Racing Beat Arguement
12-17-2005, 03:14 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by r0tor
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...6&page=2&pp=15
Jim Langer tells the world Borla was full of crap about their 8hp gain because they could only make 4hp without any mufflers.... why would you even bring up testing involving no mufflers unless you are trying to say there is no more then 4hp tied up in mufflers?
Not only was his move completely classless attacking another company in their own thread, but their claims were only ever backed by the "we are Racing Beat - believe us" philosophy.
I'd like to hear his take now that Borla is only among a half of dozen manufacturers that have demonstrated making more then 4 hp....
Jim Langer tells the world Borla was full of crap about their 8hp gain because they could only make 4hp without any mufflers.... why would you even bring up testing involving no mufflers unless you are trying to say there is no more then 4hp tied up in mufflers?
Not only was his move completely classless attacking another company in their own thread, but their claims were only ever backed by the "we are Racing Beat - believe us" philosophy.
I'd like to hear his take now that Borla is only among a half of dozen manufacturers that have demonstrated making more then 4 hp....
"During the prototyping of our RX-8 exhaust, we kept hearing claims of rather large HP gains from other aftermarket exhaust systems. Since we were not observing gains anywhere near some of these claims, we decided to obtain two of these systems for our own reference. One of the systems performed as expected and produced around 3 HP, as did the RB prototype unit. However, the other system did not fare as well and actually produced less power than stock!
Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. Aftermarket manufacturers test products using various methods, and as you can see the results can vary!
It has been our recent experience with normally-aspirated Mazda applications that significant HP gains from an aftermarket exhaust system are hard to obtain. Mazda is simply doing a very good job with their exhaust systems! In today's horsepower hungry marketplace, it is unlikely that a significant amount of horsepower would be left behind in an ineffective OEM exhaust design. But hey, that's just our opinion!"
I highlighted the word "we" which means they are using the data from their own tests. That's fair. They also state that testing methods and results can vary. Yes they can. Some people don't understand that. Finally they stated that this is all their opinion. I don't see them claiming it is all gospel. They repoprt what they see and that's it and they don't bash the competition based on different testing methods. Can't expect more than that.
12-17-2005, 03:22 PM
#102
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Originally Posted by Fanman
They don't claim their clutches are made for high hp applications. That is a fact. I called them to order it, and when i described what I was going to do (FI), they recommended to me not to buy their clutch system. Again, they did the honest thing, they didn't claim it could run 400 hp.
I have their suspension package & I love it. You put Konis on there with their springs & sway bars, and you have a setup that would be just as good as say a Mazdaspeed setup, or pretty much any Tein setup.
Overly expensive compared to who ? Is their catback exhaust multitudes drastically more expensive then the other exhausts on the market ? No. Are their springs, No. Look at the price of their components they are very competitive. Compare it to say a Mazdaspeed and it looks even more competitive (though MS makes very good product).
I have their suspension package & I love it. You put Konis on there with their springs & sway bars, and you have a setup that would be just as good as say a Mazdaspeed setup, or pretty much any Tein setup.
Overly expensive compared to who ? Is their catback exhaust multitudes drastically more expensive then the other exhausts on the market ? No. Are their springs, No. Look at the price of their components they are very competitive. Compare it to say a Mazdaspeed and it looks even more competitive (though MS makes very good product).
12-17-2005, 03:25 PM
#103
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OH YEAH!!!! YOUR MAMMA. sorry personally i only know 1 person with a racing beat product and that is a exhaust for an fd and its kinda ugly and very loud. but i'm kinda dissapointed with mild numbers but oh well i've heard alot of people happy with quality so i say buy what you want
12-17-2005, 05:19 PM
#104
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rOtor or prOber or whatever your name is, thank you so very much for providing that thread which provided more excellent examples of the outstanding professionalism of Jim Langer of Racing Beat.
DdUB, all the best with your apparent mission in life. You're young and that's a good thing, allowing you much time to find some other things to dedicate time and effort toward. Your tone seems to be changing even right here in this thread.
Much Respect!
DdUB, all the best with your apparent mission in life. You're young and that's a good thing, allowing you much time to find some other things to dedicate time and effort toward. Your tone seems to be changing even right here in this thread.
Much Respect!
12-17-2005, 05:25 PM
#105
Originally Posted by dDuB
My biggest issue is with their exhaust systems. ...
Their exhausts are very mild. They are mild in sound and performance overall. I realize on the rx8 there is not much to be had as far as the catback in performance increase, but RB still seems to be in the lower end, by very little but still the lower end. My BIGGEST issue is their exhaust systems are heavy! The dual catback is actually heavier than stock. I'm not sure how they pull this off to be honest? So the little gain in hp performance + increase weight = no performance gain at all in my view. The quality, however, is very good and should last a long long time.
...
Also, RB exhausts are generally ver mild in sound due to mufflers that will keep sound to a minimum, but at the same time hinder some performance a tad. Some people prefer the quiet sound over the 1-2hp gain of more free flowing, some don't, that's a choice obviously.
As far as non-exhaust components go... Their flywheels are good units, I admit that. I run the aluminum RB flywheel on my 2nd gen rx7, however the reason I do is because no other company provides an aluminum flywheel for the non-turbo transmission 2nd gen unfortunately. The downside to their flywheels, though, is the high cost. Just like everything at RB the cost is much much higher than most companies. I want to know why honestly. Many other companies, for flywheels, such as ACT do the same R&D, have the same weight flywheel, provide the same durability, but provide it at a much lower cost. What makes RB units so special? As long as people buy it, though, they will sell it obviously.
Their clutches are not so top-notch. The reviews I've read about their clutches are that they cannot handle huge amounts of power. ...
Suspension next? The sway bars they sell are nice, but they are not the best. RB seems to like to stay mild with everything. The RB sway bars for the 2nd gen rx7, for example, are barely better than TII, and negligible compared to the vert sway bars. Both which can be bought used for very cheap. On the rx8 I have not read many reviews, but I will assume they are mild again. I have however checked the sizing on it and they seem to be smaller than other optoins out there. Their springs are nice and comfortable, but do not perform the best. The springs they develop and sell seem to be suited for street application. Everything I've read, and experienced in an RB spring car, in auto-x or harder cornering is that they do not respond as well as they could. They work fine for normal driving and a bit of spirited runs, but anything harder or auto-x/road race and they cannot respond fast enough. God forbid you take them to the track and have issues launching!
This general tendency to be mild could be either their desire to keep the median happy, it could be because they are not experienced enough to go past it, or it could be because of faulty design and they actually believe it will perform in all applications better than it really does. It's hard to know what the true answer is.
Is that more of what you wanted?
Their exhausts are very mild. They are mild in sound and performance overall. I realize on the rx8 there is not much to be had as far as the catback in performance increase, but RB still seems to be in the lower end, by very little but still the lower end. My BIGGEST issue is their exhaust systems are heavy! The dual catback is actually heavier than stock. I'm not sure how they pull this off to be honest? So the little gain in hp performance + increase weight = no performance gain at all in my view. The quality, however, is very good and should last a long long time.
...
Also, RB exhausts are generally ver mild in sound due to mufflers that will keep sound to a minimum, but at the same time hinder some performance a tad. Some people prefer the quiet sound over the 1-2hp gain of more free flowing, some don't, that's a choice obviously.
As far as non-exhaust components go... Their flywheels are good units, I admit that. I run the aluminum RB flywheel on my 2nd gen rx7, however the reason I do is because no other company provides an aluminum flywheel for the non-turbo transmission 2nd gen unfortunately. The downside to their flywheels, though, is the high cost. Just like everything at RB the cost is much much higher than most companies. I want to know why honestly. Many other companies, for flywheels, such as ACT do the same R&D, have the same weight flywheel, provide the same durability, but provide it at a much lower cost. What makes RB units so special? As long as people buy it, though, they will sell it obviously.
Their clutches are not so top-notch. The reviews I've read about their clutches are that they cannot handle huge amounts of power. ...
Suspension next? The sway bars they sell are nice, but they are not the best. RB seems to like to stay mild with everything. The RB sway bars for the 2nd gen rx7, for example, are barely better than TII, and negligible compared to the vert sway bars. Both which can be bought used for very cheap. On the rx8 I have not read many reviews, but I will assume they are mild again. I have however checked the sizing on it and they seem to be smaller than other optoins out there. Their springs are nice and comfortable, but do not perform the best. The springs they develop and sell seem to be suited for street application. Everything I've read, and experienced in an RB spring car, in auto-x or harder cornering is that they do not respond as well as they could. They work fine for normal driving and a bit of spirited runs, but anything harder or auto-x/road race and they cannot respond fast enough. God forbid you take them to the track and have issues launching!
This general tendency to be mild could be either their desire to keep the median happy, it could be because they are not experienced enough to go past it, or it could be because of faulty design and they actually believe it will perform in all applications better than it really does. It's hard to know what the true answer is.
Is that more of what you wanted?
nothing that you have listed above is a major problem with the RB products. RB seems to have a balanced up-grade philosophy and there products seem to designed for people who want this. all manufactures embellish there products to a certain degree; it's called marketing. I don't buy RB products (yet) as they aren't quite what I'm after, but it seems to me they offer the majority of owners what they are after.
12-17-2005, 05:58 PM
#106
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This response might be a bit late but i personally take that as an insult. It was my car that picked up 21hp on the low end and 35hp peak. And I was there for all the dyno's and am not trying to sell anyone anything....so are you saying that I'm providing false information and that an unbiased dyno is favoring a certain product?
Originally Posted by StealthTL
Who is TurboXS?...oh, that's right, the guys who are trying to sell it to you told you TWENTY-ONE HORSEPOWER.
Not twenty, I like that touch, makes it SO much more "believable".
(Damn, I lost that "eyes rolling" emoticon again!)
S
Not twenty, I like that touch, makes it SO much more "believable".
(Damn, I lost that "eyes rolling" emoticon again!)
S
12-17-2005, 06:13 PM
#107
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I've never seen them bash the competition. They won't. Here's a quote from their website whic states their position on things and it makes it all very clear. It also supports what I've said the whole time about only posting the results that you have actually gotten.
"During the prototyping of our RX-8 exhaust, we kept hearing claims of rather large HP gains from other aftermarket exhaust systems. Since we were not observing gains anywhere near some of these claims, we decided to obtain two of these systems for our own reference. One of the systems performed as expected and produced around 3 HP, as did the RB prototype unit. However, the other system did not fare as well and actually produced less power than stock!
Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. Aftermarket manufacturers test products using various methods, and as you can see the results can vary!
It has been our recent experience with normally-aspirated Mazda applications that significant HP gains from an aftermarket exhaust system are hard to obtain. Mazda is simply doing a very good job with their exhaust systems! In today's horsepower hungry marketplace, it is unlikely that a significant amount of horsepower would be left behind in an ineffective OEM exhaust design. But hey, that's just our opinion!"
I highlighted the word "we" which means they are using the data from their own tests. That's fair. They also state that testing methods and results can vary. Yes they can. Some people don't understand that. Finally they stated that this is all their opinion. I don't see them claiming it is all gospel. They repoprt what they see and that's it and they don't bash the competition based on different testing methods. Can't expect more than that.
"During the prototyping of our RX-8 exhaust, we kept hearing claims of rather large HP gains from other aftermarket exhaust systems. Since we were not observing gains anywhere near some of these claims, we decided to obtain two of these systems for our own reference. One of the systems performed as expected and produced around 3 HP, as did the RB prototype unit. However, the other system did not fare as well and actually produced less power than stock!
Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. Aftermarket manufacturers test products using various methods, and as you can see the results can vary!
It has been our recent experience with normally-aspirated Mazda applications that significant HP gains from an aftermarket exhaust system are hard to obtain. Mazda is simply doing a very good job with their exhaust systems! In today's horsepower hungry marketplace, it is unlikely that a significant amount of horsepower would be left behind in an ineffective OEM exhaust design. But hey, that's just our opinion!"
I highlighted the word "we" which means they are using the data from their own tests. That's fair. They also state that testing methods and results can vary. Yes they can. Some people don't understand that. Finally they stated that this is all their opinion. I don't see them claiming it is all gospel. They repoprt what they see and that's it and they don't bash the competition based on different testing methods. Can't expect more than that.
oh thats right, they have never posted a dyno for any of their products because of upsetting Mazda. Score another win for the rotary community....
Last edited by r0tor; 12-17-2005 at 06:18 PM.
12-17-2005, 06:32 PM
#108
Originally Posted by Armaant
This response might be a bit late but i personally take that as an insult. It was my car that picked up 21hp on the low end and 35hp peak. And I was there for all the dyno's and am not trying to sell anyone anything....so are you saying that I'm providing false information and that an unbiased dyno is favoring a certain product?
12-17-2005, 07:55 PM
#112
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Originally Posted by truemagellen
are those adjusted numbers? or raw ouput
to be honest i dont know...all i know is i saw the pull at 171-181 and after the midpipe and exhaust it was at 205 peak...you would have to ask nathan about the dyno numbers
12-17-2005, 08:21 PM
#114
Administrator
Originally Posted by r0tor
Jim Langer tells the world Borla was full of crap about their 8hp gain because they could only make 4hp without any mufflers.... why would you even bring up testing involving no mufflers unless you are trying to say there is no more then 4hp tied up in mufflers?
Not only was his move completely classless attacking another company in their own thread, but their claims were only ever backed by the "we are Racing Beat - believe us" philosophy.
:
Not only was his move completely classless attacking another company in their own thread, but their claims were only ever backed by the "we are Racing Beat - believe us" philosophy.
:
Originally Posted by Racing Beat Inc
Ok guys, let me clarify.
We currently have a production Renesis engine on our engine dyno. With this engine we have tested the stock exhaust, the Borla exhaust, the Racing Beat prototype exhaust, another aftermarket exhaust, and an "open exhaust".
The open exhaust (no muffler on the end of the connecting pipe) produced an additional 4 HP. The Borla performed well and produced about 3 HP as did the RB prototype system. The other aftermarket system produced -1 HP less than the stock system.
Based upon the results of our testing, we are having difficulty understanding some of the MUCH higher HP claims that are being made about exhaust systems that are available. It is certainly possible that their test procedures are different than ours, we can only fairly comment on the test procedures that we utilize and the results that we obtain.
*snip*
Jim Langer
We currently have a production Renesis engine on our engine dyno. With this engine we have tested the stock exhaust, the Borla exhaust, the Racing Beat prototype exhaust, another aftermarket exhaust, and an "open exhaust".
The open exhaust (no muffler on the end of the connecting pipe) produced an additional 4 HP. The Borla performed well and produced about 3 HP as did the RB prototype system. The other aftermarket system produced -1 HP less than the stock system.
Based upon the results of our testing, we are having difficulty understanding some of the MUCH higher HP claims that are being made about exhaust systems that are available. It is certainly possible that their test procedures are different than ours, we can only fairly comment on the test procedures that we utilize and the results that we obtain.
*snip*
Jim Langer
Originally Posted by david borla
Mufflers are obviously the most restrictive element of a cat-back. Manufacturers who don't design and manufacture their own mufflers are limited in their ability to build systems specifically tuned for a particular vehicle because they are buying universal (usually Magnaflow) mufflers. This may explain some of the discrepancies mentioned.
Borla designed a muffler that is exclusively used in our cat-back for the RX8.
Borla designed a muffler that is exclusively used in our cat-back for the RX8.
12-17-2005, 09:28 PM
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This response might be a bit late but i personally take that as an insult. It was my car that picked up 21hp on the low end and 35hp peak. And I was there for all the dyno's and am not trying to sell anyone anything....so are you saying that I'm providing false information and that an unbiased dyno is favoring a certain product?
12-17-2005, 09:34 PM
#116
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fine, if it is not bashing to go into another vendors thread and tell everyone their product doesn't make the claimed horsepower (keep in mind this is when RB didn't even have an exhaust out yet and everyone was buying Borla exhausts) -where are the dyno graph's of their "testing" to go along with calling out Borla?
oh thats right, they have never posted a dyno for any of their products because of upsetting Mazda. Score another win for the rotary community....
oh thats right, they have never posted a dyno for any of their products because of upsetting Mazda. Score another win for the rotary community....
What most sane people would ask for is dynos proving abnormally large gain claims like Borla made, not the cautiously optimistic gains RB is stating. Several of us have made the 2-3 whp gain with exhausts, what we are saying is a fallacy is the 12 hp claims of some of these other vendors.
12-17-2005, 09:57 PM
#117
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
I've never seen them bash the competition. They won't. Here's a quote from their website whic states their position on things and it makes it all very clear. It also supports what I've said the whole time about only posting the results that you have actually gotten.
"During the prototyping of our RX-8 exhaust, we kept hearing claims of rather large HP gains from other aftermarket exhaust systems. Since we were not observing gains anywhere near some of these claims, we decided to obtain two of these systems for our own reference. One of the systems performed as expected and produced around 3 HP, as did the RB prototype unit. However, the other system did not fare as well and actually produced less power than stock!
Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. Aftermarket manufacturers test products using various methods, and as you can see the results can vary!
It has been our recent experience with normally-aspirated Mazda applications that significant HP gains from an aftermarket exhaust system are hard to obtain. Mazda is simply doing a very good job with their exhaust systems! In today's horsepower hungry marketplace, it is unlikely that a significant amount of horsepower would be left behind in an ineffective OEM exhaust design. But hey, that's just our opinion!"
I highlighted the word "we" which means they are using the data from their own tests. That's fair. They also state that testing methods and results can vary. Yes they can. Some people don't understand that. Finally they stated that this is all their opinion. I don't see them claiming it is all gospel. They repoprt what they see and that's it and they don't bash the competition based on different testing methods. Can't expect more than that.
"During the prototyping of our RX-8 exhaust, we kept hearing claims of rather large HP gains from other aftermarket exhaust systems. Since we were not observing gains anywhere near some of these claims, we decided to obtain two of these systems for our own reference. One of the systems performed as expected and produced around 3 HP, as did the RB prototype unit. However, the other system did not fare as well and actually produced less power than stock!
Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. Aftermarket manufacturers test products using various methods, and as you can see the results can vary!
It has been our recent experience with normally-aspirated Mazda applications that significant HP gains from an aftermarket exhaust system are hard to obtain. Mazda is simply doing a very good job with their exhaust systems! In today's horsepower hungry marketplace, it is unlikely that a significant amount of horsepower would be left behind in an ineffective OEM exhaust design. But hey, that's just our opinion!"
I highlighted the word "we" which means they are using the data from their own tests. That's fair. They also state that testing methods and results can vary. Yes they can. Some people don't understand that. Finally they stated that this is all their opinion. I don't see them claiming it is all gospel. They repoprt what they see and that's it and they don't bash the competition based on different testing methods. Can't expect more than that.
RG... you are... let's say off on this one. You forget that whole debate I had with Ole Spiff, Jim Langer and a few others. The results of it were that there several members who agreed with the principle (inadvertently their wording seemed to bash the competition) and RB changed the wording on their site. That is where this, "Since it is our policy not to "bash" or downplay competitors products, nor do wish to embroil ourselves in a controversy over HP claims, we will keep the brand names of these other systems confidential. " statement came from.
I am fairly statisfied with the wording that came out at the end.
RB hasn't stated that their results are "the law" for the Renesis. They gave a simple explanation of their testing and the results (which included a couple competitors). Some people have taken these results to mean more than what the site says. It could have been RB's intention... they said that knowing that people will take it to mean more based on RB's reputation, etc. Maybe RB had less than honorable intentions, but until I see evidence proving it I'll take them to be innocent.
12-17-2005, 10:05 PM
#118
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Japan,
I've respected you for a long time and imagine I will continue to. Do you by chance have a copy of the wording originally used? If not are you convinced that they tended toward bashing a competitor?
I've respected you for a long time and imagine I will continue to. Do you by chance have a copy of the wording originally used? If not are you convinced that they tended toward bashing a competitor?
12-18-2005, 09:17 AM
#119
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Al'Gore ithm (Algorithm) A detailed sequence of actions to
perform to accomplish some task....ie.....keep recounting until you get the answer you want.
With Dyno runs being able to be +/- 7-9% from run to run, due to random walk....I feel that many HP claims could just be random reporting numbers.......the vendor need to sell product thus they just keep running dyno pulls until they get a good 2nd standard deviation from the base line and use that as our gain.
Since RB has listed out how they test, the process that they use I feel that they give the most accurate and correct numbers.
perform to accomplish some task....ie.....keep recounting until you get the answer you want.
With Dyno runs being able to be +/- 7-9% from run to run, due to random walk....I feel that many HP claims could just be random reporting numbers.......the vendor need to sell product thus they just keep running dyno pulls until they get a good 2nd standard deviation from the base line and use that as our gain.
Since RB has listed out how they test, the process that they use I feel that they give the most accurate and correct numbers.
12-18-2005, 11:38 AM
#120
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The concept of "reasonable" seems to have been lost somewhere in the last 20 years. Now it's the ruthless and brutal concept of "absolute perfection according to MY thinking and opinion" followed by endless verbal combat until one or all of the combatants are either exhausted or destroyed.
One thing I've learned in my life is you absolutely cannot please everybody, no matter what you do. You can walk on water and somebody will object, criticize, complain, bash you for it.
Speaking from actual experience, not hear-say, or "I read" or any non-personal source....I have been to Racing Beat many times, have met with and talked with both Jim Langer and Jim Mederer and others there. I've purchased and used their products for both my former Miata, and now my RX8. I don't care what "others" say. I like the company, I like the people, I like how they treated me, I like how they openly talk to you and show you what they are doing, I like the products I've purchased, I like how they've performed on my cars, and I highly recommend them to anyone who is interested in purchasing good quality products that work from a company that is honest and true enthusiasts of automobiles.
One thing I've learned in my life is you absolutely cannot please everybody, no matter what you do. You can walk on water and somebody will object, criticize, complain, bash you for it.
Speaking from actual experience, not hear-say, or "I read" or any non-personal source....I have been to Racing Beat many times, have met with and talked with both Jim Langer and Jim Mederer and others there. I've purchased and used their products for both my former Miata, and now my RX8. I don't care what "others" say. I like the company, I like the people, I like how they treated me, I like how they openly talk to you and show you what they are doing, I like the products I've purchased, I like how they've performed on my cars, and I highly recommend them to anyone who is interested in purchasing good quality products that work from a company that is honest and true enthusiasts of automobiles.
12-18-2005, 02:11 PM
#121
are you attempting to imply that the others aren't, that's the way it usually goes and is how this whole mess got started,
some people here think RB is the standard by which every part is measured, others disagreed to the point of finally speaking up and saying something about it ...
some people here think RB is the standard by which every part is measured, others disagreed to the point of finally speaking up and saying something about it ...
12-18-2005, 03:40 PM
#122
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Actually it got started because someone called RB liars based on different dyno results. The truth is that they publish their numbers and other companies publish their numbers and that it is in fact possible to see a wide variation betwen those tests and have no one be lying about it. The issue is that some people can't figure this simple fact out and they'd rather call RB liars and make up other bs excuses since they would rather believe higher claims. Then people try to misquote others and get personal about it when there is no reason to. Should RB be the standard by which others are judged? Not necessarily but I can tell you from experience with them that they are absolutely honest. Saying that why not use the most experienced and oldest rotary company as a standard since they have been proven honst? You don't have to of course but it would be a good standard to use. Of course someone will probably interpret that to mean that no one else is reputable or worthy of being used as a standard to judge others by. That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that there is not a single person anywhere who has the grounds to insult them or call them liars. Not one! There are other companies out there who have integrity too and many that don't. A fictitious name of someone the rotary community has no knowledge of who supposedly used to be affliliated with them in the past also lends no credibility to the argument as it can't (and won't) be proven true. Excuse after excuse has followed at every turn. This whole thread has been a fight between the RB hating morons and those who stick up for their honesty. It has nothing to do with the original topic which started all of this and is just a personal vendetta (albeit an unsuccessful one) for some to make them look bad. Not saying other companies aren't good as well. I do know a few that aren't though. The real question that needs to be answered though is that if some people don't believe RB's claims, why do you believe any others? That's a fair question. Someone give me a single logical response for that. I'll wait. I'm still waiting for my original questions to be answered satisfactorily and suspect I always will. The fact that people are still arguing against them is mindbogling. Aren't you guys out of excuses to speculate about. Every single arguement has been shot down and in a highly impressive way at that.
12-18-2005, 04:13 PM
#123
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I think some people just have a problem with establishment, any type of establishment. They despise success and capitalism. They lack respect for those who have gone before them and laid the groundwork. You seldom see this level of insultive behaviour from people beyond a certain age group unless they are still living with their parents or work at a job they are horribly unhappy with. They can't stand the fact that someone is doing quite well for themselves. It really does boil down to jealousy and it's the type that blinds them to reason.
12-18-2005, 05:36 PM
#124
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I don't consider RB is "the" standard and that their findings are absolute. But I do consider them a good baseline on products. If they say an exhaust gives about 3 whp, and somebody gets 4-5, it's not like I am screaming BS ! But if somebody comes out and states in their marketing literature that they are producing 12 hp, then that's when I get skeptical.
12-18-2005, 09:20 PM
#125
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I'll chime in with my "me too." I've never had a "problem" with RB's results... never thought them to be liars, dishonest, etc. I did think their original statement (wish I could find a copy of it) they made when they published their test results could easily be misconstrued.... especially because it was coming from Racing Beat, not some small unknown or "fly-by-night" company it made Racing Beat look bad ("bashing" competitors). And now some time later... the publishing of those test results has lead to them being used as a "standard." I think Racing Beat did it as a service for the community... everyone screams for dynos and they gave everyone their test results. Even with their exhaust for the Protege5 they even published the dyno sheet. HOWEVER... I can also see how someone could read something sinister into it... especially if they don't like RB or have had a bad experience with them... because RB is not an independent, neutral party. While that may be true... like I said... there is no evidence to support that idea, and plenty that says otherwise.