BHR Ignition Kit Doesn't Work!!
04-28-2009, 05:12 AM
#176
the rx-8 community will one day have the info through the generosity of the community, that's the great thing about freedom of information and sharing.
04-28-2009, 06:44 AM
#177
Registered
... Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. ...
04-28-2009, 06:53 AM
#178
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What the hell are you people talking about? This has been 8 pages of crap.
How about this.... Start a new thread....
Question -- Can some one help me with Access Tuner regarding dwel times for "X" coils.
Perhaps Request a DIY? Maybe in the Access tuner page? Asking some one strait out to just do something implies that you are holding them responsible if anything happens and then all that happens is they get defensive and worry that they are heading down a road of liability.
Thats just my thoughts.
How about this.... Start a new thread....
Question -- Can some one help me with Access Tuner regarding dwel times for "X" coils.
Perhaps Request a DIY? Maybe in the Access tuner page? Asking some one strait out to just do something implies that you are holding them responsible if anything happens and then all that happens is they get defensive and worry that they are heading down a road of liability.
Thats just my thoughts.
04-28-2009, 06:57 AM
#179
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Here's an example following the logic I've seen in this thread:
You buy a turbo kit from Greddy for your RX8. Now, it's impossible to use your turbo kit using the RX8's stock PCM so it's the responsibility of the customer to provide engine management and tuning. While greddy provides the emanage, they don't tell you how to tune the car.
So, you get the turbo installed but you don't have any idea what the car should be tuned to. So you call greddy and ask "what air/fuel rations should I run with your turbo kit?" Greddy says they suggest 11.5:1 air/fuel. Then you ask greddy...
"Ok, 11.5:1 sounds good but I have no idea how to tell my PCM to make my air/fuel 11.5:1 so can you just send me a screen shot of your RX8 fuel tables and I'll just copy/paste that into my tuning software?"
Of course the guy on the phone is going to tell you he can't do that. Even if they had that information sitting next to them.
Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. If you're a cross customer of MazdaManiac then you can get him to alter the settings for you. If you're using Hymee's software I would talk to Hymee about getting that information.
Otherwise, I've given the necessary dwell settings above.
You buy a turbo kit from Greddy for your RX8. Now, it's impossible to use your turbo kit using the RX8's stock PCM so it's the responsibility of the customer to provide engine management and tuning. While greddy provides the emanage, they don't tell you how to tune the car.
So, you get the turbo installed but you don't have any idea what the car should be tuned to. So you call greddy and ask "what air/fuel rations should I run with your turbo kit?" Greddy says they suggest 11.5:1 air/fuel. Then you ask greddy...
"Ok, 11.5:1 sounds good but I have no idea how to tell my PCM to make my air/fuel 11.5:1 so can you just send me a screen shot of your RX8 fuel tables and I'll just copy/paste that into my tuning software?"
Of course the guy on the phone is going to tell you he can't do that. Even if they had that information sitting next to them.
Bottom line is, what's being asked of BHR is to provide the direct data to input into the accessport, hymee, interceptor-x, or whatever engine management being used. We have already stated what the dwell should be for the coils, is the responsibility of the customer to get that data into a format that can be applied to their PCM. If you're a cross customer of MazdaManiac then you can get him to alter the settings for you. If you're using Hymee's software I would talk to Hymee about getting that information.
Otherwise, I've given the necessary dwell settings above.
If I would have bought a Greddy Turbo kit, they would have supplied me with an unlocked basemap on the e-manage blue to make what I just bought actually work! If mazda would have better consistency in their cars (like say VW where one flash actually fits all) the base map would actually have worked well too! But anyway, we are not talking about tuning a fuel map now are we? We are talking about a dwell map that should be a set and forget map for anyone with the BHR coils and being good for only the people using these yukon coils.
I'm officially done with this
04-28-2009, 07:03 AM
#180
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Where your analogy fails a little bit is that BHR already sold these coils assuring customers that the dwell characteristics were similar to stock and that these kinds of adjustments wouldn't need to be made. Does that change your responsibility for making more info public now or trying to support other products? I don't know. Just trying to help you understand others' apparent frustration.
As stated previously, what's really being asked of us is to provide the precise data inputs which when entered into the AP pro-tuner software would yield the dwell settings that we've suggested. I see no other reason that can be disputed because we've already provided the actual dwell settings which we believe will fix the problem.
04-28-2009, 07:13 AM
#181
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As stated previously, what's really being asked of us is to provide the precise data inputs which when entered into the AP pro-tuner software would yield the dwell settings that we've suggested. I see no other reason that can be disputed because we've already provided the actual dwell settings which we believe will fix the problem.
BHR has a product it released which is flawed. It also has the information to correct the flaws at hand for a particular group of owners who are using Cobb's tunes (or self-made tunes or tunes by a non-BHR associated tuner). I know I would have never bought the kit had I been required to get a tune to my AP to get the full use of the kit.
Is it really too much to ask for a screenshot of the appropriate settings in the most popular tuning device? Information that you have on hand and that can't be used by anyone who hasn't purchased the BHR Ignition Kit?
It's bad enough that I have to start tuning my car before I feel comfortable doing so. Why make it worse and withhold information that you have on hand?
I think Ray did the right thing letting us know the problem. But teasing us with the solution and not providing it seems a step backwards.
04-28-2009, 07:24 AM
#182
I subscribed to this thread to keep abreast of the the potential or real problems with the BHR coils. I may have missed them but have not really seen any posters with a real problem. What I think I am reading is a group that feels that an installation instruction (FI users should adjust their dwell) should be done by the manufacturer or supplier. Gee that would be nice if all purchases came with installation and any changes in the instructions were done by the manufacturer or supplier. You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.
04-28-2009, 07:29 AM
#183
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It's bad enough that I have to start tuning my car before I feel comfortable doing so. Why make it worse and withhold information that you have on hand?
I think Ray did the right thing letting us know the problem. But teasing us with the solution and not providing it seems a step backwards.
Is there any added benefit to adjusting your dwell settings N/A? I don't know. The adjustments I made on my own RX8 didn't yield any changes that I could tell.
I don't want anyone who is N/A thinking that their upgrade isn't working properly without these changes. Unless you're flowing more than 300 g/s of air it's not something you should worry about.
04-28-2009, 07:39 AM
#184
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I subscribed to this thread to keep abreast of the the potential or real problems with the BHR coils. I may have missed them but have not really seen any posters with a real problem. What I think I am reading is a group that feels that an installation instruction (FI users should adjust their dwell) should be done by the manufacturer or supplier. Gee that would be nice if all purchases came with installation and any changes in the instructions were done by the manufacturer or supplier. You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
It sounds to me that it would have been better for BHR to have just PMed the effected customers and given the added instruction and not started this thread. Since it only effects FI users that would have been the easiest way.
04-28-2009, 08:52 AM
#185
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Flashwing - I have had problems with the difference between the OEM ignition and the BHR ignition system. They were addressed by upgrading my battery and starter. The problems indicate that there aren't a whole lot of 04s being used to test the BHR system. Telling me to not worry about a known mismatch of the BHR system and OEM dwell settings doesn't really sit well with me. Telling me that you don't feel a difference when your car has the change in dwell settings misses the point completely. I don't want to feel a change. I want to know that I won't start seeing issues 3 months down the road due to this and that the FI applications just happened to see these issues before the NA applications. It's not like I'm driving around a bone stock 8 either.
Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.
I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.
I purchased a set of upgraded coils advertised to provide a more reliable and complete ignition system with the OEM settings.
Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.
And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.
Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.
I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.
Originally Posted by Phil's 8
You only purchased a set of upgraded coils not an engine management system.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
I'm one of those MM AP users that will receive dwell corrections free, but that does not mean that I expect Jeff or Ray to appear in my driveway to install the new map.
Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.
And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.
04-28-2009, 09:40 AM
#187
Flashwing - I have had problems with the difference between the OEM ignition and the BHR ignition system. They were addressed by upgrading my battery and starter. The problems indicate that there aren't a whole lot of 04s being used to test the BHR system. Telling me to not worry about a known mismatch of the BHR system and OEM dwell settings doesn't really sit well with me. Telling me that you don't feel a difference when your car has the change in dwell settings misses the point completely. I don't want to feel a change. I want to know that I won't start seeing issues 3 months down the road due to this and that the FI applications just happened to see these issues before the NA applications. It's not like I'm driving around a bone stock 8 either.
Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.
I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.
I purchased a set of upgraded coils advertised to provide a more reliable and complete ignition system with the OEM settings.
Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.
And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.
Not sharing information that would correct this seems to be a good reason to have not started this thread at all.
I'll post in the ECU forum to see if someone out there can be more helpful.
I purchased a set of upgraded coils advertised to provide a more reliable and complete ignition system with the OEM settings.
Now I have no idea if I bought something that is giving me the same reliability or worse than the OEM with the OEM settings. All I know is that it 'works' woth OEM settings. That's pretty frustrating.
And asking for information that BHR has for a BHR product is a far cry from asking Ray to swing by my house to show me how to change maps on my AP.
I did look at your "garage" and did not see any item on your list of mods, except for the AP, that would have caused any change from stock. The only reason I did not include the AP as I have no idea what kind of tune you have.
What your asking for is for Ray or MM to supply you with a complete new tune for your AP. Can't see that happening (unless you purchased it from MM). When you purchased the Revi did racing beat come out and install it? or did you get a set of instructions. Instructions change over time as the manufacturer sees need for improvements.
04-28-2009, 09:53 AM
#188
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I installed my coils and I have an issue due my boosted setup. I knew I would have an issue buying these coils until a remedy would fix it. I knew what that solution was and was well informed prior to my purchase. I installed the kit and my car ran much smoother that it did on the OEM coils. I have an AFR issue in boost but that is what I knew would be a problem. I was informed the issue will be fixed and I can wait. Everytime I have sent MM or Ray a pm my questions have been returned with a phone call or a pm reply. Those who say they were told the coils will "work" but not suggest they dont are wrong. They do work and they are better than stock. For the boosteed folks the stock coils needed to be replaced near 300hp anyway and we know there was a dwell setting issue because a select few found out the hard way with Mazsport. Even after extensive testing with the Mazsport coils an engine had to be rebuilt because of the damage from the coils. For N/A guys they work fine as some have stated. For boosted guys wait on your map and if you havent paid for the service then pay for it. Like others said you paid for coils not an engine management. Why all this complaining? It isn't like you kept in the dark about this, hence the first post.
04-28-2009, 10:46 AM
#189
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Since even Kane (and everyone else so far) is getting ripped on as an idiot by MM in another thread on his attempt to change the settings to meet the 5ms spec it's safe to say this is more complex then just 'set it to 5ms'.
I know that if the dwell setting is too high the coils will retain heat and reduce their life significantly. Since this is too low my understanding is that the power specced for these coils isn't there. Hopefully they are supplying enough spark to keep the engine running but I have personal doubts at how healthy that is in the long run.
04-28-2009, 11:31 AM
#191
That is not at all what I'm asking for or anyone else in this thread has asked for from BHR. We're just asking for the appropriate chart for the AP so I can adjust the settings to my existing tune. I don't believe dwell settings change on MM tunes unless the buyer had a different ignition system (ie. Mazsport). So what MM is supplying is the same tune with different dwell settings.
Since even Kane (and everyone else so far) is getting ripped on as an idiot by MM in another thread on his attempt to change the settings to meet the 5ms spec it's safe to say this is more complex then just 'set it to 5ms'.
I know that if the dwell setting is too high the coils will retain heat and reduce their life significantly. Since this is too low my understanding is that the power specced for these coils isn't there. Hopefully they are supplying enough spark to keep the engine running but I have personal doubts at how healthy that is in the long run.
Since even Kane (and everyone else so far) is getting ripped on as an idiot by MM in another thread on his attempt to change the settings to meet the 5ms spec it's safe to say this is more complex then just 'set it to 5ms'.
I know that if the dwell setting is too high the coils will retain heat and reduce their life significantly. Since this is too low my understanding is that the power specced for these coils isn't there. Hopefully they are supplying enough spark to keep the engine running but I have personal doubts at how healthy that is in the long run.
I think I saw a post from BHR that they will resolve all problems if you felt cheated or short changed and while you are not saying it you are implying that feeling. I think I would carry this to BHR for resolution by PM.
04-28-2009, 11:54 AM
#193
No it doesn't. There is no value assigned to the data, just the RPM and voltage axes.
Plus, its the result under load that is the question, not the actual coil output.
There are already plenty of places to 'scope traces of the Yukon coil's output at all possible dwell settings.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 04-28-2009 at 11:59 AM.
04-28-2009, 12:09 PM
#195
There's a help file?
I don't think I ever thought to click on that... [reading]
Well, they blew it there (like most of that manual). I wish they had actually used my edits.
Look at it this way - Do you REALLY believe the OE ignition dwell at idle and 14v is 1.1 seconds?
I don't think I ever thought to click on that... [reading]
Well, they blew it there (like most of that manual). I wish they had actually used my edits.
Look at it this way - Do you REALLY believe the OE ignition dwell at idle and 14v is 1.1 seconds?
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 04-28-2009 at 12:13 PM.
04-28-2009, 02:42 PM
#196
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https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...postcount=3211
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Without tooting my horn too hard - I created the BHR ignition.
Its CRH's marketing prowess that is making it available to you all.
I've been running the system since February.
It doesn't require anything special from the calibration unlike some other options out there
Its CRH's marketing prowess that is making it available to you all.
I've been running the system since February.
It doesn't require anything special from the calibration unlike some other options out there
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
If your aftermarket supplier does not furnish you with dwell information when you purchase a set of coils, they are doing you an injustice.
And the Mazsport ignition solution 'worked' with OEM settings too.
As for a refund I'll see if I can figure out the dwell settings first. I'm sure Ray would do me right. Never a doubt about him in respect to how he conducts his business.
04-28-2009, 02:52 PM
#197
When we deemed the LS2s to be our coil of choice (for several reasons), and before we began production, I ran into the Yukon coils as another option and assumed (which is where I screwed up) that their operational properties were the exact same as the LS2s except with much higher electrical output.
Therefore, RK, you do not owe anybody an apology. Certainly not me, anyway.
04-28-2009, 03:21 PM
#199
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I don't even own a set of coils and was sold on getting a set this year. After this and the HUGE cahones Charles has for publicly admitting a mistake, I'm definitely sold as a BHR fanboy! Anyone that can openly admit a mistake like that is someone that can be trusted to do right by the customer.
Cheers BHR! Keep up the good work, great products, and excellent service.
Cheers BHR! Keep up the good work, great products, and excellent service.
04-28-2009, 03:47 PM
#200
I have the Mazsport coils and now believe they were at least in part , the reason I blew my motor back in November(me being the other reason) . I'm not sure but I do suspect the dwell settings had something to do with that as there was nothing actually wrong with the coils/ignitor .
About the same time as I got back on the road (lots of time , money and effort later) the BHR coils came out - hmmm I thought - I'll wait and see if these are the answer but not leap in like i did the last time .
I have had pms from at least two BHR users with turbos who had issues with the coils so I know there are issues with them in an FI application .
Question : If I bought a set of coils from BHR , would I also get the necessary dwell information to plug into my Hymee Pro Tuner or would I be expected to figure out something that it seems only one person in the entire world (outside of Mazda) has been able to work out so far ?
If not - someone please give me one good reason why I would even contemplate buying these coils .......
About the same time as I got back on the road (lots of time , money and effort later) the BHR coils came out - hmmm I thought - I'll wait and see if these are the answer but not leap in like i did the last time .
I have had pms from at least two BHR users with turbos who had issues with the coils so I know there are issues with them in an FI application .
Question : If I bought a set of coils from BHR , would I also get the necessary dwell information to plug into my Hymee Pro Tuner or would I be expected to figure out something that it seems only one person in the entire world (outside of Mazda) has been able to work out so far ?
If not - someone please give me one good reason why I would even contemplate buying these coils .......