have found that the extra power has made me lazy also, usually I'm in 6th gear at 2-3K rpms and I step on the gas, and LAGGGGGG. All it takes is a quick downshift to 4th or 5th gear to get the juices flowing."
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=304
I edited my response above (previous post), to reflect your point on the dyno chart (which I initially overlooked). Take a look, if you have a sec.
I don't know, man. What you are saying and what I experienced is way too different. MM's upgrade with a ball bearing turbo sitting on the greddy manifold probably will not spool to 12psi right from 3500 rpm. Although I believe it may.
I am not sure mine can do that. I am actually curious to try. i have a very very difficult time to believe this this T70 will, and this dyno made at WOT gives no solid points to your side.
I do have to say, that I have a high flow cat on the car, which may be adding to the after turbo back pressure, and affecting the spool, but just for the fun of this arguments sake, Chris, or someone who has his kit, find a minute, and do a Logged pull with T70 and post the screen shot of it? Shouldn't be a big deal. Don't even need to take it anywhere past 5-6K. It is the 2 - 5K that is being in question.
Log it with injector pulse with, boost, RPM and TPS. That will clear things right up. And I'll shut up for good
Last edited by rotorocks; 05-20-2008 at 03:08 PM.
05-20-2008, 03:06 PM
#59
RotoRocks Powered
A rear mounted turbo will be more laggy and less efficient due to the (1) head loss from pushing the air back & forth thru the long pipes and (2) the gas has more time to cool down = less enthalpy = less kinetic energy to spin the turbine.
If he used both turbos in the same place you would be comparing apples to apples. If he's comparing a front-mounted turbo to his rear-mounted kit, he's spotting you the pumping losses & reduced enthalpy, which should *favor* the front-mounted kit.
If he used both turbos in the same place you would be comparing apples to apples. If he's comparing a front-mounted turbo to his rear-mounted kit, he's spotting you the pumping losses & reduced enthalpy, which should *favor* the front-mounted kit.
05-20-2008, 03:25 PM
#61
Our intercooler piping is about 3.5-4ft total length. Adding 3ft. of pipe length would be almost doubling the volume of air that has to be filled before boost goes up.
I understand that comparing your current turbo to the t70 it seems to have no problems filling the piping quickly but that is not an accurate comparison. Maybe if that turbo where in our manifold with our piping it would spool even quicker because of the same reasons. I know that I have seen at least 10psi at 3500rpm. I don't know how the mm upgrade does, I haven't tested it so I can't speculate on it, it is a different(not better or worst just different) manifold and dnpipe setup as well so it is not comparable either.
Either way, the kit performs and what to some is "laggy" might be quick spooling for others so this seems like a pointless argument since it is all based on personal perception.
What I do know from experience is that the turbo specs are only about 40-50% of the equation that determines where boost buildup or lag. Intercooler+piping volume, engine demand and volumetric efficiency, manifold design and volume, down pipe and exhaust flow and not to mention how many bends exist in each of these components, how abrupt each bend is, how well they are mated and welded are just as important if not more important to the determining boost characteristics of a setup. Any person that knows fluid dynamics will tell you that what you have on the entrance of a pipe or at the exit isn't the only thing that matters, its all about what happens through the pipe that determines flow, pressure, etc.
Chris
I understand that comparing your current turbo to the t70 it seems to have no problems filling the piping quickly but that is not an accurate comparison. Maybe if that turbo where in our manifold with our piping it would spool even quicker because of the same reasons. I know that I have seen at least 10psi at 3500rpm. I don't know how the mm upgrade does, I haven't tested it so I can't speculate on it, it is a different(not better or worst just different) manifold and dnpipe setup as well so it is not comparable either.
Either way, the kit performs and what to some is "laggy" might be quick spooling for others so this seems like a pointless argument since it is all based on personal perception.
What I do know from experience is that the turbo specs are only about 40-50% of the equation that determines where boost buildup or lag. Intercooler+piping volume, engine demand and volumetric efficiency, manifold design and volume, down pipe and exhaust flow and not to mention how many bends exist in each of these components, how abrupt each bend is, how well they are mated and welded are just as important if not more important to the determining boost characteristics of a setup. Any person that knows fluid dynamics will tell you that what you have on the entrance of a pipe or at the exit isn't the only thing that matters, its all about what happens through the pipe that determines flow, pressure, etc.
Chris
05-20-2008, 03:29 PM
#62
I'm not stating that this our turbo specs.
I was just referring to a sample turbo spec that would be considered "small" or "moderate" in the rotary industry. Not specifically ours, hence the range in compressor diameter. Our exhaust housing is .84 and the turbine wheel is not just a P-Trim.
Just though I'd clear that up.
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 05-20-2008 at 03:40 PM.
05-20-2008, 03:34 PM
#63
RotoRocks Powered
I'm not stating that this our turbo specs.
I was just referring to a sample turbo spec that would be considered "small" or "moderate" in the rotary industry. Not specifically ours, hence the range in compressor diameter. Our exhaust housing is .84 and the turbine wheel is not just a P-Trim.
Just though I'd clear that up.
Chris
I was just referring to a sample turbo spec that would be considered "small" or "moderate" in the rotary industry. Not specifically ours, hence the range in compressor diameter. Our exhaust housing is .84 and the turbine wheel is not just a P-Trim.
Just though I'd clear that up.
Chris
05-20-2008, 03:38 PM
#64
The Professor
Anyone who is driving the car aggressively is not going to notice any lag.
Anyone who is cruising in 6th and wants warp speed is going to notice lag.
Enough said.
Anyone who is cruising in 6th and wants warp speed is going to notice lag.
Enough said.
05-20-2008, 03:53 PM
#66
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Yeah, I suppose you can fiddle with the turbine characteristics...I dunno, I did all my work with big steam turbines, not these little air blowers.
05-20-2008, 04:04 PM
#67
RotoRocks Powered
C'mon guys
Post a log, put this thread to rest. Ok, shut me up if that's what ya wanna call it...
I say that on this turbo 12 psi is hardly attainable even at 4500 RPM
Making a claim that it is happening at 3500!!??
...No Way!
I honestly want to find myself extending my apologies, and to be proven wrong.
By the way, these are the specks of my T70 as quoted by the supplier:
Wet floating bearing
Turbine wheel trim 64.5mm
compressor wheel 60.5mm super 70 (whatever the hell "super 70" means)
turbine housing A/R .84
compressor housing A/R .70
Last edited by rotorocks; 05-20-2008 at 04:12 PM.
05-20-2008, 04:13 PM
#68
C'mon guys
Post a log, put this thread to rest. Ok, shut me up if that's what ya wanna call it...
I say that on this turbo 12 psi is hardly attainable even at 4500 RPM
Making a claim that it is happening at 3500!!??
...No Way!
I honestly want to find myself extending my apologies, and to be proven wrong.
Post a log, put this thread to rest. Ok, shut me up if that's what ya wanna call it...
I say that on this turbo 12 psi is hardly attainable even at 4500 RPM
Making a claim that it is happening at 3500!!??
...No Way!
I honestly want to find myself extending my apologies, and to be proven wrong.
Chris
05-20-2008, 04:22 PM
#70
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/S...lip_155817.htm
Read the text.
"By 4K rpms it is spooled up."
And this in a car that has a 4.777 Diff gear which will lower engine load per gear and therefore cause longer spool times.
Definitely not 5.5-6K.
Case closed.
Now on to other things, how's it going flyboi?
Read the text.
"By 4K rpms it is spooled up."
And this in a car that has a 4.777 Diff gear which will lower engine load per gear and therefore cause longer spool times.
Definitely not 5.5-6K.
Case closed.
Now on to other things, how's it going flyboi?
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 05-20-2008 at 04:24 PM.
05-20-2008, 05:37 PM
#71
RotoRocks Powered
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/S...lip_155817.htm
Read the text.
"By 4K rpms it is spooled up."
And this in a car that has a 4.777 Diff gear which will lower engine load per gear and therefore cause longer spool times.
Definitely not 5.5-6K.
Case closed.
Now on to other things, how's it going flyboi?
Read the text.
"By 4K rpms it is spooled up."
And this in a car that has a 4.777 Diff gear which will lower engine load per gear and therefore cause longer spool times.
Definitely not 5.5-6K.
Case closed.
Now on to other things, how's it going flyboi?
That is barely 9 psi by (4K?), not 12! (4200 maybe 4300? makes quite a bit difference though, right?)
That video shows no RPM whatsoever. While the logger will show an exact correlation.
Even more to the point that in lower gear, On the street, the spool rate will be slower, because of less load.
I don't understand how people are spooling this same size turbo to full boost in an rx7 at 3500-4000rpm with 2 fewer intake ports and with larger A/R's on the exhaust and you find it so hard to believe on the 8. This thread is not a thread to prove anything, nor do I believe I have to, the kit has been proven and the people that need to know that do. This thread is about flyboi's install and experience, lets keep it at that.
Chris
Chris
I started this by saying that the dyno has confirmed my suspicions about the turbo, that the turbo itself is over sized for a what can be considered fun street car, although is great for a track. I also said that it will make full boost by 5500 and did boost to 14 PSI by 6k rpm, and mentioned it's performance on my setup.
You argued my point making a claiming that it spools near instantly, and even pointed me to the dyno chart, saying "look at the AF... you see? no lag!" however that is not the case, and looking at the AF ratios and how it decreases, and the power increases, I do not the see turbocharger performing the way it is being portrayed by you, but much rather exactly as it is described by me.
After getting a series of very obscure answers from you... Well let's put it this way: It makes it look like you are not answering the questions because you have no answer to it. So far you had offered absolutely no proof of me providing inaccurate information, and none of the kit owners jumped in to tell me that i am wrong.
You on the other hand came up with an absolutely extraordinary claim of 12PSI at 3500 RPM on this kit, with this turbo... On your car that is?
I call this claim ...hmm, how to put it softly... maybe a little bit too far stretched?
This is it! Everyone grab popcorn! I want to know the truth and I am calling you on it!
Either prove your claim to be true (do logged pulls. No nitrous spraying, no purposefully retarding ignition to the point of where it starts burning the fuel in the manifold...
Dyno is not needed here, just a laptop hooked to Int-X) And if you can show us/me, that your system is capable of making 12 PSI at 3500 rpm (as you claim) I will publicly apologize to you, and everyone else. Admit that I am bored at work and acted like a child. Otherwise, you take back your claim and admit you have been exaggerating the capabilities of this kit, because you wanted it to appear more attractive to the customers.
Well off course you can continue avoiding the answer, but well know why you'd be doing that.
C'mon, you made a great product. Stand by it!
This is truly one of the cases where I WANT TO BE WRONG!
05-20-2008, 05:39 PM
#72
05-20-2008, 05:44 PM
#73
RotoRocks Powered
There ya go!!!
Much more like it.
05-20-2008, 06:02 PM
#74
werD?
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haha i'm sorry, i can't really contribute much about the technicalities. all i kno is what i wrote already... the kit is amazing and i had high expectations and it was surpassed. it spools quick (in my opinion), pulls hard and smooth.
Gonna have my tuner call chris soon so we can push this bad boy a bit harder. I'd really like to get this turbo to boost past 7k.
I'm gonna hit the tracks end of this month the way it is, then once i get that figured out, i'll dyno and go to the tracks again (hopefully with new tires by then lol).
Chris, i really appreciate all your time and effort to answer all my petty questions. Looking forward to much more =]
** Anyone in NJ want to go to englishtown with me? Let's set something up... maybe a mini meet?
Gonna have my tuner call chris soon so we can push this bad boy a bit harder. I'd really like to get this turbo to boost past 7k.
I'm gonna hit the tracks end of this month the way it is, then once i get that figured out, i'll dyno and go to the tracks again (hopefully with new tires by then lol).
Chris, i really appreciate all your time and effort to answer all my petty questions. Looking forward to much more =]
** Anyone in NJ want to go to englishtown with me? Let's set something up... maybe a mini meet?
05-20-2008, 06:14 PM
#75
RotoRocks Powered
haha i'm sorry, i can't really contribute much about the technicalities. all i kno is what i wrote already... the kit is amazing and i had high expectations and it was surpassed. it spools quick (in my opinion), pulls hard and smooth.
Gonna have my tuner call chris soon so we can push this bad boy a bit harder. I'd really like to get this turbo to boost past 7k.
I'm gonna hit the tracks end of this month the way it is, then once i get that figured out, i'll dyno and go to the tracks again (hopefully with new tires by then lol).
Chris, i really appreciate all your time and effort to answer all my petty questions. Looking forward to much more =]
** Anyone in NJ want to go to englishtown with me? Let's set something up... maybe a mini meet?
Gonna have my tuner call chris soon so we can push this bad boy a bit harder. I'd really like to get this turbo to boost past 7k.
I'm gonna hit the tracks end of this month the way it is, then once i get that figured out, i'll dyno and go to the tracks again (hopefully with new tires by then lol).
Chris, i really appreciate all your time and effort to answer all my petty questions. Looking forward to much more =]
** Anyone in NJ want to go to englishtown with me? Let's set something up... maybe a mini meet?
Didn't mean it to turn out like this. I just stated my own observation to sorta prove to myself, not to crap on anyone else, but fantasy took over the reality a little. That video, is exactly how it run on my car, and it is exactly how it now runs, but 2K earlier, and there is no way in hell T70 can do the same.