w0rm

How do you flash over a locked flash?

I completely understand the want/need to keep commercial tunes from being shared.

It would only be property theft if it was redistributed after I pulled the flash. You can't honestly expect to deliver a product to a customer and tell them they're not allowed to edit it as they see fit(analogy: Coke saying you're not allowed to add rum to their product). I mean, you can request that they not edit it, but there's nothing legally binding them to listening. There's absolutely nothing illegal about changing a product you have purchased for personal use(unless the modification violates other laws).

I fully expect there to be lock-downs and proprietary flashes during the first wave of readers/writers. This is exactly what RB has had with their reflash for however long. After a while though I'd expect to start seeing a lot of open 'free' flashes done by users available to whoever wants them.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You can't. You have to uninstall the locked flash first, or use the device that installed the locked flash in the first place.

Not true at all. Even though it is almost impossible to enforce, you are not allowed to edit registered material without crediting (and compensating) the original owner, unless you fall inside the fair-use laws, which wouldn't apply to a calibration, anyway.
The truth is, its just about not having a tuner's work ganked and then redistributed, denying the original tuner compensation for his work.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

The irony is that everybody is agruing over the idea of directly swapping the maps/tunes from one car to another but a thorough search of MM's posts, and those of other knowledgeable people, over the past few years will give many of us the answers we are seeking. We may not be able to directly swap maps/tunes in the digital domain but we certainly can't be stopped from sharing that info in the "analog" domain. Racing Beat got the ball rolling a couple years ago already........

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

This has been an interesting thread, and well brought up by Lola.

Here is my philosophy.

1. The user should be able to buy a tuning tool that enables them to access the "carburettor jets, vacuum advance spring and static timing advance". This tool might consist of some wrenches & screwdrivers or some electronic hardware and software. The former has been how it always was before electronics. Now there is some obligations on the user to ensure the environmental mandates for emmissions are met. The "smog test" takes care of that aspect, and reflashing shouldn't prevent the operation of the diagnostic tool.

2. If the user puts in a custom tune-up, he/she ought to be able to, at their discretion, prevent someone else plugging in and changing what is in there (i.e. at a dealer service). The tool should give the user the choice to use the "normal" security access to the PCM, or to change it to a tool specific access protocol. However, the tool cannot change the security access software, as this is the IP of Mazda.

3. The tool should not persist the binary image of the flash on disk or other medium. It ought to save it's calibration information in a format that it see fit. If the owner of the tool wishes to share his "jet sizes and timing advance" with a buddy, then he should be able to do that - in one of two ways. (a) He tells his buddy what the settings are, and the buddy enters these settings into his tuning package (whatever it is), or (b) shares the calibration file with his buddy. Obviously for (b) the two tuning packages need to talk the same language. If the writer of the tuning package chooses to make the format of the calibration file proprietry or open source is a matter for the writer to decide.

4. If a tuner puts a tuneup in a users car... Well this depends on if the user has the means to read what is there. Point 2 addresses this issue to a certain extent, but I guess there could be more discussion there.

Another seperate issue is preventing unauthorised access to "shared" calibration files. This is well covered by digital signatres and public key encryption techniques, and is kind of a seperate issue, but could be built into the import/export functionality of the tuning package.

Anyway - a lot of good food for thought. Thankfully, I think I had already thought through the issues and the practical implementations within software, and my product will address them all.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

My point precisely. Thanks,Mark.

tdiddy

I don't think "he" is going to be able to see what the settings are in the AccessPORT in order to tell his buddy. Not unless "he" pays for the PROTuner software and has the password to unlock the map.

w0rm

if you have the binary which the car can understand, I am failing to see how that can be prevented.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Because you can't get the binary.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

jeff... add that $85 option to my bill

lolachampcar

Hymee,
Hurry up for Pete's sake. I WANT it.

Jeff,
Hurry up for Pete's sake. I WANT it too.

I am beginning to sound like some women I have known in the past.
Sorry ladies.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Its not available yet.
Cobb hasn't even "officially" stated the price, though that is what I was given last week.

sosonic

That appears horrible for many RX-8 owners.

However, I'm a bit confused. In your earlier statements you seem to indicate that you could not edit a Cobb flash. Now you are saying the PCM is "locked" too. I'm trying to clarify the extent of all the locking down that is being done.

In this instance you are stating the Cobb AP flash can't be re-flashed by any other devices (including by the dealer) once it is on.


However, do you have the option of locking or NOT locking your PCM?

I think "forced" to and given the "option" is a pretty big difference. Maybe a HUGE difference between re-flashing options.


Can I leave my PCM "unlocked", for example, and then choose to just protect my tuner settings?

This way, a 3rd party re-flasher could read my flash from off my PCM or re-flash my PCM, but not my tune settings/map edits.


This seems like a product GOTCHA.

Why would not the $85 dollar tuner software not let me know the settings that I changed, be able to save those setting, or allow those settings to be shared if "unlocked"?

Why do I have to pay for the $1,500 dollar Pro-tuner software, if I'm only trying to edit settings on my 1 car and give people information about my settings?

mysql

I only have a general idea of what the cobb software does, so I might be off on some of this - but this is how I understand it:


The PCM has security measures built in that all the reflashers are defeating. It sounds like the cobb unit is able to modify the security measure so that it has it's own new key. Thus even Mazda's reflasher can no longer flash the pcm since it now expects a different unlock key.

It's an option, it isn't required.


If you buy the $85 software, you can make your own maps and upload it to your own car.


You wouldn't.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Jeff: does the $85 software access all the same parameters as the Protuner software? Or is there a limited # of things that you can do??

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The $85 software accesses all the same parameters as the pro package.

SolarYellow510

As far as "should" and "shouldn't" be able to do, anyone should be able to write any contract he wants with his customers, subject to applicable law, and if the customers agree to it, they are bound by it.

Cobb has taken steps to protect their significant investment in developing a range of tunes that come loaded in the AP. If you want a different program than they are offering, do business with a different service provider. Don't condemn them for their choices, which are well proven over years of doing business.

PUR NRG

Engine maps are software. As such you can take software development contracts as a direct example of what people are doing now. Here are the main contract options:
1. Who owns the code.
2. Who owns distribution rights.

"Locked" maps are the equivalent of saying the developer owns the map and grants the customer a single-use license. The customer may not distribute or alter the map. Most commercial software follows this model.

"Open" maps are the equivalent of saying the customer owns the map and can distribute or modify as they see fit. Most custom software follows this model.

Finally, what Jeff has done with his tutorials has been like saying, "this is the algorithm I used, and the programming methodology. It's up to you to write code that follows what I said."

All of this is common industry standard stuff in the software development world. Why is it so hard to understand when it comes to creating engine maps?
________
Lovely Wendie99

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Actually, the Cobb tunes will probably come unlocked.
Right now, the only tunes that would come shipped with the AP would be mine.

Because everyone wants something for nothing.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

...and if you vote properly in November you can get just that!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

No matter how you vote, you will get nothing for everything.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

We speak the truth while the electorate prefer philosophical contradictions.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

a) Yes, in the past for the subie guys they give you their base maps for editing if you buy their software (you can actually just grab them from the website and open them with the software). The only maps that are "locked" would be maps made by a tuner with the PROTuner software (if they choose to do so). If anyone has a problem with that - find a different tuner that doesn't lock his maps. Plain and simple....

b) They lock out the PCM from reflashing for one very simple reason - If not, some boob at the dealership could go and reflash over your Cobb flash without you knowing it. Suppose your running FI and they would do this - it would be instant KABOOM!! Locking the pcm from a reflash is probably the smartest thing you can do to safegaurd your car.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

^^ word.

w0rm

As mentioned earlier, it's not intellectual property theft to modify software you have purchased for personal use. Software EULAs are not legally binding- they have never been tested in court. There's a reason for this, nobody wants to be the one to set precedent and likely invalidate any scare tactics EULAs may have.

On the comment that everyone wants something for nothing:
Keep in mind, this is about modification, not distribution. The end user has already paid for the map and it's running on their hardware.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The end user has NOT paid for the map. They have paid for the use of the map. That use is restricted and to maintain that restriction, it is locked.