Smileynh

lol THIS turns into a EVO vs. Z thread. That's some funny ****.

Raptor75

I don't know, the auto crosses results I have found show the RX edging out the 350Z most the time on various courses. The Z will over power the RX on the straight aways but they seem to come up lacking in these events.

Check out these.
http://www.scca.com/Solo/Solo.asp
http://autocross.com/swdiv/Results/2...0Results-1.htm
http://autocross.com/swdiv/Results/2...ries_yep_2.htm
http://autocross.com/swdiv/Results/2...0Results-3.htm
http://www.kcrscca.org/solo/results/...-1-results.htm
http://www.kcrscca.org/solo/results/...-6-results.htm

As to the weight you are putting unknown variable into the your car with different wheels and tires. As both cars are bought stock the 350Z is still at least 200lbs heavier and it sounds like you are also comparing the lightest Z against a loaded RX. The base model RX is under 3000 lbs., I want to say 2970 but I am not sure of this number.

CarAndDriver

I think my Yugo would beat your 8.

Raptor75

I liked it better when it was a Fiat 128.

tmak26b

What crack are you smoking? The lightest 2004 RX-8 is 3025lbs, the lightest 350Z is 3180lbs. How is that 200lbs and how did you get down below 3000lbs? Go to Trusville and look for their 2004 brochure.

Autox has a lot to do with drivers. I have seen some bad drivers at the national, it's nice when you have the money to play. I am not saying the Z is always faster, but chances are that it will. Also do you know how much easier it is to drive a Z fast than it is to drive a 8 fast? The torque allows you to make mistake and not lose time.

playdoh43

uh... autocross... = driving around cones in a parking lot.. its different from racing on a race track... ... ... autocross focus on handling while a real race track test all facets of a car's performance... autocross is sort of like the 1/4 mile drag strip where they focus on 1 dimension of performance instead of race track that are designed to focus on everything. (thats why all tracks have at least a straight, curve, and techinical sections)

no pun intended on autocross or 1/4 mile drag racing, both require a lot of skills and both are fun. mad props for rx8 for dominating B stock , but comparing autox to race track is apples and oranges.

Ike

Lets see, of the top time attack Evos in the US none of them are MRs. All the Evos that have competed in One Lap are non MR models. Of the 15ish Evos at Solo2 Nats only two were MRs. Every top time attack Evo in the US started life as a GSR or RS, ditto goes for the top time attack Evos in the world (Japan). The current USTCC leading car started life as an RS. Lastly, the majority of guys posting in the motorsports section of EvoM drive GSR and RS models. Every track I've been at where Evos were running not one of them was an MR. Need any more "proof"?

In fact most serious track guys would be silly to buy the MR model. The MR, GSR, and RS, are nearly equal on a track. Why spend thousands more to get Bilsteins that you're just going to swap them out for coilovers anyways. Unless of course you really think the 6 speed has an advantage over the 5 speed, if it does it's tiny.

Do you understand how gearing works? A taller gear does not equate to better acceleration on a straight... You saying the Evo lacks topend is just a stupid statement that a lot of people make about AWD cars. I don't doubt that in triple digits a Z would pull slightly on a 03-04 stock Evo (do those really exist) but an 05 or 06 I just don't see it happening with a good driver and lack of issues with the car and weather. However, making a general statement that the Evo lacks topend based on your limited experience is asinine. My WRX lacked topend thanks to the dinky turbo and tall gearing, the Evo does not.

Now back to comparing the Z and RX-8, because we haven't done that enough

tmak26b

Are any of the one lap america car stock? Please, those cars are far from stock. There might be more RS/GSR compare to MR on the track, but that's because they sell so many more of them! Look at it from the ratio, not just sheer numbers. Even at the sheer number, the split is roughly 50/50 anyway.

Do I not know gearings? Gee, I think I know enough that the EVO runs out of gear. How are you going to accelerate when you don't have the gears? This is especially true on the 4 speed cars. I hope you do know they are basically using overdrive at speeds over 110 right?

Go on the race track, slip behind the fast cars and see what is going on. Talk is cheap, show what you know.

9291150

I want to see this track day. tmak's 350Z vs. Ike's Evo. Ike's heavily modded Evo should kill the Z, but he who has the biggest mouth usually...

You guys live near eachother?

Ike

So we go from this...

To this...

You're reeling and you're still just pulling numbers out of your ***. No mention of stock or not stock was mentioned, you just made the completely wrong and general statement that the Evo has no topend.

There isn't a roadcourse in the country where anything but an insanely modded Evo would run out of gear. So no, you don't know gears. If anything the tall 6th gear in the Z hurts it down the straights.

mysql101

Yeah, but you miss the point Ike! You never know when you're crusing down the middle of the salt lake flats in a Z, and meet up with an Evo.

Ike

True, but I'll just flip my hazards on at 165mph and declare teh win!

Angel Gabrial

16 pages some one stop the madness

Ike

Counting is hard, huh?

Raptor75

Silly me thinking those trade magazines know more then you, what was I thinking. You do realise that the trade magazine have all rated the RX-8 GT with power seats, sunroof, and other accessorise.....guess what.....these parts have mass and when mass is applied to the gravitational pull or say the Earth they have weight. Are you with me so far. Now lets say you take these parts off the car, guess what the car weighs less.

Motor Trend 2003 350z weight 3225 lbs.

This puts you at 200 lbs more then the RX...hmmm now if I am correct on the base model RX being about another 35 to 50 lbs lighter, that puts you at 235 to 250 lbs more. Hmmmm, care for a hit from my crack pipe?


So based on your statement I am to assume that the better Autox drivers prefer the RX-8 because it seems to dominate the Z 80% of the time from the results I have viewed. Never said the Z is not easier to drive, HP can make up for a multitude of errors which makes the autoX results all the more interesting. Now before you get your undies all in a knot I understand that the Z's superior HP allows it to have the upper hand at the track. I am simply pointing out that once the HP advantage is nullified the RX's can more then hold it's own with the Z.

tmak26b

Stupid, you don't even get into 6th gear in the Z unless you race above 140mph. With a stock Z, I can't think of too many race tracks in this country that a stock car actually hit that speed. I am not familar with the tracks out west, but there are very few that you can even come close to 130mph on the east coast. Maybe Watkins Glen without the chicane and using the long course? VIR is the closest I know, perhaps Sebring or maybe Daytona.

Both the Z and the EVO will pull to redline all day long in top gear, but what point is it if it takes the entire length of the Gobi Desert to do it? As a general rule of thumb, you want your RPM to be at peak torque when you come down to the next gear. 6th gear too tall? I am sorry, but only cars with short gears race in OVERDRIVE. 6th gear on the Z is slow, but you know why? To cover the speed range of the 5th gear in the Z, the EVO has to use 6th (on the MR). Lastly, I hope you do know the EVO revs to 7 something, but it doesn't make that much power up there.

Oh really, gears don't matter? Ask the guys with the early 90s Vette (I think they are called LT1). Ask them what happen when they go from 4th to 5th gear.

Please, only argue if you can

tmak26b

I hope you do know that the test cars are usually not production cars, they are given to magazines by the manufactures. The only place I know of that actually buy their own cars is Consumer Reports. It's not uncommon to get a car that is different than what is shown in the showroom. I don't know about the weight of the RX-8, but they are rated 3025lbs in the 2004 sales brochure. Go get a copy if you can't see it, what would you rather trust? An official press release or a magazine? THat's your choice.

As far as the Z goes, I HAVE one and I weighed one. You going to argue with me about the weight of one? You have got to be kidding me. 3225lbs for a Z is not uncommon, especially for a touring model. Matter of fact, that's what the track or touring is rated at roughly. My car was in the high 3100 range and the other cars were in the low 3200 range. (I am talking about pre 2006 models)

Before I argue about your last point, I honestly do like RX-8. If you read my other posts, I can tell you they are both similar yet very different. The Z is definitely a better track car while the gap at autox will be closer. I still honestly believe the Z can edge out under most condition unless the track narrows up.

As far as autox result, you do know a right team is needed to win right? Also one of the biggest problem with the Z under race condition, CAMBER AND CASTER ARE NOT ADJUSTABLE in the front! They are going to ahve a tough time in quick transition, of course most people wouldn't know because they don't know the whole truth behind the car. Lastly, autox people are very easily influenced. People pick cars because they look competitive in the national result, they don't do it base on how the car drives or rides.

Just to add a quick note, I have been dominating the BS or even all of stock classes in one of the bigger autox clubs here in New England? It doesn't mean my car is perfect, it only means my competition sucks. THat's why I prefer to compare on a race track where the course is almost always the same, much easier to compare that way.

tmak26b

It's not necessary, I will post my times.

1:02.9 at Lime Rock
1:00.8 at Pocono North
1:59.9 at Mt. Tremblant (on Azenis)
1:40.4 at Mosport (on Azenis)

All done with a stock 350Z with just race pads and half worn RA-1s. Have a shot with a stock EVO with the same mods, I will wait for the result.

I will be instructing at VIR, but I don't think I get to time myself officially. I would gladly run with him too if he desires.

Ike

If you ever make it up to the midwest I'll gladly run with you. That is if I can stop spening money on my house and get some new track tires... However, I have no clue what your times have to do with what we're debating.

Lastly, you telling me what an Evo revs to is a silly. You're quite wrong about power, they make very good power near redline. Usually only down about 20whp at 7200rpms compared to peak HP. With simple mods and a tune Evos often make their peak HP just before redline, mine does... Once again, stop talking about stuff you are clueless about.

tmak26b

I think the debate just ended. Both cars dyno roughly at 235-240whp (dyno proven 239rwhp hp here thank you very much), a 20hp loss would show why the Z can inch on a stock EVO at the top end. Thanks for trying, but you might want do some research.

The times sure matter, you kept saying how much better the EVOs are. Prove it! I will be at Road America racing next year, I would not be afraid to show my time.

Why are you comparing a stock car to a modded cars? I can do a lot more if I mod my car too, but then you will be comparing apples to oranges. Is is a standard procedure for guys to make up for short comings by modding the car? Even the RX-8 guys don't do that.

I am clueless, we will let others be the judge of that.

9291150

Holly ****! 1:40 at Mosport? Is that the long track? Thats even slightly faster than me...on my sportbike!

Raptor75

All I'm trying to say is that when you look at both cars on the street as bought in 2004 the Z is over 200lbs heavier. The new model is over 300lbs heaver. The fact that you have switched wheel and shed equipment makes the comparison irrelevant. You could also put lighter tires and wheels on the RX as well as removing all tire repair kits, tools, floor mats, ect.... and drop maybe another 45 lbs of weight. Now if you take the base model and do this your still looking at the Z being well over 200lbs heavier. Additionally to be fair you really need to weigh both cars on the same scale. You are also making the assumption that the scale is accurate, which it very well maybe. Can't you see you have way to many variables involved here to make the statement you do. I have the Consumer report that featured both these cars and I do believe they weighed them both. I will look it up tonight and post. I think we can both agree that this should be an accurate weighing of both cars.

As for the AutoX, I will admit that you are far more experienced then I am in these events but when you look at a lot of the results posted the RX-8 pretty constantly beats out the Z. This is simple statistics and with enough sampling will paint a pretty accurate picture.

The fact that CAMBER AND CASTER ARE NOT ADJUSTABLE are not adjustable in the Z which hurts it on the autoX is the same as saying the RX's weak torque hurts it on the track. They are both limitation of the respective cars no more no less. I like both cars and agree the Z's HP advantage will allow it to have the edge on a track but I also believe the RX's superior weight and nimbleness give it an edge in autoX and the results seem to prove this out.

playdoh43

that just means your skillz on the sportbike sucks big hairy donkey *****
j/k i dont even have a bike what kinda bike do you have?

strokercharged95gt

I raced my friends 350Z Auto from a roll. I jumped out to a car length lead because of my MT and being able to get in the revs quicker. from 50-100mph (on a race track of coarse) i jumped a car at about 60mph and by a 100 mph car he passed me and was about 1 car ahead. I was driving the **** out of the car two. So in short u will lose to an auto Z even if u are powershifting the **** out of it. Cars were both stock with 2 passengers.

AirlockRX

You guys keep me snickering...