Tuning Company’s Philosophies, One Person’s Perspective
02-26-2008, 01:50 PM
#26
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
To a degree I understand both perspectives but I tend to lean toward Zoom's view. My philosophy(and that which I use to guide my actions with BHR), which has been a point of contention with at least one other forum vendor, is 1) There are no secrets in this business and to try and "protect" them is a futile effort, and, 2) All this modding nonsense STILL comes down to human relationships and people are not necessarily paying for the exact tune as much as they are for the ease-of-mind that comes with knowing a reliable person did the tune in the first place. People can hack all they want into a PCM but that tune will still only apply to THAT car and THAT driver. When we tune, so much of what we are doing is making a particular driver's personal experience with their car one that they will enjoy and with which they will be comfortable. Look at what is necessary in leagues like NASCAR. Same track, same car but different drivers like different suspension and engine tunes.
BTW, patenting one's ideas and protecting perceived "secrets" are two different things. To patent/copyright a particular tune might be an interesting concept to argue about from many different angles.
BTW, patenting one's ideas and protecting perceived "secrets" are two different things. To patent/copyright a particular tune might be an interesting concept to argue about from many different angles.
I am assembling my army as we speak.
02-26-2008, 06:22 PM
#30
Vote with your wallet.
If you want unlocked everything; then be willing to buy the tools that are transparent to you. Capitalism FTW.
The tune itself is not a product; it is a service - just like paying a mechanic to do your carb work for you. Additionally, by looking at the vehicles log data; reverse engineering a tune is not hard. But like Greddy's base tune; locking is also used as an electronic warranty sticker. If you remove the sticker then you are SOL.
Otherwise; people would monkey with the tune; break the car; re-flash the stock tune and cry for free help.
If you want unlocked everything; then be willing to buy the tools that are transparent to you. Capitalism FTW.
The tune itself is not a product; it is a service - just like paying a mechanic to do your carb work for you. Additionally, by looking at the vehicles log data; reverse engineering a tune is not hard. But like Greddy's base tune; locking is also used as an electronic warranty sticker. If you remove the sticker then you are SOL.
Otherwise; people would monkey with the tune; break the car; re-flash the stock tune and cry for free help.
I agree, the customer already PAID the Pro-Tuner for the tune service. Not for the Pro-Tuner to lock up his PCM forever.
For example- After a Pro-Tuner installs an FI kit on my car, are you saying I'm not allowed to touch it anymore? Because the FI kit install "style" is now the work of the Pro-Tuner that forevermore can't be modified?
Furthermore, the basis of tunes are MAZDA's flash. The Pro-Tuner did not create the flash. He is modifying settings on MAZDA's flash.
People are often paying the Pro-Tuner for a tune to match their installed FI kit. The 2 are often done together and it was the case that Pro-Tuner's had the tool to do it. The Pro-Tuner is usually paid for his expertise at "marrying" the FI kit and tune. Which by it's nature makes it car specific and not something you are going to install on another car.
However, with a "publicly" available re-flasher you are talking about situations where RX-8 owners would be modifying their own settings. The regular RX-8 owner would be the tuner and should have the right to modify existing setting on the PCM of HIS car that he PAID for. Not, be locked out of the PCM of his own car. Just like you would not prevent him from looking under the hood and modifying his own engine that he PAID for.
Knowledge on HOW to TUNE is not something that is "owned" by any Pro-Tuner. A Pro-Tuner can't try to say that he wants to prevent other people from learning and knowing how to tune their car. Just like it would not make any sense for a Pro-Tuner to demand FI installation instructions be burned to "protect their secrets".
The RX-8 owner is also responsible for his actions and the actions of mechanics or Pro-Tuners that he asked to work on his car. If an RX-8 owner puts an FI kit on his car, upgrades his ignition, or reflash's his PCM and something goes wrong than the dealer does not have to respect the warranty. So, RX-8 owners know not to cry for "free" help after they have made changes.
I do think the "ultimate vote" will be with the wallets of RX-8 owners. Re-flashing tools and software that are excessively restrictive will NOT be bought or become popular.
Last edited by sosonic; 02-26-2008 at 06:57 PM.
02-26-2008, 06:41 PM
#32
So you, the tuner are going into Mazda's EMS, changing Mazda's tune that they spent money/time creating. Should Mazda allow you to do this? Should Mazda charge you to use there existing maps as a base?
So what is the difference between somebody going in and changing someones tune they paid to have done to there car?
What makes this issue different? Should Mazda be asking this same question?
So what is the difference between somebody going in and changing someones tune they paid to have done to there car?
What makes this issue different? Should Mazda be asking this same question?
02-26-2008, 06:42 PM
#33
Much ado about nothing.
I disagree. A situation will exist that there will be multiple competing ECU reflashing and tuning solutions.
I'm sure one re-flashing solution for the RX-8 will be more popular than others.
And, there will be reasons why a certain re-flashing and tuning solution will have greater market share than the others.
Last edited by sosonic; 02-26-2008 at 06:47 PM.
02-26-2008, 06:56 PM
#35
02-26-2008, 07:47 PM
#36
I am still stuck on the idea of finding a middle ground where both sides get most of what they want or need. I'm stupid like that; I just think the best solution has something for everyone.
How about honoring a No Read in the firmware and leaving the PCM security feature alone so any tool can read the file. The customer can then discuss the inclusion or exclusion of the no read with his/her tuner in advanced to negotiate exactly what they are purchasing. This would allow compatibility of three of the four tools being discussed currently. The forth would be Cobb and I am assuming all of their PCM work results in a locked down PCM. I base this on the "even the dealer can not reflash the PCM" comment elsewhere on the forum and not first hand knowledge. Does anyone know if the Cobb solution offers a non-locked PCM so all tools would have access?
With the approach above, your tuner could use product X to generate the tuned file and the customer could use X, Y or Z to view and modify the tune. Everyone gets to pick their tools of choice and access where granted is allowed across tool platforms.
How about honoring a No Read in the firmware and leaving the PCM security feature alone so any tool can read the file. The customer can then discuss the inclusion or exclusion of the no read with his/her tuner in advanced to negotiate exactly what they are purchasing. This would allow compatibility of three of the four tools being discussed currently. The forth would be Cobb and I am assuming all of their PCM work results in a locked down PCM. I base this on the "even the dealer can not reflash the PCM" comment elsewhere on the forum and not first hand knowledge. Does anyone know if the Cobb solution offers a non-locked PCM so all tools would have access?
With the approach above, your tuner could use product X to generate the tuned file and the customer could use X, Y or Z to view and modify the tune. Everyone gets to pick their tools of choice and access where granted is allowed across tool platforms.
02-26-2008, 08:01 PM
#37
This is how it works:
You buy the AP. It comes with a bunch of locked tunes.
You use one if you like.
If you don't, you are more than welcome to buy the software and start from scratch on your own. Its only $85.
I don't think I can explain it any easier than that.
No one is being "locked-out" of their PCM. Just out of the custom tune.
If you don't like that, you unload it and start over own your own.
You buy the AP. It comes with a bunch of locked tunes.
You use one if you like.
If you don't, you are more than welcome to buy the software and start from scratch on your own. Its only $85.
I don't think I can explain it any easier than that.
No one is being "locked-out" of their PCM. Just out of the custom tune.
If you don't like that, you unload it and start over own your own.
02-26-2008, 08:02 PM
#38
I don't think it is worth the effort - if you can read the log from the engine - you can read the tune.
Tuners today get paid by people changing the VE curve of the engine and needing it modified. That is the service portion that I was referring to. Now the shallow end of the gene pool is going to want to be able to move the tune from one to another...which is bad in so far as each engine has a unique VE curve and it is dangerous to play with it; most especially in FI applications.
Once I get my harness back I will be better able to demonstrate as I have a few turbocharged log files from 2 engines... you would think they are the same; but we shall see just how different they are.
Tuners today get paid by people changing the VE curve of the engine and needing it modified. That is the service portion that I was referring to. Now the shallow end of the gene pool is going to want to be able to move the tune from one to another...which is bad in so far as each engine has a unique VE curve and it is dangerous to play with it; most especially in FI applications.
Once I get my harness back I will be better able to demonstrate as I have a few turbocharged log files from 2 engines... you would think they are the same; but we shall see just how different they are.
02-26-2008, 09:12 PM
#39
RotoRocks Powered
I believe one thing: If I, as a pro tuner who offers 1 on 1 tuning sessions uniquely tailored to each vehicle, I should allow the customer the ability to modify this tune at will after I am done.
It is just as providing consulting services in the IT business:
You come in, you write your code. Once done, client gets the binaries (or whatever) and the source code. You sign a nondisclosure agreement and go home.
Once your services are done, they can do with it, what they please.
Another side of it is if you are selling a "packaged" solution. It provides a client with certain predefined functionality, and has a set price tag. nothing more, nothing less. But then it is very similar to what is happening here.
What was the point of this discussion anyway?
It is just as providing consulting services in the IT business:
You come in, you write your code. Once done, client gets the binaries (or whatever) and the source code. You sign a nondisclosure agreement and go home.
Once your services are done, they can do with it, what they please.
Another side of it is if you are selling a "packaged" solution. It provides a client with certain predefined functionality, and has a set price tag. nothing more, nothing less. But then it is very similar to what is happening here.
What was the point of this discussion anyway?
02-26-2008, 11:35 PM
#41
I believe one thing: If I, as a pro tuner who offers 1 on 1 tuning sessions uniquely tailored to each vehicle, I should allow the customer the ability to modify this tune at will after I am done.
It is just as providing consulting services in the IT business:
You come in, you write your code. Once done, client gets the binaries (or whatever) and the source code. You sign a nondisclosure agreement and go home.
Once your services are done, they can do with it, what they please.
Another side of it is if you are selling a "packaged" solution. It provides a client with certain predefined functionality, and has a set price tag. nothing more, nothing less. But then it is very similar to what is happening here.
What was the point of this discussion anyway?
It is just as providing consulting services in the IT business:
You come in, you write your code. Once done, client gets the binaries (or whatever) and the source code. You sign a nondisclosure agreement and go home.
Once your services are done, they can do with it, what they please.
Another side of it is if you are selling a "packaged" solution. It provides a client with certain predefined functionality, and has a set price tag. nothing more, nothing less. But then it is very similar to what is happening here.
What was the point of this discussion anyway?
The point is, should tuning tool companies lock PCMs preventing other tool companies from viewing the file (or even replacing it for that matter) or should leave the PCM lock alone so any tool company’s tools can read the file?
If the PCM is left open, should the tool companies honor a no read in the file to prevent unauthorized access?
Is it a good thing for one tool company to lock your PCM so other tool companies can not gain access to it? Just think, you buy your tune from a Cobb guy and do not buy the $800 widget to go with it. If you want to change the PCM file for any reason, you are screwed if the darn thing is locked. A Dude, R&D or Hymee tool can not help you. You have to go back to your tuner or call Cobb for a solution. Good for Cobb and the tuner but maybe not so good for the owner.
02-26-2008, 11:43 PM
#42
This is how it works:
You buy the AP. It comes with a bunch of locked tunes.
You use one if you like.
If you don't, you are more than welcome to buy the software and start from scratch on your own. Its only $85.
I don't think I can explain it any easier than that.
No one is being "locked-out" of their PCM. Just out of the custom tune.
If you don't like that, you unload it and start over own your own.
You buy the AP. It comes with a bunch of locked tunes.
You use one if you like.
If you don't, you are more than welcome to buy the software and start from scratch on your own. Its only $85.
I don't think I can explain it any easier than that.
No one is being "locked-out" of their PCM. Just out of the custom tune.
If you don't like that, you unload it and start over own your own.
You spend $85 and you get Cobb editing software to generate your own files?
Did I read you correctly? I thought it was a lot more than that if you wanted to use Cobb to do your own tuning?
So, Cobb puts a locked tune on my PCM and the H R&D can read it right back off because "no one is being "locked-out" of their PCM"? How can this be if the dealer can not reflash your PCM? Is it not fair to assume that, if a dealer can not relash the PCM then the H R&D can not as well? What am I missing here?
02-27-2008, 08:55 AM
#43
You spend $695 for a Cobb widget and you get a bunch of tunes.
You spend $85 and you get Cobb editing software to generate your own files.
That's the price of the AccessTUNE - Race software.
While the Cobb is installed, the file is locked. You can retrieve codes and such, but you cannot read the ROM. If you want to change the tune with the Cobb, you remove the tune that you flashed in and then create your own from scratch with the software.
If you want to tune with a different piece of software, you uninstall the Cobb and do as you wish.
Installing a provided tune with the Cobb and then reading it out with the H R&D will not be possible.
You spend $85 and you get Cobb editing software to generate your own files.
That's the price of the AccessTUNE - Race software.
While the Cobb is installed, the file is locked. You can retrieve codes and such, but you cannot read the ROM. If you want to change the tune with the Cobb, you remove the tune that you flashed in and then create your own from scratch with the software.
If you want to tune with a different piece of software, you uninstall the Cobb and do as you wish.
Installing a provided tune with the Cobb and then reading it out with the H R&D will not be possible.
02-27-2008, 09:03 AM
#44
That makes perfect sense. I thought the Cobb tuning software was something like $1500 not $85. At that price, it is affordable to an average guy.
Sign me up. When can I get mine?
Sign me up. When can I get mine?
02-27-2008, 09:56 AM
#47
I'm just interested in working with one car so the hand held thing and the one VIN software seat would suit me just fine. I do not even need any tuned files as I already have a good idea what I want to do.
02-27-2008, 10:29 AM
#48
It also cannot edit files created with the PRO version.
So I would get access to all the tables and stuff you have been talking about but only for one VIN for that $85? If I were a tuning shop and wanted to use the software to push stuff on a bunch of cars, then I would be obliged to buy the $1500 package. Is that an accurate assessment?
The software is not available yet for retail - only the AP itself is available. They are suggesting that the software will be available next week, but I wouldn't be shipping orders received until after then, anyway.
02-27-2008, 12:16 PM
#49
PUSHER ROBOT
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I'm a little confused about how COBB locks the flash.
What stops a third party reader from downloading the flash once it's loaded into a car? Is it not a standard binary file?
Here's what I'm wondering. You get SuperTuned flash or whatever, locked to Cobb. It's a binary file. The Cobb flasher uploads this to the car.
If you use Cobb's AP to pull the file, it will tell you it cannot be edited. What about if I pull the flash off using another ODB2 reader + software?
What I'm not getting is how can cobb protect firmware on the car without seriously changing how the car reads the firmware? I'm guessing it's just some extra memory addressing that tells the software not to allow editing?
Can the Pro version edit the 'locked' files?
What stops a third party reader from downloading the flash once it's loaded into a car? Is it not a standard binary file?
Here's what I'm wondering. You get SuperTuned flash or whatever, locked to Cobb. It's a binary file. The Cobb flasher uploads this to the car.
If you use Cobb's AP to pull the file, it will tell you it cannot be edited. What about if I pull the flash off using another ODB2 reader + software?
What I'm not getting is how can cobb protect firmware on the car without seriously changing how the car reads the firmware? I'm guessing it's just some extra memory addressing that tells the software not to allow editing?
Can the Pro version edit the 'locked' files?
02-27-2008, 12:30 PM
#50
Here's what I'm wondering. You get SuperTuned flash or whatever, locked to Cobb. It's a binary file. The Cobb flasher uploads this to the car.
If you use Cobb's AP to pull the file, it will tell you it cannot be edited. What about if I pull the flash off using another ODB2 reader + software?
If you use Cobb's AP to pull the file, it will tell you it cannot be edited. What about if I pull the flash off using another ODB2 reader + software?
Only if you have the key.