MX-5 and RX-8 could merge
02-02-2012, 05:43 PM
#76
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No.
Not only would any "merger" be based on a Miata, not on a discontinued RX-8, but it would have the Kodo design language, and not look anything like a current 8.
More like this:
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/2014-mx-5-a-227772/
But even that is just the ND Miata renderings. A rotary version would likely still look visually different, not just "a different engine offering"
Not only would any "merger" be based on a Miata, not on a discontinued RX-8, but it would have the Kodo design language, and not look anything like a current 8.
More like this:
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/2014-mx-5-a-227772/
But even that is just the ND Miata renderings. A rotary version would likely still look visually different, not just "a different engine offering"
02-03-2012, 12:49 PM
#80
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Frankly, I think rotary lovers should thank their lucky stars that Mazda still pursues this engine regardless of financial loss after financial loss. I seriously wonder what the total loss has been since the FD RX7? It must be staggering.
I was in my local Mazda dealer a few days ago. I saw a RX8 getting an engine replaced. I asked the guy how often they replace an engine. He said, all the time. There is always one in the shop. I asked him about the mileage on a typical engine replacement. He said it could be anything, including very low mileage.
BTW, I've read a lot of you complaining about what Mazda builds, and how they aren't doing what you want them to. Have you bought any Mazdas that are not rotaries? The Miata is selling fine and has been for a couple of decades. Same with the Mazda3 - Mazda's bread and butter. If you really love the rotary, put your money where your mouth is and buy one of the other great cars they sell. Everything they make has its own Mazda identity, and in, IMO, is better than the competition.
In 2003 I bought a Mazda6 that was awesome in every way. I used to park it next to other mid size sedans, just to show them what a mistake they made. My wife has a CX9 that corners flatter than anything that size should! Yes, I did have a 350z before my RX8, but hey, I saw the light!
These are the cars that finance your next rotary dream. They MAKE money. Rotaries lose money. I love my RX8, but I am objective enough to realise how flawed it is, and that Mazda only pursues it for the (questionably valuable) halo car factor.
Note: I don't work for Mazda, but I do mark out to them, shamelessly.
I was in my local Mazda dealer a few days ago. I saw a RX8 getting an engine replaced. I asked the guy how often they replace an engine. He said, all the time. There is always one in the shop. I asked him about the mileage on a typical engine replacement. He said it could be anything, including very low mileage.
BTW, I've read a lot of you complaining about what Mazda builds, and how they aren't doing what you want them to. Have you bought any Mazdas that are not rotaries? The Miata is selling fine and has been for a couple of decades. Same with the Mazda3 - Mazda's bread and butter. If you really love the rotary, put your money where your mouth is and buy one of the other great cars they sell. Everything they make has its own Mazda identity, and in, IMO, is better than the competition.
In 2003 I bought a Mazda6 that was awesome in every way. I used to park it next to other mid size sedans, just to show them what a mistake they made. My wife has a CX9 that corners flatter than anything that size should! Yes, I did have a 350z before my RX8, but hey, I saw the light!
These are the cars that finance your next rotary dream. They MAKE money. Rotaries lose money. I love my RX8, but I am objective enough to realise how flawed it is, and that Mazda only pursues it for the (questionably valuable) halo car factor.
Note: I don't work for Mazda, but I do mark out to them, shamelessly.
02-03-2012, 01:11 PM
#81
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I do thank them heavily for pursuing the rotary. And I put my money there too.
The RX-8 is my 3rd of 4 Mazdas, the other 3 being a Protege5, a Mazda5, and a Miata. The Mazda5 and the Miata are likely going to be leaving the driveway permanently soon, and I will need a better daily than my 8, and a new NC Miata, ND Miata once it shows up, and/or a diesel CX-5 are on my consideration list.
Sure, the RX-8 is flawed in many many ways, ways I recognize and deal with. But in the end, my smile doesn't care. I don't ignore the flaws, but they aren't enough to make me frown.
Every car has it's flaws though. Every single last one. I had a Corolla that blew it's engine. My Miata is probably going to get it's 3rd engine before I get rid of it. My Protege5 had electrical and transmission issues. The Impreza has the oil pickup tube crack issue that destroys the engine nearly immediately. The 350z has oil overheating and starvation issues that can easily be deadly to an engine. BMW 325s have the rear subframe cracking issue. I can keep going...
Even the lower "flaws" that are bashed by people aren't really any better elsewhere. Looking up oil consumption rates for several dozen models showed that an unintended burn rate of up to 1qt per 1,000miles as "acceptable" and you NEVER hear people complaining about it, but the 8 gets severe bashing for the same consumption by design. (My Miata burns 1qt every 200-300 miles right now). People think nothing of 12mpg daily driving a pickup truck and cheer when they get to 15mpg, and then bash the 8 as a gas guzzler for being able to "only" get 20-22mpg.
Sure, it's flawed. But not really more than any other car. Take your pick of what flaws you can live with and deal with, and then pick the car to suit.
The RX-8 is my 3rd of 4 Mazdas, the other 3 being a Protege5, a Mazda5, and a Miata. The Mazda5 and the Miata are likely going to be leaving the driveway permanently soon, and I will need a better daily than my 8, and a new NC Miata, ND Miata once it shows up, and/or a diesel CX-5 are on my consideration list.
Sure, the RX-8 is flawed in many many ways, ways I recognize and deal with. But in the end, my smile doesn't care. I don't ignore the flaws, but they aren't enough to make me frown.
Every car has it's flaws though. Every single last one. I had a Corolla that blew it's engine. My Miata is probably going to get it's 3rd engine before I get rid of it. My Protege5 had electrical and transmission issues. The Impreza has the oil pickup tube crack issue that destroys the engine nearly immediately. The 350z has oil overheating and starvation issues that can easily be deadly to an engine. BMW 325s have the rear subframe cracking issue. I can keep going...
Even the lower "flaws" that are bashed by people aren't really any better elsewhere. Looking up oil consumption rates for several dozen models showed that an unintended burn rate of up to 1qt per 1,000miles as "acceptable" and you NEVER hear people complaining about it, but the 8 gets severe bashing for the same consumption by design. (My Miata burns 1qt every 200-300 miles right now). People think nothing of 12mpg daily driving a pickup truck and cheer when they get to 15mpg, and then bash the 8 as a gas guzzler for being able to "only" get 20-22mpg.
Sure, it's flawed. But not really more than any other car. Take your pick of what flaws you can live with and deal with, and then pick the car to suit.
02-03-2012, 01:52 PM
#82
Momentum Keeps Me Going
^ ++ RIWWP
As for buying a Mazda just because they are a Mazda.... well perhaps not. I'm a car agnostic, make a car I like, I may buy it used a few yrs down the road when the weird problems are well documented and I can judge whether it's worth the bother. It takes a really really special car (like an RX-8) before I'll waste good cash & pay for the luxury of a new car. Frankly it make no sense to me for "just transportation" ... which is what a car is unless it's a 'toy' car for pleasure only.
As for buying a Mazda just because they are a Mazda.... well perhaps not. I'm a car agnostic, make a car I like, I may buy it used a few yrs down the road when the weird problems are well documented and I can judge whether it's worth the bother. It takes a really really special car (like an RX-8) before I'll waste good cash & pay for the luxury of a new car. Frankly it make no sense to me for "just transportation" ... which is what a car is unless it's a 'toy' car for pleasure only.
02-03-2012, 06:57 PM
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I do thank them heavily for pursuing the rotary. And I put my money there too.
The RX-8 is my 3rd of 4 Mazdas, the other 3 being a Protege5, a Mazda5, and a Miata. The Mazda5 and the Miata are likely going to be leaving the driveway permanently soon, and I will need a better daily than my 8, and a new NC Miata, ND Miata once it shows up, and/or a diesel CX-5 are on my consideration list.
Sure, the RX-8 is flawed in many many ways, ways I recognize and deal with. But in the end, my smile doesn't care. I don't ignore the flaws, but they aren't enough to make me frown.
Every car has it's flaws though. Every single last one. I had a Corolla that blew it's engine. My Miata is probably going to get it's 3rd engine before I get rid of it. My Protege5 had electrical and transmission issues. The Impreza has the oil pickup tube crack issue that destroys the engine nearly immediately. The 350z has oil overheating and starvation issues that can easily be deadly to an engine. BMW 325s have the rear subframe cracking issue. I can keep going...
Even the lower "flaws" that are bashed by people aren't really any better elsewhere. Looking up oil consumption rates for several dozen models showed that an unintended burn rate of up to 1qt per 1,000miles as "acceptable" and you NEVER hear people complaining about it, but the 8 gets severe bashing for the same consumption by design. (My Miata burns 1qt every 200-300 miles right now). People think nothing of 12mpg daily driving a pickup truck and cheer when they get to 15mpg, and then bash the 8 as a gas guzzler for being able to "only" get 20-22mpg.
Sure, it's flawed. But not really more than any other car. Take your pick of what flaws you can live with and deal with, and then pick the car to suit.
The RX-8 is my 3rd of 4 Mazdas, the other 3 being a Protege5, a Mazda5, and a Miata. The Mazda5 and the Miata are likely going to be leaving the driveway permanently soon, and I will need a better daily than my 8, and a new NC Miata, ND Miata once it shows up, and/or a diesel CX-5 are on my consideration list.
Sure, the RX-8 is flawed in many many ways, ways I recognize and deal with. But in the end, my smile doesn't care. I don't ignore the flaws, but they aren't enough to make me frown.
Every car has it's flaws though. Every single last one. I had a Corolla that blew it's engine. My Miata is probably going to get it's 3rd engine before I get rid of it. My Protege5 had electrical and transmission issues. The Impreza has the oil pickup tube crack issue that destroys the engine nearly immediately. The 350z has oil overheating and starvation issues that can easily be deadly to an engine. BMW 325s have the rear subframe cracking issue. I can keep going...
Even the lower "flaws" that are bashed by people aren't really any better elsewhere. Looking up oil consumption rates for several dozen models showed that an unintended burn rate of up to 1qt per 1,000miles as "acceptable" and you NEVER hear people complaining about it, but the 8 gets severe bashing for the same consumption by design. (My Miata burns 1qt every 200-300 miles right now). People think nothing of 12mpg daily driving a pickup truck and cheer when they get to 15mpg, and then bash the 8 as a gas guzzler for being able to "only" get 20-22mpg.
Sure, it's flawed. But not really more than any other car. Take your pick of what flaws you can live with and deal with, and then pick the car to suit.
Our cars don't have flaws. They have character
02-03-2012, 07:25 PM
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The difference is the next rotary will likely use the MX-5 platform and be smaller. The current MX-5 uses the 8's platform, which is why it has gotten bigger.
One thing is for sure...Mazda really has their work cut out for them now with the pending arrival of the FT-86 and BRZ...small, affordable sports cars. A new rotary car will have to be competitive in MPG and price point in order for it to work with these new cars coming out unless they take it more upscale (275+) in the power department.
One thing is for sure...Mazda really has their work cut out for them now with the pending arrival of the FT-86 and BRZ...small, affordable sports cars. A new rotary car will have to be competitive in MPG and price point in order for it to work with these new cars coming out unless they take it more upscale (275+) in the power department.
Last edited by 77mjd; 02-03-2012 at 07:27 PM.
02-03-2012, 08:14 PM
#89
If there is any hope for a rotary inside of ~4 years, it would be as an option on the Miata. As a true 2 seater, it has potential as a "more pure" sports car that might make a little money if costs could be kept down. Even a Series II Renny would give better perfomance than the heavier BRZ.
Still, not looking good.
02-03-2012, 09:00 PM
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Very true. They are good looking, initial test reviews are glowing, and they look good. They also have the marketing might of 2 prosperous companies behind them.
If there is any hope for a rotary inside of ~4 years, it would be as an option on the Miata. As a true 2 seater, it has potential as a "more pure" sports car that might make a little money if costs could be kept down. Even a Series II Renny would give better perfomance than the heavier BRZ.
Still, not looking good.
If there is any hope for a rotary inside of ~4 years, it would be as an option on the Miata. As a true 2 seater, it has potential as a "more pure" sports car that might make a little money if costs could be kept down. Even a Series II Renny would give better perfomance than the heavier BRZ.
Still, not looking good.
02-04-2012, 08:31 PM
#91
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Very true. They are good looking, initial test reviews are glowing, and they look good. They also have the marketing might of 2 prosperous companies behind them.
If there is any hope for a rotary inside of ~4 years, it would be as an option on the Miata. As a true 2 seater, it has potential as a "more pure" sports car that might make a little money if costs could be kept down. Even a Series II Renny would give better perfomance than the heavier BRZ.
Still, not looking good.
If there is any hope for a rotary inside of ~4 years, it would be as an option on the Miata. As a true 2 seater, it has potential as a "more pure" sports car that might make a little money if costs could be kept down. Even a Series II Renny would give better perfomance than the heavier BRZ.
Still, not looking good.
05-01-2012, 08:31 AM
#92
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I though a merge of the MX5 and RX8 was a good idea so I had one built. Currently at 195rwhp and 1028kg. I wanted to wait until the 16X was available but gave up with that idea.
The high-rpm nature of the Renesis really suits a lightweight platform. The linear power delivery makes it very controllable.
Going back for porting next, should get another 20bhp. Then a bit more weight will come off in the next few weeks, aim is 1000kg whilst still looking completely normal and staying usable as a daily.
The high-rpm nature of the Renesis really suits a lightweight platform. The linear power delivery makes it very controllable.
Going back for porting next, should get another 20bhp. Then a bit more weight will come off in the next few weeks, aim is 1000kg whilst still looking completely normal and staying usable as a daily.
05-01-2012, 09:49 AM
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I've always said I'd buy an MX-5 with a rotary. Just sounds like too much FUN.
I didn't buy my RX-8 for even a remotely sane reason. It is just my fun car. Oh, and I can drive it to work, or in an autocross, or on a trip ..... etc, etc.
As for buying Mazda, let’s see, I had the first year MPV (230,000 miles), followed by a last model 929 (175,000 miles), and an 03 MPV (currently 120,000 miles), and the 04 RX-8 (no problems at 35,000 miles).
Mazda has quit building everything I've ever owned. I'm afraid to buy an MX-5 ...... ?
I have switched my end of production stigma to a 2011 Honda Ridgeline, so I can tow my Datsun 2000 to SOLO IIs.
What is my point? I have no earthly idea what-so-ever !!!
I didn't buy my RX-8 for even a remotely sane reason. It is just my fun car. Oh, and I can drive it to work, or in an autocross, or on a trip ..... etc, etc.
As for buying Mazda, let’s see, I had the first year MPV (230,000 miles), followed by a last model 929 (175,000 miles), and an 03 MPV (currently 120,000 miles), and the 04 RX-8 (no problems at 35,000 miles).
Mazda has quit building everything I've ever owned. I'm afraid to buy an MX-5 ...... ?
I have switched my end of production stigma to a 2011 Honda Ridgeline, so I can tow my Datsun 2000 to SOLO IIs.
What is my point? I have no earthly idea what-so-ever !!!
05-01-2012, 10:13 AM
#95
I though a merge of the MX5 and RX8 was a good idea so I had one built. Currently at 195rwhp and 1028kg. I wanted to wait until the 16X was available but gave up with that idea.
The high-rpm nature of the Renesis really suits a lightweight platform. The linear power delivery makes it very controllable.
Going back for porting next, should get another 20bhp. Then a bit more weight will come off in the next few weeks, aim is 1000kg whilst still looking completely normal and staying usable as a daily.
The high-rpm nature of the Renesis really suits a lightweight platform. The linear power delivery makes it very controllable.
Going back for porting next, should get another 20bhp. Then a bit more weight will come off in the next few weeks, aim is 1000kg whilst still looking completely normal and staying usable as a daily.
05-01-2012, 11:24 AM
#97
@ UKMIATA
Looks Beautiful,
I think you want the 3 air lines to be down stream of the MAF though, at least the air injector one, the other two are a lot less important. I did a catch can they way you have this one set up and the ECU had a hard time tuning around what was in essence a huge vacuum leak. It showed up by taking forever to smooth out after an ECU reset. In tuning, the fuel trims showed rich, like a vacuum leak. Then they had to adjust real time when it came off idle.
Still, looks beautiful.
Looks Beautiful,
I think you want the 3 air lines to be down stream of the MAF though, at least the air injector one, the other two are a lot less important. I did a catch can they way you have this one set up and the ECU had a hard time tuning around what was in essence a huge vacuum leak. It showed up by taking forever to smooth out after an ECU reset. In tuning, the fuel trims showed rich, like a vacuum leak. Then they had to adjust real time when it came off idle.
Still, looks beautiful.
05-02-2012, 03:25 AM
#98
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>That's an awesome combination sir. What ecu are you using?
It's running on an Adaptronic e1280s. I wanted this one for the built-in traction control, that taps into all four ABS signals. The oil metering is handled by an EOMP controller made by Jason Dixon.
The ECU has a lot of features, almost too clever for its own good. It needed a lot of support from Adaptronic to get it setup properly, even for a guy (not me) that has been tuning for 20+years. (Support was very good).
Thanks for the comments.
There is no MAF in this application, just MAP so no screen filter in the way. It took me a few attempts but the idle is rock solid, even when switching on/off electrical loads. I have some other tuning questions to sort out, I'll have to start a separate thread on that.
BTW, the car is originally a US spec car, the steering column on that side helps simplify the install. Rest of the drivetrain is an RX8/MX5-NC hybrid 6-spd gearbox with custom propshaft. The exhaust was redesigned four times, the last version lost only 2hp compared to fully open yet is quiet at idle and still neighbourhood friendly at high-rpms.
One UK RX8 owner has gone the other way and put a turbo MX5 engine in his RX8.
Some other pics :
OMP tank: (coolant system uses Evans NPG rather than water)
Dual oil coolers and tilted rad:
Still got cruise control :
Dual exhausts:
It's running on an Adaptronic e1280s. I wanted this one for the built-in traction control, that taps into all four ABS signals. The oil metering is handled by an EOMP controller made by Jason Dixon.
The ECU has a lot of features, almost too clever for its own good. It needed a lot of support from Adaptronic to get it setup properly, even for a guy (not me) that has been tuning for 20+years. (Support was very good).
@ UKMIATA
I think you want the 3 air lines to be down stream of the MAF though, at least the air injector one, the other two are a lot less important. I did a catch can they way you have this one set up and the ECU had a hard time tuning around what was in essence a huge vacuum leak. It showed up by taking forever to smooth out after an ECU reset. In tuning, the fuel trims showed rich, like a vacuum leak. Then they had to adjust real time when it came off idle. .
I think you want the 3 air lines to be down stream of the MAF though, at least the air injector one, the other two are a lot less important. I did a catch can they way you have this one set up and the ECU had a hard time tuning around what was in essence a huge vacuum leak. It showed up by taking forever to smooth out after an ECU reset. In tuning, the fuel trims showed rich, like a vacuum leak. Then they had to adjust real time when it came off idle. .
There is no MAF in this application, just MAP so no screen filter in the way. It took me a few attempts but the idle is rock solid, even when switching on/off electrical loads. I have some other tuning questions to sort out, I'll have to start a separate thread on that.
BTW, the car is originally a US spec car, the steering column on that side helps simplify the install. Rest of the drivetrain is an RX8/MX5-NC hybrid 6-spd gearbox with custom propshaft. The exhaust was redesigned four times, the last version lost only 2hp compared to fully open yet is quiet at idle and still neighbourhood friendly at high-rpms.
One UK RX8 owner has gone the other way and put a turbo MX5 engine in his RX8.
Some other pics :
OMP tank: (coolant system uses Evans NPG rather than water)
Dual oil coolers and tilted rad:
Still got cruise control :
Dual exhausts:
