Axial Flow Supercharger
06-30-2006, 03:24 PM
#3651
Bummed, but bring on OU!
Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.
06-30-2006, 03:28 PM
#3652
Originally Posted by therm8
Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.
i will take that bet..
beers
06-30-2006, 03:53 PM
#3653
Registered User
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Originally Posted by therm8
Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.
I'm just going to play spoiled little brat here, every one else has it mommy, why can't I!!!
06-30-2006, 04:31 PM
#3654
Gotta Love Two Strokes
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ one of the premier Subaru tuners is working on programming the RX-8 ECU right now. I offered do drive my car there to let them play but they said they have some local volunteers now.
06-30-2006, 04:36 PM
#3655
Gotta Love Two Strokes
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
It will work for your Alfa. We are gearing up for 50 units right now. Some parts are in process as we speak. I think the Rx layout will package for you also. 
1300, 1600, 1750 or 2000?
Wow, why do I know that? My head hurts now.
1300, 1600, 1750 or 2000?
Wow, why do I know that? My head hurts now.
I was going to get an old SPICA throttle body set and do a standalone ecu with shower head injectors like I am using on my Ducati and El-Camino (I love wet manifolds for cooling the intake charge)
but if I can supercharge it.....
but then, I am at 10.4 cr so it may not be feasible. but then the block is girdled...
If you all think RX-8's are expensive toys try Italian cr.., i mean equipment.
06-30-2006, 05:06 PM
#3656
Originally Posted by patrick_andraste
http://www.cobbtuning.com/ one of the premier Subaru tuners is working on programming the RX-8 ECU right now. I offered do drive my car there to let them play but they said they have some local volunteers now.
damn you,
i wanted to make that bet... and also two others..
beers
06-30-2006, 05:25 PM
#3657
Gotta Love Two Strokes
Originally Posted by swoope
damn you,
i wanted to make that bet... and also two others..
i wanted to make that bet... and also two others..
06-30-2006, 05:52 PM
#3659
Ok Rp--just another note of support from the older guys here. You know young'uns are impatience. You have always said from the get go(and yes I have been around a while, read your 1st entry day you posted) that you will only provide this product if it is feasible and affordable and you would be damned if you had to use an engine management system that was more expensive that the af!
I m not knocking Scott here. Scott has put in some wrench time, developed a product that no one else had, and has been fair and open about it. Heck he even has volunteered his services in tuning to differant areas of the country for what I consider a pretty low fee.
To the rest of you on the forum-- RP has been around the block a time or two, he knows what he is doing, if he says he is going to do something--he will. And when it's offered it will be right. If it ain't right it wont be offered. He is one of those people that outs a little of himself into product sold and he has a hell of a lot of children.
olddragger
I m not knocking Scott here. Scott has put in some wrench time, developed a product that no one else had, and has been fair and open about it. Heck he even has volunteered his services in tuning to differant areas of the country for what I consider a pretty low fee.
To the rest of you on the forum-- RP has been around the block a time or two, he knows what he is doing, if he says he is going to do something--he will. And when it's offered it will be right. If it ain't right it wont be offered. He is one of those people that outs a little of himself into product sold and he has a hell of a lot of children.
olddragger
06-30-2006, 06:01 PM
#3660
Registered User
Originally Posted by Richard Paul
[Aircraft and race car side topic stuff deleted]
...I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.
I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.
...
...I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.
I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.
...
You have an engine with two hiccups in the power band due to the various intake valves closing and opening. Each hiccup is going to need its special consideration and is likely slightly different on each car.
My car drives slightly different from day to day. Some day's it has plenty of power, other days it acts like it is hungover. Some days the idle is smooth as silk and other days it almost stalls on its own in neutral. The simple fact that you can can let the clutch out and not touch the gas and the car will automatically increase the revs to prevent you from stalling, tells me this car is doing a lot behind the scenes. Some days the cruise control is perfectly well behaved and other days it has little lurches back and forth.
I think other driver's have similar issues. Among other driver's you have dyno sheets that are all over the place. You have fuel ecconomies that are all over the map (some people get black junk on the tail pipes; some don't). If I remember correct (page 23754 of this thread I believe) your car had tremendous problems and was very low on power from factory.
On top of all this RX-8 specific mess you have altitude, temperature, and reformulated gasoline differences that vary accross the country.
Greddy realized this and came out with a whimpy 5PSI Kit. (albeit with its own problems). If you want to do plug 'n play, I would suggest you do the same.
I know nothing about axial flow superchargers but I can tell you that each RX-8 is very much its own seperate different animal. Maybe if your proposed system can get rid of all the individuality of each car and really work off of the engine that you feel is identical in each RX-8, you'll be in business.
Good luck, and I do sincerely mean good luck. Let us know when you are finished.
-Mr. Wigggles
Last edited by MrWigggles; 06-30-2006 at 06:13 PM.
06-30-2006, 06:16 PM
#3661
Mr Wiggles-- (love that name man!) in many ways you are correct, but the more we learn about this engine/car the more consistant the engine we get this engine to perform. Most cars are now dyno'ing 185 to the 195 range ONCE the car has good plugs, coils, clean maf's and non clogged cats. There is a rare one that will make over 200(jdm tune?) RP is not aiming at MAX performance but a good performing consitant daily driver that just so happens to have a good bit more power than stock. Enviromental differances-- heck yea they are there--nothing anyone can do about that.
olddragger
olddragger
06-30-2006, 07:42 PM
#3663
Administrator
Originally Posted by therm8
Everyone, who is in the know, has been saying that flash tuning is right around the corner for several months to a year. I'm not buying it anymore. PnP capability just might not be feasible, and I can live with that, as long as the tune is close and just needs tweaking. If I had to lay odds on a flash tuner coming out in the next year, I'd put it less that 1:1. A PnP kit's odds would be about even. But that's just my opinion.
06-30-2006, 09:19 PM
#3664
Administrator
wiggles-
by now every 2004 car will be to at least R flash because of the last recall. soon they will be at S again because of the recall. so anyone trying to go with a piggy back just needs to state what its based on. flash level is less of a bother if going with other solutions but in the case of say a reflash- that reflash has to be based on the most current so it has the desirable fixes from previous recalls that are not affected by the timing and fuel changes . but the flash difference is really a non issue for anything not piggy back. one thing tho is that thre is a difference between 2004 and 2005- a flash for 2004 will not work on a 2005 car. so for a flash there has to be at least 2 to choose from.
nothing else is that different from car to car for the rigth solution. most of what you talk about is enviromental. the pcm adjusts for most of those things. a reflash would have the benefit of the power of the pcm to adjust. thats what fuel trims are for any way- to adjust for the variances in inectors from car to car. btw the car has always known what gear it is in from the begining(jeff will argue but it does) and has maps assigned to different gears and develops trim for different gears. although often they are the same.
piggy backs are have actually one thing over interceptors and thats the adaption by the PCM. all those Greddy kitted people wouldnt have had problems(well basically) if they had been on theM it was designed for and wanted to stay with the "stock" greddy power. they can have aset tune and let the pcm still control for knock and adjust for things in closed loop etc. greddy unfortunately just didnt do a good job out of the gate.
since the interceptor types remove the control from the pcm they dont have that benefit. so have to have various ways to adapt to altitude and such thro more maps to switch between. they have to be fine tuned on each car to deal with tolerance differences between fuel injector etc. but they are easily adapted to changing from the "stock" set up from a kit and dont have to worry about being developed for a particular factory tune.
a reflash has all the benefits of the PCM but just gives it new instructions. So the PCM can do its thing all the time with worries. no need tpo worry about things like altitude and humidity becaue the pcm takes care of those things already and continues to do so. it needs to be based on most current PCM codes so ther eare no bugs. Its basically locked so the owner doesnt have to worry and cna just plug and play. The company can set a tune and not worry that someone will screw with it and then blame them when an engien fails. but its locked so people generally cant upgrade themselves.
so the slight variances between cars really make no difference to the reflash only slightly larger difference to the piggyback and the biggest influence on the interceptors. and only when you get into the territory of the size of your safety margin from the kit developer and the end user's wanting to change things.
i believe richard wants to remove the variable of the end user as much as possible by offering basically "locked" tuning. an interceptor which allows anyone to tune it really isnt the solution.
by now every 2004 car will be to at least R flash because of the last recall. soon they will be at S again because of the recall. so anyone trying to go with a piggy back just needs to state what its based on. flash level is less of a bother if going with other solutions but in the case of say a reflash- that reflash has to be based on the most current so it has the desirable fixes from previous recalls that are not affected by the timing and fuel changes . but the flash difference is really a non issue for anything not piggy back. one thing tho is that thre is a difference between 2004 and 2005- a flash for 2004 will not work on a 2005 car. so for a flash there has to be at least 2 to choose from.
nothing else is that different from car to car for the rigth solution. most of what you talk about is enviromental. the pcm adjusts for most of those things. a reflash would have the benefit of the power of the pcm to adjust. thats what fuel trims are for any way- to adjust for the variances in inectors from car to car. btw the car has always known what gear it is in from the begining(jeff will argue but it does) and has maps assigned to different gears and develops trim for different gears. although often they are the same.
piggy backs are have actually one thing over interceptors and thats the adaption by the PCM. all those Greddy kitted people wouldnt have had problems(well basically) if they had been on theM it was designed for and wanted to stay with the "stock" greddy power. they can have aset tune and let the pcm still control for knock and adjust for things in closed loop etc. greddy unfortunately just didnt do a good job out of the gate.
since the interceptor types remove the control from the pcm they dont have that benefit. so have to have various ways to adapt to altitude and such thro more maps to switch between. they have to be fine tuned on each car to deal with tolerance differences between fuel injector etc. but they are easily adapted to changing from the "stock" set up from a kit and dont have to worry about being developed for a particular factory tune.
a reflash has all the benefits of the PCM but just gives it new instructions. So the PCM can do its thing all the time with worries. no need tpo worry about things like altitude and humidity becaue the pcm takes care of those things already and continues to do so. it needs to be based on most current PCM codes so ther eare no bugs. Its basically locked so the owner doesnt have to worry and cna just plug and play. The company can set a tune and not worry that someone will screw with it and then blame them when an engien fails. but its locked so people generally cant upgrade themselves.
so the slight variances between cars really make no difference to the reflash only slightly larger difference to the piggyback and the biggest influence on the interceptors. and only when you get into the territory of the size of your safety margin from the kit developer and the end user's wanting to change things.
i believe richard wants to remove the variable of the end user as much as possible by offering basically "locked" tuning. an interceptor which allows anyone to tune it really isnt the solution.
06-30-2006, 09:47 PM
#3666
Administrator
oh yeah and...
click me then scroll to ongoing developments near the bottom
click me then scroll to ongoing developments near the bottom
" ECU/PCM Reprogramming - (Update 6/06) - Good news, Bad news. The good news is that we finally developed a flash for the RX-8 that offers improved power and performance! We have undertaken several successful test reflashes on 2004 RX-8's, but the bad news is that we are currently limited to only the 2004 model. We are currently researching this limitation and will post more information in the near future."
06-30-2006, 09:52 PM
#3668
Administrator
iTrader: (7)
Whoa, sweet news from RB.
06-30-2006, 11:31 PM
#3673
Bummed, but bring on OU!
Originally Posted by zoom44
so someone just lost a bet
Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.
Last edited by therm8; 06-30-2006 at 11:36 PM.
06-30-2006, 11:34 PM
#3674
Originally Posted by therm8
Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.
beers
07-01-2006, 01:31 AM
#3675
Registered
Originally Posted by therm8
Still under development I see. And there's no bet, just odds. Let's see them apply it to an aftermarket power adder successfully before people start claiming victory. I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong.
Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.
Is this full control, or just fuel control? Idle? Ignition timing? Split? Fans? Never any details with RB. Handheld unit or stupid mail off program? etc etc etc.