Hesistant about CZ Stage 1..
09-06-2004, 08:02 PM
#1
Rangers Lead The Way!
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Hesistant about CZ Stage 1..
Greetings Everyone,
I just put my order in with Maurice for the stage one unit. However, after reading most people posts about this product, I am starting to become hesitant about it. I keep hearing all this bad press about how the CZ Stage 1 is burning out coils, making the car idle very rough (my car idles rough at times already), and lack of power at the low end. It was my impression that this product was supposed to be working well 'out of the box'. However, that isn't the case if I take what other people say about at at face value. I am also taking into account that most people complain if something isn't working for them, and people who have things work great tend not to speak up. Is there anyone out there that can give me a straight answer if this mod is the right way to go for 'out of the box' performance? Is it hard to tune yourself with no knowledge of using maps? Thank you all for your time.
I just put my order in with Maurice for the stage one unit. However, after reading most people posts about this product, I am starting to become hesitant about it. I keep hearing all this bad press about how the CZ Stage 1 is burning out coils, making the car idle very rough (my car idles rough at times already), and lack of power at the low end. It was my impression that this product was supposed to be working well 'out of the box'. However, that isn't the case if I take what other people say about at at face value. I am also taking into account that most people complain if something isn't working for them, and people who have things work great tend not to speak up. Is there anyone out there that can give me a straight answer if this mod is the right way to go for 'out of the box' performance? Is it hard to tune yourself with no knowledge of using maps? Thank you all for your time.
09-06-2004, 08:19 PM
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out of the box performance?
no. no question. there's a chance the map will work for you, and to be honest I've group buyed almost 45 of these and a few people haven't said either way, but the ones that it doesnt work well for make themselves know...the silent majority thoery, but it's not the majority that it works for. chances are unfortunately it will cause the problems you mentioned. you just have to work with it. right now it's either stock (or lame gains from bolt ons) or the CZ unit.
should you buy it anyway? yes. it has the potential for a +30 hp gain or more. for $600 you wont find that anywhere else. It's also very future safe (ie - F.I.) and canzoomer and his team are constantly working to make it even smoother. it's based on a greddy emanage, and maniac has shown that it works with gtech dynos and all. it has the potential, and it's not like you're buying something that will never work.
no. no question. there's a chance the map will work for you, and to be honest I've group buyed almost 45 of these and a few people haven't said either way, but the ones that it doesnt work well for make themselves know...the silent majority thoery, but it's not the majority that it works for. chances are unfortunately it will cause the problems you mentioned. you just have to work with it. right now it's either stock (or lame gains from bolt ons) or the CZ unit.
should you buy it anyway? yes. it has the potential for a +30 hp gain or more. for $600 you wont find that anywhere else. It's also very future safe (ie - F.I.) and canzoomer and his team are constantly working to make it even smoother. it's based on a greddy emanage, and maniac has shown that it works with gtech dynos and all. it has the potential, and it's not like you're buying something that will never work.
09-06-2004, 08:25 PM
#3
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Thank you epitrochoid for your cander. Could anyone you give me some insight on how easy/hard it is to make custom maps for this product?
09-06-2004, 10:06 PM
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its not difficult with a canscan cable, or a wideband o2 sensor. canscan is cheaper and just as effective. pretty much select a target AFR for wot and take/add fuel (actually airflow, but the result is the same) to keep it as close as possible. ignition is different, and I wont go into that because i suck at it...someone will chime in here.
or you can have it tuned at a shop, but they may be more conservative.
or you can have it tuned at a shop, but they may be more conservative.
09-06-2004, 10:10 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by epitrochoid
its not difficult with a canscan cable, or a wideband o2 sensor. canscan is cheaper and just as effective. pretty much select a target AFR for wot and take/add fuel (actually airflow, but the result is the same) to keep it as close as possible. ignition is different, and I wont go into that because i suck at it...someone will chime in here.
or you can have it tuned at a shop, but they may be more conservative.
or you can have it tuned at a shop, but they may be more conservative.
I am going out on a limb with some of your acronyms. I think AFR is air/fuel ratio? I am not sure what WOT is. Do you mind elaborating? Thanks for being patient while I pick your mind for the info.
09-07-2004, 12:44 PM
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lol my fault..speed racer's right...
in case there's other things you dont recognize...canscan cable is an interface that allows you to view and log the cars sensors on a laptop, particularly the wideband oxygen sensor, which gives the most accurate reading of the air/fuel ratio. target afr under wot with the cz box is 13.5 parts air to 1 part fuel, but due to variations in the electronics from car to car, that number can be much much leaner like 15:1 or 16:1, thats the reason it doesnt work for everyone.
in case there's other things you dont recognize...canscan cable is an interface that allows you to view and log the cars sensors on a laptop, particularly the wideband oxygen sensor, which gives the most accurate reading of the air/fuel ratio. target afr under wot with the cz box is 13.5 parts air to 1 part fuel, but due to variations in the electronics from car to car, that number can be much much leaner like 15:1 or 16:1, thats the reason it doesnt work for everyone.
09-07-2004, 11:43 PM
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How do you calculate the AFR from the output data from the CANScan? I've got data for Air Flow, O2S1 Sensor, RPM, and ignition advance.
09-08-2004, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RPIRX-8
How do you calculate the AFR from the output data from the CANScan? I've got data for Air Flow, O2S1 Sensor, RPM, and ignition advance.
I got that from Dan Harrison himself. I sent him an email with the same question yesterday.
09-08-2004, 11:09 PM
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What? I thought we were already talking about Canscan here? We are talking about the Canscan data "02S1 Sensor" that we get from the latest version. Nothing to do with CZ. The formula I gave was from Dan Harrison, creator of Canscan.
09-08-2004, 11:29 PM
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From what I understand, the O2S1 sensor is a direct read from the wideband O2 sensor. This means that what this sensor reports is the AFR at the time.
09-08-2004, 11:39 PM
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True but the data you get from the log under that sensor is in voltage form (not sure) so I had to email Dan Harrison and ask for the formula he used in his [URL src=http://www.ghg.net/dharrison/obdscan_data_acquisition_basics.htm]website example of the AFR[/URL] at the bottom of the page.
He sent back (02S1)*14.63
Those who have the Canscan can try this and will understand that it IS the way to plot the AFR. Without the Canscan, you can't really rely on theories based on individual opinions.
He sent back (02S1)*14.63
Those who have the Canscan can try this and will understand that it IS the way to plot the AFR. Without the Canscan, you can't really rely on theories based on individual opinions.
09-09-2004, 12:05 AM
#17
Dan Harrison and Maurice from CZ have collaborated in a software with the AFR callibrated with data from Bosch....to come up with a more accurate AFR than the sensor value*14.63 correction. This is CANScan_CZ9 It uses a differently programmed PIC chip that allows faster data aquisition rates...up to .1sec for six data values.........
09-09-2004, 12:33 AM
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6/15 - Maurice Re:Orig. CanScan vs. CZ CanScan
3 major things have been changed.
1) Hardware: The data sampling rate. In the original configuration it is only fast enough to capture 3 data set samples.
One typically wants to capture: rpm, throttle position, O2 sensor,ignition advance.
To do this, Dan has used a faster version of the Pic processor on the board.
Also, a faster serial chip has been used to handle the higher data rates.
2) Software interface. The original was designed mainly as a tool to allow one to do diagnostic and repair work on a car. It lacked several useful features, or the ergonomics were not well designed for data logging. This has been upgraded.
Also, the interface is written in Visual Basic 6, and this lacks a wide selection of baud rates for communications. The serial routines have been replaced with other code to support the appropriate data rate to handle the sampling needed.
By the use of the above changes, it became possible to sample at even time intervals ( i.e.: every 1/10 second). By fixing this, it is now possible to log with this tool at the same time as another device, and to combine the results of both sets of logs into a spreadsheet to do graphing of the data.
Previously the time interval was based on the amount of data accumulated. Once a buffer was filled, it dumped to a file. This resulted in no even time base.
3) While the stock O2 sensor is capable of providing wideband readings, the correction table in the ECU to translate this into realistically accurate Lambda figures for AFR measurement is incomplete.
Mazda was only concerned with conversion in closed loop mode, so it is only accurate in the 13.5:1 to 15:1 AFR range. Outside of that it is wildly inaccurate.
3 major things have been changed.
1) Hardware: The data sampling rate. In the original configuration it is only fast enough to capture 3 data set samples.
One typically wants to capture: rpm, throttle position, O2 sensor,ignition advance.
To do this, Dan has used a faster version of the Pic processor on the board.
Also, a faster serial chip has been used to handle the higher data rates.
2) Software interface. The original was designed mainly as a tool to allow one to do diagnostic and repair work on a car. It lacked several useful features, or the ergonomics were not well designed for data logging. This has been upgraded.
Also, the interface is written in Visual Basic 6, and this lacks a wide selection of baud rates for communications. The serial routines have been replaced with other code to support the appropriate data rate to handle the sampling needed.
By the use of the above changes, it became possible to sample at even time intervals ( i.e.: every 1/10 second). By fixing this, it is now possible to log with this tool at the same time as another device, and to combine the results of both sets of logs into a spreadsheet to do graphing of the data.
Previously the time interval was based on the amount of data accumulated. Once a buffer was filled, it dumped to a file. This resulted in no even time base.
3) While the stock O2 sensor is capable of providing wideband readings, the correction table in the ECU to translate this into realistically accurate Lambda figures for AFR measurement is incomplete.
Mazda was only concerned with conversion in closed loop mode, so it is only accurate in the 13.5:1 to 15:1 AFR range. Outside of that it is wildly inaccurate.
As for the data aquisition rate, don't expect 6 parameters at .1 second sampling rates. Dan has told me that 4 is the max he's getting at that rate. I'm writing a dyno program using the CS API, and I'm seeing about the same thing. Also, Dan's program tries to keep constant sampling intervals, but various factors (like your CPU speed, ram, other open programs) can impact how fast the CS can actually sample. I would recommend closing other programs and logging as few parameters possible at a time if you want to log at close to .1 sec intervals.
Edit: Can someone explain what Lambda values represent?
Last edited by Rosco; 09-09-2004 at 12:35 AM.
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