TurboXS is seeking a local RX8 owner (MD/VA area)
12-01-2005, 07:00 PM
#51
Armaan
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Overall on the conservative end with the catback and race pipe I belive the hp increase was at about 21 (Thats if you take the highest hp output from stock against the highest hp output from the catback and race pipe). If you take the lowest hp stock which was (170-171) against the highest pull with the catback and race pipe(205) then you have 34-35hp increases WITH THE CZ OFF. With the cz on i belive the high was 204hp but the torque jumped on one pull. Keep in mind I havent tuned the cz yet its just the map that maurice loaded. I was there for the dyno's today and they did vary a bit. In terms of sound the note it deep right through and no ricey or tinny vibrations. It is loud at wot but I like it overall. I was driving back and crusing at 4k and it was deep but not annoying but if I were driving over 2 hours I would put the silencers in. Also the car feels much faster even on the low end.
12-01-2005, 07:08 PM
#52
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all i have to say is Armaant i hate you! but in reality i'm envious where in Md are you located i might take a ride across bridge to check it out
12-01-2005, 07:16 PM
#53
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lol I'm in northern Va in great falls. 22066. I'm about 20 mins from d.c. and rockville i wouldnt mind meeting up with you sometime if you want to check it out. But the car is probably going in to the body shop on the 10th for a few days to get a dent taken out. Where are you?
12-01-2005, 07:52 PM
#54
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Very interesting results with the exhaust. I'm curious about the variation between dynos runs and the large performance increase (particularly in light of RB's bench data).
12-01-2005, 08:03 PM
#56
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I was wondering about what Racing Beat has on their website. I dont know about the variations on the dyno but i do know that all the conditions were the same(except for the mods). I wasn't expecting very much out of the catback and i was expecting a bit less from the race pipe but I sat there and saw the numbers off each pull so what more can I say. Also nathan said they got similar results from their cars in australia.
12-01-2005, 08:11 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by RA-Eight
Do I smell a turbo kit in the works???
12-01-2005, 08:11 PM
#59
Bummed, but bring on OU!
Originally Posted by Armaant
Overall on the conservative end with the catback and race pipe I belive the hp increase was at about 21 (Thats if you take the highest hp output from stock against the highest hp output from the catback and race pipe). If you take the lowest hp stock which was (170-171) against the highest pull with the catback and race pipe(205) then you have 34-35hp increases WITH THE CZ OFF. With the cz on i belive the high was 204hp but the torque jumped on one pull. Keep in mind I havent tuned the cz yet its just the map that maurice loaded. I was there for the dyno's today and they did vary a bit. In terms of sound the note it deep right through and no ricey or tinny vibrations. It is loud at wot but I like it overall. I was driving back and crusing at 4k and it was deep but not annoying but if I were driving over 2 hours I would put the silencers in. Also the car feels much faster even on the low end.
I'd like to see the before and after runs that have the closest matching coolant temps. But those probably weren't monitored. This, I feel, would be the best comparision as the ignition timing would be the closest between those runs. Too many variables to consider between those runs. The variation lends itself to saying something's a little off.
12-01-2005, 08:12 PM
#60
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Originally Posted by turboxs_nathan
We are not piggybacking anything, so in that sense I agree with you. The zUTEC drives the car 100% of the time with its own injector drivers and its own coil drivers.
Cat-back results = 186 to 190.3hp.
Cat-back + canzoomer = 184hp to 193.4hp
-Nathan
Cat-back results = 186 to 190.3hp.
Cat-back + canzoomer = 184hp to 193.4hp
-Nathan
I probably should have also specified that i consider anything that does not totally replace the stock ECU to be a piggyback... not just Emanage type signal intercept and change systems.
Not trying to knock your system at all here. It sounds quite interesting, actually, and more options/competition is always better.
That being said... how would things like knock sensing and control work now? How about cruise control (which there are problems last time I checked on the Interceptor-X)? How about traction control? If the ECU is running a complex program of varying throttle based on conditions (accel input, wheel slip, knock...) then wouldn't there be issues with these functions/systems if you've pulled ignition and fuel control from the ECU? While the ECU's are different, the RX-8 ECU and the Mustang ECU seem to have very similar functionality and behavior... and with the ties between Ford and Mazda (even on the development level) I really wouldn't be surprised if the RX-8's throttle behaves very similarly.
Back to the MAF issue... IF the RX-8 employs a system similar to the new Mustang then the MAF should be good for quite a bit of horsepower... it's both MAF and MAP. The only reason to replace it would be because it just can't flow enough...
No need to give away trade secrets. Just some thoughts about "piggybacking" vs flashing.
Anyway... looking forward to seeing this product's testing.
When are we going to get dynos for the cat-back?
12-01-2005, 08:51 PM
#61
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Nathan has the dyno results idk if he was planning on posting it here or not. He said he would put it on their website and email to me so once I get them I'll post them here unless he's done so already
12-01-2005, 10:36 PM
#63
Hummm interesting, i'll take it with a grain of salt till i see it, speeking of im in DC for 2 more weeks guys if you willing to do some testing with your racepipe on my car (RB exhaust on it currently) then I'll run it by Ryan and see if he would like to do a sort little tid-bit in RxTuner Magazine.
12-01-2005, 10:44 PM
#64
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I am sitting at home (just finished up tuning the WRX that we had on the dyno after the RX8 and made a quick run to best buy to pick up a PSP, a game, and a movie for my flight to CA tomorrow morning) so the dyno plots will have to be posted by Jermaine tomorrow as i just ran out of time.
Our exhaust system will be well suited to the increased flow of a turbocharged RX8. It is setup with twin 3 inch mufflers and one of the most beautiful Y sections for the mufflers i've ever seen. The boys did a fine job on this one. One of the three inch mufflers that we use in the RX8 Cat-back is similar to the muffler that was on the WRX that followed Armaant on the dyno. That car made 348whp on pump gas, so i'd say that we have more then enough flow to handle anything that a turbo RX8 could dish out.
Do you smell a turbo kit? Yes, I’d say that it’s most likely we’ll eventually offer a complete kit from ECU to tail pipe. Given that I’d turbo a bar-stool, I’d certainly like to see the RX8 get a good dose of boost. I’d like to see something small and drivable, nothing too huge, just looking for a solid 300whp or so without too much fuss. Of course around TurboXS 300whp tends to turn into 450-500 pretty quick so who knows where our RX8 will actually end up. It would be nice to give the RX8 guys an opportunity to run with the Turbo 350z boys. We had one of those on the dyno the other and managed over 500whp on pump gas. Can we do something crazy like that with an RX8? I have no idea, but that’s part of the fun of my job.
Honestly, I’ve read the RB page about exhaust systems just like everyone else. I doubted that we’d see much more then 3-5 hp at the wheels like everyone else in a true A-B test. When the boys at our factory in Australia came back with numbers around 20hp for the full exhaust I was shocked and immediately called BS. I refused to accept these numbers until I’d seen them with my own eyes. Hence my first post on this board.
This was a same day a-b test. We had the car on and off the dyno 3 times as we tested individual parts under nearly identical conditions. It’s as close to real-world as we can make it. I don’t know what else to say. I really can’t speak to the gains or losses that some other manufacturers claim are possible or impossible. I don’t know why RB saw the results they did, but I know what I witnessed. I suspect their desire to keep the noise down on their system lead led to a flow restriction. It’s also possible that they have some serious reversion happening at the Y piece between the two mufflers. We have a great deal more flow in this area (two full three inch pipes brought together in a very smooth Y arrangement) then in any other exhaust system we’ve ever built. It looks beautiful in person and I suspect it has a lot to do with our power increases.
As for coolant temperatures, I didn’t log them directly, but picked a “go point” on the stock gauge. I let the coolant temperature recover to that go-point after every run.
As for variability, the car was equipped with a RB revi intake. It’s not uncommon for aftermarket intakes to induce this type of variation.
Additionally, we ran the car in 5th gear on the dyno. I suspect this car endured more hard use today then it has in its entire lifetime. OEMs are using engine management systems that typically have some self tuning capabilities. It is not uncommon for a car to hunt for the right ignition advance curve and AFR when put on the dyno for the first time. In the case of the RX8 it acted very much like a Subaru in that over the course of 6 dyno runs you could clearly observe it attempting to learn the best settings. Armaant may have also induced some of this variability by running the car on 89 octane. This was not something that I knew prior to the test, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see that when put under a very high load with 89 in the tank the car will hunt around for the right AFR and ignition timing curves. I have a guy with a stock car dropping by next Thursday morning, so with his permission I may test the differences between 89 and 93 on the dyno. I suspect we’ll see a lot less variability with the higher grade fuel. It should also be pointed out that there was far more variability in the stock exhaust plots then there was in the TurboXS exhaust plots.
Lastly, I would point out that we’ve seen these results on two different RX8s on two different types of dynos, on two different continents. I feel very confident in our results. When we get a chance we’ll post the plots for all to see and inspect. There will be some that are going to call BS and I’m fine with that. If any of you are familiar with TurboXS then you know that we focus on products that actually make power both on the dyno and in the real world. I completely understand your skepticism, but am confident that additional testing will prove the worth of our parts. We did 30 dyno runs today in sets of 6 in the US. The boys in Australia followed the same test procedure. With over 60 dyno runs (each topping out at over 150mph) I feel very confident in our results.
Our exhaust system will be well suited to the increased flow of a turbocharged RX8. It is setup with twin 3 inch mufflers and one of the most beautiful Y sections for the mufflers i've ever seen. The boys did a fine job on this one. One of the three inch mufflers that we use in the RX8 Cat-back is similar to the muffler that was on the WRX that followed Armaant on the dyno. That car made 348whp on pump gas, so i'd say that we have more then enough flow to handle anything that a turbo RX8 could dish out.
Do you smell a turbo kit? Yes, I’d say that it’s most likely we’ll eventually offer a complete kit from ECU to tail pipe. Given that I’d turbo a bar-stool, I’d certainly like to see the RX8 get a good dose of boost. I’d like to see something small and drivable, nothing too huge, just looking for a solid 300whp or so without too much fuss. Of course around TurboXS 300whp tends to turn into 450-500 pretty quick so who knows where our RX8 will actually end up. It would be nice to give the RX8 guys an opportunity to run with the Turbo 350z boys. We had one of those on the dyno the other and managed over 500whp on pump gas. Can we do something crazy like that with an RX8? I have no idea, but that’s part of the fun of my job.
Honestly, I’ve read the RB page about exhaust systems just like everyone else. I doubted that we’d see much more then 3-5 hp at the wheels like everyone else in a true A-B test. When the boys at our factory in Australia came back with numbers around 20hp for the full exhaust I was shocked and immediately called BS. I refused to accept these numbers until I’d seen them with my own eyes. Hence my first post on this board.
This was a same day a-b test. We had the car on and off the dyno 3 times as we tested individual parts under nearly identical conditions. It’s as close to real-world as we can make it. I don’t know what else to say. I really can’t speak to the gains or losses that some other manufacturers claim are possible or impossible. I don’t know why RB saw the results they did, but I know what I witnessed. I suspect their desire to keep the noise down on their system lead led to a flow restriction. It’s also possible that they have some serious reversion happening at the Y piece between the two mufflers. We have a great deal more flow in this area (two full three inch pipes brought together in a very smooth Y arrangement) then in any other exhaust system we’ve ever built. It looks beautiful in person and I suspect it has a lot to do with our power increases.
As for coolant temperatures, I didn’t log them directly, but picked a “go point” on the stock gauge. I let the coolant temperature recover to that go-point after every run.
As for variability, the car was equipped with a RB revi intake. It’s not uncommon for aftermarket intakes to induce this type of variation.
Additionally, we ran the car in 5th gear on the dyno. I suspect this car endured more hard use today then it has in its entire lifetime. OEMs are using engine management systems that typically have some self tuning capabilities. It is not uncommon for a car to hunt for the right ignition advance curve and AFR when put on the dyno for the first time. In the case of the RX8 it acted very much like a Subaru in that over the course of 6 dyno runs you could clearly observe it attempting to learn the best settings. Armaant may have also induced some of this variability by running the car on 89 octane. This was not something that I knew prior to the test, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see that when put under a very high load with 89 in the tank the car will hunt around for the right AFR and ignition timing curves. I have a guy with a stock car dropping by next Thursday morning, so with his permission I may test the differences between 89 and 93 on the dyno. I suspect we’ll see a lot less variability with the higher grade fuel. It should also be pointed out that there was far more variability in the stock exhaust plots then there was in the TurboXS exhaust plots.
Lastly, I would point out that we’ve seen these results on two different RX8s on two different types of dynos, on two different continents. I feel very confident in our results. When we get a chance we’ll post the plots for all to see and inspect. There will be some that are going to call BS and I’m fine with that. If any of you are familiar with TurboXS then you know that we focus on products that actually make power both on the dyno and in the real world. I completely understand your skepticism, but am confident that additional testing will prove the worth of our parts. We did 30 dyno runs today in sets of 6 in the US. The boys in Australia followed the same test procedure. With over 60 dyno runs (each topping out at over 150mph) I feel very confident in our results.
12-01-2005, 10:47 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by PoLaK
Hummm interesting, i'll take it with a grain of salt till i see it, speeking of im in DC for 2 more weeks guys if you willing to do some testing with your racepipe on my car (RB exhaust on it currently) then I'll run it by Ryan and see if he would like to do a sort little tid-bit in RxTuner Magazine.
-Nathan
12-01-2005, 10:54 PM
#66
Sounds like fun to me I'll be very surprized if it does make the power ur claiming, not at all claiming sabatoge but im accustom to driving my car on a dyno during testing is this fine as well, i know how to drive/set up on a dyno hell you guys can just gimme a lift and 2 hours and you all can take a lunch brake and I can do it all on my own.
You guys only open Mon-Fri?
You guys only open Mon-Fri?
12-01-2005, 11:04 PM
#67
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Yes we are open Mon-Fri. I'll be back in the office on Monday. We've already got another RX8 (bone stock this time) going on the dyno on Thursday. Monday and Friday both suck for this type of thing, so that leaves Tuesday or Wednesday. Pick your poison. I’ve even got a stock muffler here (if Armaant doesn’t mind) that you could use as a base point of comparison for your RB muffler. We can do all three systems; the RB vs. stock vs. TurboXS. I suspect you’ll be surprised. If nothing else it will provide us with more data then we have at the moment and only cause us to have an exhaust we can’t sell. I’ll say right now that I am not giving another exhaust away though, so after we finish with our testing, you can either purchase it or it will come back off the car to wait for our RX8. I can’t give every guy that’s skeptical a free exhaust or we’d go broke.
-Nathan
-Nathan
12-01-2005, 11:22 PM
#68
No I totally understand, im actually more interested in the race pipe then the catback itself, if I end up purchasing anything it'll be the race pipe.
I'm thinking this 2 base runs with the stock muffler, mark out on the rollers where the rear wheels are so we don't have any deviance there, install RB catback system see what we can do over stock I know that the exhaust here won't do much if anything.
Then put your race pipe on with RB exhaust, 2 more runs, this will be nice for you guys considering most people won't wanna buy the complete system and alot of people on the forum have the RB Cat-Back and would like to see what the pipe and RB's cat can do.
Then finally well do 2 more runs with your catback slapped on and see what it does over stock.
Everything sound copasetic?
If Thursday has no time because the other 8 is there then Wed. is good.
I'm thinking this 2 base runs with the stock muffler, mark out on the rollers where the rear wheels are so we don't have any deviance there, install RB catback system see what we can do over stock I know that the exhaust here won't do much if anything.
Then put your race pipe on with RB exhaust, 2 more runs, this will be nice for you guys considering most people won't wanna buy the complete system and alot of people on the forum have the RB Cat-Back and would like to see what the pipe and RB's cat can do.
Then finally well do 2 more runs with your catback slapped on and see what it does over stock.
Everything sound copasetic?
If Thursday has no time because the other 8 is there then Wed. is good.
12-01-2005, 11:24 PM
#69
Go Texas Longhorns!
Didn't realize your American Test car had the REVi on it. That was for the three sets of dyno pulls? (stock, XS Exhaust, XS Exhaust + Midpipe). That prolly adds another 5whp or so.
Still, nice results.
Still, nice results.
12-01-2005, 11:25 PM
#70
Armaan
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Feel free to use my muffler over there as much as you like. If you need the pipe with the cat let me know and i'll drop it off for as long as you need to use it. Also if you need to borrow my car to test for the day with some of the other 8 owners there let me know. It should be going in for some body work on the 10th but i expect it back by the 15th.
12-01-2005, 11:50 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by brillo
Didn't realize your American Test car had the REVi on it. That was for the three sets of dyno pulls? (stock, XS Exhaust, XS Exhaust + Midpipe). That prolly adds another 5whp or so.
Still, nice results.
Still, nice results.
The revi probably gave me anywhere from 2-5 whp. But since it was on the entire time inculding the stock dyno i dont think it would vary the results any differently thenwith a stock intake. so if it was stock and the hp was 167 then its 170 with the revi. Atleast thats my opinion on it I'm no engineer so I can't predict that it wouldnt have affected the results from the catback and race pipe i just think that you would get the same or very similar gains regardless of intake.
EDIT: I would however, being a customer of Racing Beat like to know a few more details from them on what they did to get their hp numbers for exhausts as many of us have taken the information from their page at face value. I might have looked into the exhaust system earlier rather then intake except i didnt expect such high gains from it.
Last edited by Armaant; 12-01-2005 at 11:53 PM.
12-01-2005, 11:51 PM
#73
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8
agreed
any pics of this exhaust system?
12-01-2005, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PoLaK
No I totally understand, im actually more interested in the race pipe then the catback itself, if I end up purchasing anything it'll be the race pipe.
I'm thinking this 2 base runs with the stock muffler, mark out on the rollers where the rear wheels are so we don't have any deviance there, install RB catback system see what we can do over stock I know that the exhaust here won't do much if anything.
Then put your race pipe on with RB exhaust, 2 more runs, this will be nice for you guys considering most people won't wanna buy the complete system and alot of people on the forum have the RB Cat-Back and would like to see what the pipe and RB's cat can do.
Then finally well do 2 more runs with your catback slapped on and see what it does over stock.
Everything sound copasetic?
If Thursday has no time because the other 8 is there then Wed. is good.
I'm thinking this 2 base runs with the stock muffler, mark out on the rollers where the rear wheels are so we don't have any deviance there, install RB catback system see what we can do over stock I know that the exhaust here won't do much if anything.
Then put your race pipe on with RB exhaust, 2 more runs, this will be nice for you guys considering most people won't wanna buy the complete system and alot of people on the forum have the RB Cat-Back and would like to see what the pipe and RB's cat can do.
Then finally well do 2 more runs with your catback slapped on and see what it does over stock.
Everything sound copasetic?
If Thursday has no time because the other 8 is there then Wed. is good.
-Nathan