Axial Flow Supercharger
06-30-2006, 06:54 AM
#3626
the more things change
lets see his product, his money and his time trying to get it right for us the first time around. i can wait for the end product. plus i've seen it in person so i know what the problem is .
06-30-2006, 08:42 AM
#3627
Originally Posted by willofgod
RP,
Just to provide a counter point to MadDog, I plan on buying your product (assuming it doesn't break the bank) and I am waiting patiently... and I feel I have nothing to bitch about. Continue the good work...
Just to provide a counter point to MadDog, I plan on buying your product (assuming it doesn't break the bank) and I am waiting patiently... and I feel I have nothing to bitch about. Continue the good work...
06-30-2006, 09:25 AM
#3628
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I'm just frustrated. Sorry for being tyrannical about it. But Photic, I can't really can't understand how you can think there's a lot of "openess" and "honesty" going on here. So far, we have three people all saying "that's all I'll say", or "I know what's going on, but I'm not saying". Is that really open and honest?
I guess my BS detector is going off. I really fail to see why the EMS is such an issue. All I've seen is a lot of bitterness towards digital solutions in general, and more specifically, for one solution that works for litterally everyone else. Will someone PLEASE tell me why its the fault of the IntX that this system is not yet on the road?
Honestly, I had to do a little tweaking to get my IntX running right - due to my elevation (~6000ft). But, moving my injectors around and changing the staging is all that was required. After being one of the biggest skeptics, I'm a true believer in the IntX. That's a testament to its capabilities. If you can't tell, I'm relentless in questioning and investigating. Until someone can explain to me why the EMS is so much harder for this SC, I'm calling BS on all this 'openess' and 'honesty'.
I guess my BS detector is going off. I really fail to see why the EMS is such an issue. All I've seen is a lot of bitterness towards digital solutions in general, and more specifically, for one solution that works for litterally everyone else. Will someone PLEASE tell me why its the fault of the IntX that this system is not yet on the road?
Honestly, I had to do a little tweaking to get my IntX running right - due to my elevation (~6000ft). But, moving my injectors around and changing the staging is all that was required. After being one of the biggest skeptics, I'm a true believer in the IntX. That's a testament to its capabilities. If you can't tell, I'm relentless in questioning and investigating. Until someone can explain to me why the EMS is so much harder for this SC, I'm calling BS on all this 'openess' and 'honesty'.
06-30-2006, 09:27 AM
#3629
Originally Posted by MadDog
re-goddam-diculous....
I suppose the EMS situation IS solved for turbos, but apparently not SC's. How can it work for probably close to 100 turbo'd 8s but not your supercharger?
Please, illuminate us. I find this constant dragging on to be frustrating - and I'm not even waiting for a AFSC! But if I were waiting for it, I'd take this coy gamesmanship regarding the facts to be infuriating - and possibly a sign that something is amiss. Left to my own, I'd have to conclude that there is no plausible reason that a SC would provide any more of an EMS challenge than a turbo. Therefore, I see no reason why we haven't seen this SC in action yet. If I'm wrong prove me so. I'm not afraid of being wrong in a public setting. Neither should you be.
Yes, I'm hounding you. Yes, I'm being an *** about it. But, I think I have a right to be. I've shared both my successes and failures with the forum. I expect anyone posting outside the 'vendor' area to do the same. Outside the 'vendor' section you are a member of the Community. The Community is here to share knowledge. That goes double when folks have been waiting patiently (remarkable patience) for your product.
I suppose the EMS situation IS solved for turbos, but apparently not SC's. How can it work for probably close to 100 turbo'd 8s but not your supercharger?
Please, illuminate us. I find this constant dragging on to be frustrating - and I'm not even waiting for a AFSC! But if I were waiting for it, I'd take this coy gamesmanship regarding the facts to be infuriating - and possibly a sign that something is amiss. Left to my own, I'd have to conclude that there is no plausible reason that a SC would provide any more of an EMS challenge than a turbo. Therefore, I see no reason why we haven't seen this SC in action yet. If I'm wrong prove me so. I'm not afraid of being wrong in a public setting. Neither should you be.
Yes, I'm hounding you. Yes, I'm being an *** about it. But, I think I have a right to be. I've shared both my successes and failures with the forum. I expect anyone posting outside the 'vendor' area to do the same. Outside the 'vendor' section you are a member of the Community. The Community is here to share knowledge. That goes double when folks have been waiting patiently (remarkable patience) for your product.
beers
06-30-2006, 10:35 AM
#3631
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It was mentioned before, MadDog, the IntX isn't a drop-in solution.
Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. However, RP put one in the car and tried to get it tuned and it didn't happen, so there you have it.
Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. However, RP put one in the car and tried to get it tuned and it didn't happen, so there you have it.
06-30-2006, 10:41 AM
#3632
Go Texas Longhorns!
The only reason the Pettit kit isn't out is they want to sell it with a cheaper pnp flash system.
Pettit has been running the hardware on an emanage for testing and now the interceptor-x with no issues that I am aware of. For them, its a cost issue, as the Interceptor-X while good, isn't cheap.
Pettit wants to ship out a soup to nuts system that requires as little tuning as possible. Richard is aiming for the same thing, which as we've learned is a little harder than it sounds.
Pettit has been running the hardware on an emanage for testing and now the interceptor-x with no issues that I am aware of. For them, its a cost issue, as the Interceptor-X while good, isn't cheap.
Pettit wants to ship out a soup to nuts system that requires as little tuning as possible. Richard is aiming for the same thing, which as we've learned is a little harder than it sounds.
06-30-2006, 11:34 AM
#3635
Gotta Love Two Strokes
I am patient.
being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.
if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.
RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.
being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.
if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.
RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.
06-30-2006, 11:38 AM
#3636
I typed out a big long rebutt to this sillyness but then zapped it. Why? Because I owe you nothing. I'm the one with the million bucks and six years into this thing so I'll take all the ******* time I like. It's my money.
Ask any of the members who have been to the new shop if it's BS. Have you seen a million dollors in machinery on a BS pile?
I have been reluctant to bad mouth someone elses product but you push my hand. Windows 95 is a good system and if you knew no better you'd probably be happy if someone sold you an OS like that today for three times it's price. You'd be fat, dumb and happy. Why do I have burst your bubble, just 'cause I happen know it's a dozen years behind. Because you asked.
I can't sell that system to my customers and tell them it's the latest hot tip double throw down item available. It works, but so do roots blowers. I don't build radial air cooled engines. But if Pratt didn't, we'd all be speaking German. Pratt now builds axial flow compressed, turbine driven propless engines.
Back when I was driving open wheel race cars a Cosworth DFV was a world beating engine that won over 100 Grand Prix. A genius design of four valve four cam V8 of 3 liters making 495 HP at 8500. I'd love one sitting in my shop just to look at. But a Renault F1 engine of today is 2.4 liters, 800 hp and turns 18000 RPM. on top of that it weighs in at 210 lbs.
If I had a '70's era F1 car with a DFV in it I'd run it at vintage races and never stop smiling. Then again if I had a 2000's era F1 car I'd put a brick under the gas pedal before ever driving it. Well that might be a lie, but you get the point.
I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.
I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.
How many parts are there in it to make them different? Electronics are all the same, no difference there. It's digital.
Sure a guy could play around and take all the safety settings out of the thing to get a couple of more HP. If I can, I'll find a way to lock out all but the very few tuners. Then again for every lock there is a pick. If they try hard enough they can blow up anything. You just can't save everyone.
Have I illuminated you MadDog? You're right about one thing, your an ***.
This is a true story: Once upon a time Buick built a car with an Eaton blower in it. When I heard they were going to come out with that I called one of the Engineers at GM to ask why he didn't test my unit. He gave me an honest answer, he didn't know about my unit until recently and is not going in to his boss to tell him he didn't do his job last year. So his boss was happy. Shouldn't have been, but he didn't know any better.
Ask any of the members who have been to the new shop if it's BS. Have you seen a million dollors in machinery on a BS pile?
I have been reluctant to bad mouth someone elses product but you push my hand. Windows 95 is a good system and if you knew no better you'd probably be happy if someone sold you an OS like that today for three times it's price. You'd be fat, dumb and happy. Why do I have burst your bubble, just 'cause I happen know it's a dozen years behind. Because you asked.
I can't sell that system to my customers and tell them it's the latest hot tip double throw down item available. It works, but so do roots blowers. I don't build radial air cooled engines. But if Pratt didn't, we'd all be speaking German. Pratt now builds axial flow compressed, turbine driven propless engines.
Back when I was driving open wheel race cars a Cosworth DFV was a world beating engine that won over 100 Grand Prix. A genius design of four valve four cam V8 of 3 liters making 495 HP at 8500. I'd love one sitting in my shop just to look at. But a Renault F1 engine of today is 2.4 liters, 800 hp and turns 18000 RPM. on top of that it weighs in at 210 lbs.
If I had a '70's era F1 car with a DFV in it I'd run it at vintage races and never stop smiling. Then again if I had a 2000's era F1 car I'd put a brick under the gas pedal before ever driving it. Well that might be a lie, but you get the point.
I have three EMS system to test that will blow your system away while allowing all the stock componants to remain intact. That means it can pass a CARB test, have closed loop, knock sensor and cruise control. You don't have to look at a CEL light every time you look at the dash. On top of that they are half the price.
I intend to deliver these plug and play. No dyno shop required. Don't start with that crap that every engine is different. With modern machinery and inspection equipment they've never more the same. If someone whom I belive tests a batch of these things and tells me they all made between 214 and 219 HP how much closer do you expect? Those were early engines, they are probably closer now.
How many parts are there in it to make them different? Electronics are all the same, no difference there. It's digital.
Sure a guy could play around and take all the safety settings out of the thing to get a couple of more HP. If I can, I'll find a way to lock out all but the very few tuners. Then again for every lock there is a pick. If they try hard enough they can blow up anything. You just can't save everyone.
Have I illuminated you MadDog? You're right about one thing, your an ***.
This is a true story: Once upon a time Buick built a car with an Eaton blower in it. When I heard they were going to come out with that I called one of the Engineers at GM to ask why he didn't test my unit. He gave me an honest answer, he didn't know about my unit until recently and is not going in to his boss to tell him he didn't do his job last year. So his boss was happy. Shouldn't have been, but he didn't know any better.
Last edited by Richard Paul; 06-30-2006 at 11:44 AM.
06-30-2006, 11:50 AM
#3637
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For what it is worth, based on cost and tuning, I would rather not have the Interceptor X as part of the solution. I want it to be a drop in solution, especially with that whole CARB thing.
Maddog is pretty wound up about something that has nothing to do with him.
Maddog is pretty wound up about something that has nothing to do with him.
06-30-2006, 11:54 AM
#3638
Administrator
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Bravo Richard!
I've been to his shop, seen his machinery, seen the work he does and I have nothing but respect for what he's doing.
Richard is doing the right thing by making sure he comes out with a superior product the FIRST time.
Keep up the great work RP. Maybe next time I'm at your shop it wont' be so freakin' hot and we can go grab some lunch and beers.
I've been to his shop, seen his machinery, seen the work he does and I have nothing but respect for what he's doing.
Richard is doing the right thing by making sure he comes out with a superior product the FIRST time.
Keep up the great work RP. Maybe next time I'm at your shop it wont' be so freakin' hot and we can go grab some lunch and beers.
Last edited by Jedi54; 06-30-2006 at 11:57 AM.
06-30-2006, 12:05 PM
#3639
Go Texas Longhorns!
Its almost the weekend, lets try to not get to bend outta shape before a holiday.
We've had alot of delayed projects due to how complex the car is. And the good news is that the vendors in question put quality and reliability at the top of their list. I can't fault Richard and Pettit for wanting to get it right the first time, and making the system pnp.
After jacking around with just the ECU, I have a insight into how difficult this process can be. Patience is a virtue, and I think people will be pleasantly surpised at Sevenstock 9 the variety of FI options available.
We've had alot of delayed projects due to how complex the car is. And the good news is that the vendors in question put quality and reliability at the top of their list. I can't fault Richard and Pettit for wanting to get it right the first time, and making the system pnp.
After jacking around with just the ECU, I have a insight into how difficult this process can be. Patience is a virtue, and I think people will be pleasantly surpised at Sevenstock 9 the variety of FI options available.
06-30-2006, 12:34 PM
#3641
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Alright, RP, lets not get into name-calling. I appologize for getting you spun-up. I just can't seem to help myself sometims. Especially when I sense a lot of unspoken goings-on. But, you're right anyway. I 'm just glad I admitted my assishness before anyone else had the opportunity to point it out. 
But in the same way as you owe me nothing, niether do I owe you deference on this issue. If you can't stand the criticism, it would be better to keep the project a secret until all the kinks are ironed out. Posting on an internet forum is no way to shield your sensitivities.
Like I've said before, my IntX install was probably the most complex of all of them. I had to re-do the injector staging and move my injectors around to optimize the boost transitions. No big deal. The Intx was perfectly configurble for my unique needs. Now we all have my personal experience on which to draw. When someone else tries to FI a car that at 11psi ambient, they won't have to guess as to what it will take.
My point is that the forum can be a wealth of help and information as much as it can be a place where you might get offended. Deal with it. My suggestion would be to share your experiences so that someone might be able to provide some help on the issue. Granted, to do so requries that you swallow your ego for a while. But, someone might have just the piece of information that you need.
Again, I appologise for offending you. But, few things get me more piqued than a lot of people trying to hide something. I don't have a problem with the delays. I just have an issue with blaming them on something and then not being able to back it up with any technical information.
Sorry for tweaking you. I'll try to be better about it. I'm just an ***.
BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?
But in the same way as you owe me nothing, niether do I owe you deference on this issue. If you can't stand the criticism, it would be better to keep the project a secret until all the kinks are ironed out. Posting on an internet forum is no way to shield your sensitivities.
Like I've said before, my IntX install was probably the most complex of all of them. I had to re-do the injector staging and move my injectors around to optimize the boost transitions. No big deal. The Intx was perfectly configurble for my unique needs. Now we all have my personal experience on which to draw. When someone else tries to FI a car that at 11psi ambient, they won't have to guess as to what it will take.
My point is that the forum can be a wealth of help and information as much as it can be a place where you might get offended. Deal with it. My suggestion would be to share your experiences so that someone might be able to provide some help on the issue. Granted, to do so requries that you swallow your ego for a while. But, someone might have just the piece of information that you need.
Again, I appologise for offending you. But, few things get me more piqued than a lot of people trying to hide something. I don't have a problem with the delays. I just have an issue with blaming them on something and then not being able to back it up with any technical information.
Sorry for tweaking you. I'll try to be better about it. I'm just an ***.
BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?
Last edited by MadDog; 06-30-2006 at 12:36 PM.
06-30-2006, 01:08 PM
#3642
Registered
It's not. In fact the opposite should be true as boost can hit and rise pretty quick on a turbo where it is more gradual and predictable on a supercharger. On a turbo I would want to set it up so that additional injectors come online only when boost is sensed. This makes tuning safer. On a supercharger I'd run them staged so that they come on based on rpm rather than pressure and just adjust different load points in the map accordingly. Since a blower's boost curve is more predictable, this is much easier to do.
06-30-2006, 01:17 PM
#3644
Bummed, but bring on OU!
Originally Posted by MadDog
BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?
Disclaimer: I'm not bagging on anyone, even though several thousand posts ago it was made clear that this is a 6port blower only (therefore being of no use to me), and I could care less about the progress anymore.
I do appreciate MD's threads, and the work he's done to bring progress to the Renesis aftermarket. Nothing wrong with getting a little fired up every now and then.
06-30-2006, 01:24 PM
#3645
BTW: Does anyone care to address my question? Why would the EMS for a SC be any more challenging than for a turbo?[/QUOTE]
OK, in the interest of peace and harmony I'll answer that question........Wait, I already did. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work good enough or do enough and is twice the price.
Why would I deliver it or endorse it. I even tried to keep mouth shut.
Just simple, it works and for those who want to use it, best of luck to them.. It has done those cars well.
That doesn't mean there aren't better units out there and for half the price.
Look, Scott did his job well. he went out in the feild and built some maps and tuned a few cars then sold a bunch of units. On the other hand he did not make my car even driveable. I'm sure he has his exuse, but that doesn't interest me. The people you know of couldn't help, the people in Australia offered help, but WTF for? So I sell a less then best unit for twice the price to my customers? I'm not here to make someone else rich.
It's not the same for me. Sure someone can get it to work, but then what? I have a car that runs OK, but I can't sell the product. Why waste my time with it. Someone will buy mine, put in somone elses maps and be happy. He doesn't have to market it with a straight face. I have other needs. Time and money being some of them.
OK, in the interest of peace and harmony I'll answer that question........Wait, I already did. It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it doesn't work good enough or do enough and is twice the price.
Why would I deliver it or endorse it. I even tried to keep mouth shut.
Just simple, it works and for those who want to use it, best of luck to them.. It has done those cars well.
That doesn't mean there aren't better units out there and for half the price.
Look, Scott did his job well. he went out in the feild and built some maps and tuned a few cars then sold a bunch of units. On the other hand he did not make my car even driveable. I'm sure he has his exuse, but that doesn't interest me. The people you know of couldn't help, the people in Australia offered help, but WTF for? So I sell a less then best unit for twice the price to my customers? I'm not here to make someone else rich.
It's not the same for me. Sure someone can get it to work, but then what? I have a car that runs OK, but I can't sell the product. Why waste my time with it. Someone will buy mine, put in somone elses maps and be happy. He doesn't have to market it with a straight face. I have other needs. Time and money being some of them.
06-30-2006, 01:55 PM
#3646
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RP, I just want to say I love your ethics.
I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it. Running our business like that has been enormously sucessful.
So don't let anyone change the way to produce your products. I'm more than happy to wait for a product that's done right and it'll pay off for you in the end
Keep up the good work, and I've got my money waiting in the bank for that kickass SC as soon as its ready
I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it. Running our business like that has been enormously sucessful.
So don't let anyone change the way to produce your products. I'm more than happy to wait for a product that's done right and it'll pay off for you in the end
Keep up the good work, and I've got my money waiting in the bank for that kickass SC as soon as its ready
06-30-2006, 02:04 PM
#3647
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Originally Posted by RX8SaxMan
RP, I just want to say I love your ethics.
I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it.
I work for a music store in Lancaster and we have a policy that no instrument is handed over to customer unless it plays absolutely perfect. Even when we sell a brand new instrument, we pull it out of the box and tweak it to perfection before any customer is allowed to play it.
06-30-2006, 02:08 PM
#3648
Originally Posted by patrick_andraste
I am patient.
being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.
if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.
RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.
being as I live in the shadow of Boeing, and since most of my family works with Jets, this is the horsepower solution I want for my car.
if it takes another couple of years, I'll still wait.
RP, what is the chance of purchasing just the supercharger? this seems like a fun toy to try on my Alfa Spider as well.
It will work for your Alfa. We are gearing up for 50 units right now. Some parts are in process as we speak. I think the Rx layout will package for you also.
1300, 1600, 1750 or 2000?
Wow, why do I know that? My head hurts now.
06-30-2006, 02:09 PM
#3649
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Haha, thats why we have such a loyal customer base. Everyone know that 99% of repair shops only do what they need to get by. We make sure the stuff we fix and sell actually works. Shoot, we even have our repair shop right in the middle of the showroom floor so everyone can see what we're doing!
06-30-2006, 02:42 PM
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If the AFSC came as plug and play with a flash upload, I'd be content to wait for that. I don't want to have to have the car dyno tuned and go through those headaches, even if it costs me a little hp. I don't want to worry about passing emmissions and always have a CEL.
And I can guarantee that I'm not the only one that would either purchase the Pettit or Axial unit based on that flash feature. If one had it and the other didn't, I'd go with the flash capable unit and never think twice.
And I can guarantee that I'm not the only one that would either purchase the Pettit or Axial unit based on that flash feature. If one had it and the other didn't, I'd go with the flash capable unit and never think twice.