zoom44

thats just wrong- you have modified how my engine works. just as if you took a wrench and screwdriver to it. all the changes are mine.

not sure this is clear yet- if i have a tune put in my car by a Pro Tuner user that is locked and i decide to get the 85 package and tweak some things later(i buy my own wrench) i wont be able to read that locked pro-tuner tune? the street tuner package wont read that protuner locked file?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

The tuner can choose to lock the ProTuner map or not lock the ProTuner map.... its soley up to the tuner. If he wants to lock it, its his decision and if you don't like that you can go to someone else.

Its simple business...

staticlag

The problem is that a tune is a set of instructions.

Its not a idea, its not a design, therefore it can not be protected.

So if I independently created a flash exactly like RB's, would it be illegal for me to market it because it was exactly the same? Do they all of a sudden own those instructions and that no one can come up with anything remotely close to them?

For that matter, why is it that we are reading the Mazda OEM flash at all? By the theories of "intellectual property" we have already stolen Mazda's flash as a baseline for whatever changes we choose to make. Why don't we pay Mazda some fee everyime we use their flash to build off of?

To the tuners that want protection: tough luck guys.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

The tuners are paying a premium to buy the tuning software - they need to make that money back. If they feel they need to protect their maps in order to get there money back - then thats there decision to make and the consumers choice to make. They also use protected tunes as an incentive to buy the AccessPort from them and not a competitor or Cobb themselves.

Jeff for instance is doing this very thing. If you buy from him, its the same price as from Cobb but you get his maps in addition to Cobb's maps. Thats the incentive he has to offer to buy from him and not someone else in addition to future tuning services. You can argue the tuners will be losing money by not protecting their tune and everyone stealing it, or you can argue they can lose money by protecting the tune because nobody will go there... at the end, its up to the consumer and seller to make the decisions that work best for them.

How many people out there have aftermarket engine management and no way to tune it? Racing Beat Flash - not tuneable. Pettit flashes - not tuneable. The Greddy turbo kit came with maps password protected. Where's the beef with those companies? Do you think Mazsport would be sharing their tunes as open as they are if they knew the tunes could be easily used by a generic comeptitor? No, they know the tunes aren't worth much in the open market because you have to buy their hardware from them to use it... its a way of locking their tune up front.

This is not about all this **** about intellectual property, it comes down to everyone is in a business and needs to do what they feel is necessary to stay in business.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

No, you changed how your engine works. You just did it with a medicine for which I will not give you the recipe.

You will have to start from scratch. The ProTune will still be in your AP, so you can always go back to it after you are done screwing around.

A CD of music is just a set of instructions. It simply sets what voltage to a digital to analog converter produces.

It would only be illegal if you had access to the actual RB data. If you simply created your own flash that produced the same result, you have no legal obligation.
Now, a judge might look at you sideways if, somehow, the data turned up exactly the same...

Cobb has avoided violating that in a technical way. Since the flash tool doesn't actually use Mazda's code - it just looks at it - they have just provided the tool.
The end tuner also is just changing a portion of the code and only selling the part they changed, not the part that they leave alone.

Tough luck for you. Do it yourself.

tdiddy

I think if the tuner wants to lock the map they have that right. If the consumer doesn't like it, then get another tuner.

I just wish I knew how to tune.

zoom44

no they dont- they dont have the right to put a locked cover on my carb or my throttle body or my distributor. ill buy the tools myself and then either tune it myself with the help of some freinds or pay a reputable shop to use my tools. i wont ever buy a "tune" from a "pro-tuner" if thats what they try to do.

and this is what i was saying before-

the whole thing should be open from the purchase of the car. just as it was prior to computers controlling things.

the tools should be widely available and the owner should have the choice of buying the wrenches himself or going to a shop who already has the wrenches and have them do the job.

and that shop isnt allowed to put covers over everything so i cant get to it myself later or move to a different shop. he also cant force me to undo his work and start over when i go somewhere else.

tdiddy

The tuner didn't put the locked flash on your car. You did. The tuner just gave you the locked flash to do with what you wish.

Isn't that what I said, "If you don't like it then get another tuner or tune it yourself"?

w0rm

We can discuss this till we're all blue in the face. The end result is you're either selling a service(the 8 week period) or a product(the flash) or both.

Services are pretty straight forward. A user pays for a portion of your time, when that time is up you refuse service. After this 'contract' is up obligations to both parties are invalid. Service contracts work both ways. A product you sell to a customer becomes theirs. They are free to do with it as they please as long as it does not infringe on your profits(etc redistributing, using as their own work, public display). There is no legal protection against private use(including modification) of a product you have sold the customer.

You can claim you're selling both a service and a product(which is where EULAs come into play) but to enjoy the protections of both, the very same protections go both ways. If you wanted to keep this only as a service it would require at the end of the 8 week period the user removes the flash from their car. Intellectual property issues so often get muddled in with software licensing or 'theft' it gets old. Unfortunately I've got a lot of experience in this regard and I try to understand both the seller and the customer. I just keep seeing this statement that I'm not allowed to edit my property after a purchase for no good reason and it drives me nuts. I'm not wanting to redistribute anything, I just want full access to my hardware AND software.

I'm trying very hard to make this clear that I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers- I just want to explain that there's no legal backing here.

there's nothing legally stopping anyone from reading the results of changes off the car's computer and replicating them in their own flash. MM, your analogy earlier was a music cd.. this is a cover band.

zoom44

actually i asked them to tune my car and they used their wrenches to do it. while they were at it they put locked covers over everything they did with special bolts they have devised that can only be opened with their special wrench. if i want to work on it myself or have someone else work on it in the future i have to get those covers off and the only way to do that is to remove all the changes i paid for in the first place.

yes you did and thats what im advocatiing- dont ever go to someone who tries to put their locks on your hood.

tdiddy

Actually, I agree with you. I already purchased an AP and when the tuning software is available I will have a tuner create me a tune that I own and CAN edit. Until then, I get a basemap that I can run on my car included with the device for free. I would not have made the same decision if I had to pay for the locked basemap. I would have just waited until the AP with the tuning software was available and worked with a tuner at that time.

lolachampcar

One small correction (or two)-
RB flash open and tunable.
Pettit flash open and tunable.

lolachampcar

I will post the dyno, data logger and fuel maps Before and After for the normally aspirated one tuning pass we did no later than tomorrow. The whole reason for NaarLeven bringing his car in was so we could post the whole process on the forum and try to demystify the whole tuning process.

lolachampcar

To everyone-
Thanks for all the spirited dialog. I really wanted to have an in depth conversation in front of those building tools so that they could make informed decisions about if and how they implement protection. I think you gave them a large bone to chew on.

sosonic

I think this was good too, as different points of views were presented.

From a "user" perspective....

1. It would be nice if locking the PCM is an option and not "forced".

2. Locking map edits/tunes settings should be an option.

Those that want to share should be allowed to do so and those that do not want to should have some protection.

3. Would like to see the locking/unlocking of the PCM and locking/unlocking of map edits/tunes as separate features. Meaning you could do one, the other, or both.

4. Would like to see the re-flasher and tuner software set for international use. Meaning it can work with JDM, US, Europe, Canada, etc... flashes.

A good case in point, there is a lot of international collaboration and interaction at this forum.

5. Logging will obviously be important. "Before" and "After" will be important. Maybe a "virtual dyno" while your are at it too...

6. Obviously "ease of use", "helpfulness", "price", instructions, user interface, etc... will be important considerations.

It is not to say that a product will be "perfect", because it will obviously not be in the real world. But there is nothing wrong with a "wish list", either.

Kane

iTrader: (1)

Virtual Dyno is covered.

Logging is a big key - without data you cannot derive any information

sosonic

You will definitely have a hand in every pot.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

With a third (fourth) party tool.

mysql

think of it this way - you'll be able to buy your cobb reflasher from many different sources. What Jeff is doing is making a custom map that works for FI. He's charging you the same as you'd pay anywhere else for the reflasher, but he's giving you value added incentive to buy from him by providing function FI maps.

If it was unlocked, only one person need buy from him, then the maps float around free online.

You can of course not bother with what Jeff provides and go elsewhere. I don't really see the conflict.

PUR NRG

Since what we are talking about here is software, let's paint it this way:
You own a computer. That's hardware. Microsoft makes a program called Flight Simulator you can install on your hardware that changes how it functions (adds more capability). Microsoft also sells Visual Studio, which allows you to write your own code. No one has the expectation that Microsoft will give you a copy of the Flight Simulator code so you can tweak it how you like. There are ways to tweak it of course, but none are sanctioned by Microsoft. Your purchase of Flight Simulator gives you a single use license. You don't own the code. If Microsoft decides to discontinue producing Flight Simulator, you don't have the option of tweaking the source code yourself.

This is standard software industry practice. Yes there is something called open source, but that doesn't mean all closed source code is suddenly wrong.
________
Lovely Wendie

sosonic

The problem with your analogy is Mazda owns the source code.

The Pro-Tuner would be like an IT person configuring software on your computer. Is the "configuration changes/setup" something you are not allowed to change on your own computer?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

mm,

is the cobb based on the u flash????

and to all. it is all about how usable the the single tuner software is.. i have seen stuff in the past that is very user friendly..

some not so much.. apples, and oranges...

beers

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The "U" flash is the base that is included in the current AccessPORT firmware.

The software is NOT beginner friendly, though it is user friendly.
That is why I'm not particularly engaging this whole discussion too seriously.
There are a very few people that I think will understand 1/4 of the stuff to which software like this gives them access.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

thanks for the u flash update...

and the other part, that is where the money is.. a simple click, click tuning deal is not what this is..

or is it out right now, or in the near future..

people this is good good stuff, but you have to have the knowledge. some have it, most do not..


just an observation..

beers

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Any "point-n-click" tuning solution that claims to have this magnitude of adjustability will not deliver as promised.
You have to know what you are looking at.

For instance, the '04 has three main 3D fuel maps that are also speed-dependent.
Those are, in turn, modified by a pair of "closed-loop" maps and a series of temperature and other conditional maps, each with their own set of lambda targets.
Simply saying "I want 12:1 at 5500 RPM and 200 g/sec of airflow" will lead you to modify 5 or more maps that are all interdependent in not so obvious ways.
Then, there is a Ve map on top of that and the fuel trims, MAF calibration, injector scaling and latency, etc...