93RedX7

Good point. The RX-8 is a gorgeous car with great handling, style, ergonomics, etc. So it's down a few hp. If someone really likes it, 9hp won't matter. Use the $500 to get the ECU played with, or a better exhaust. (whatever the culprit is) Granted Mazda should have been a bit more forthcoming with the info, mistakes happen, and I'm sure some at the top is going to get their *** chewed by Ford. Hopefully, the 2005 will see some improvement, and God willing, we'll see a high powered 4th gen RX-7.

BlueAdept

So long as the *** chewing isn't of the form... "That damn rotary engine, I knew it'd be a load of trouble... we're not funding it again."

canzoomer

When Mazda does the Right Thing, and announces to us what steps they paln to take to FIX the problem.

In other words when they start thinking with their engineers, and not with their lawyers.

93RedX7

Another good point. Then again, it's not like Ford has any room to talk. Cobra fiasco anyone?

Zaphod

Once again, nothing is broken, so there's nothing to fix.

Racer X-8

Gotta agree with you.

The torque/hp curves that have been posted look great until 6250 rpm or so. Up until then, they climb just as expected. Then, they get lumpy & level-out & head downhill too soon & too gradually for a typical curve. Am I wrong on this?

So, the engine is not functioning correctly. (<---that's a "period")

Mazda must fix the malfunction. (<---another "period")

Lawyers, money, not even guns will fix that. (<---another "period")

edit: Oooh! I get to start page 33! :D :p

msrecant

What you say is not precisely true. From all actual evidence published in this forum the car is really somewhere between 210 and 225 HP (generously speaking). If Mazda doesn't address this fact, the RX-8 will always have the deserved stigma of being a "marketing hype" car. I don't think this will be good for either Mazda's or the RX-8's reputation in the long run. There are too many cars out there that reliably meet the manufacturer's claims.

Now Mazda can address this issue by simply admitting to the lower HP and then get back to selling the car. Optionally, they can justify the 238 HP claim by providing us with a solid, verifyable technical explanation of why the RX-8 will always read-low on standard dynos. Another possibility is that they can make a technical change so you can take your car to the local dyno and measure 195-205 whp.

Bottom line, they need to do something so is I don't think this is an issue we should just drop.

That said, let me say further that on the buy-back issue I agree with you 100%. The car is the car and it is not going to change any time soon. Complaining that Mazda "owes" us something is not productive. Everyone needs to choose and then move on.

canzoomer

Oh please, get off it.
They already admitted to 9hp, so you are uninformed at best.

Their USA spokesman already stated in the press that they were forced to use an ECU setup that cost power.
This is all documented by now, as are multiple dyno runs, and GTech runs, clearly showing around 170 to 180hp at the wheels.
That matches up perfectly with a car with an ECU with a Euro4 map, with 230PS ( 228hp) output, so there is not a darned thing left to be debated on this subject.

So let's tak about the options for a solution and get on with life, and you can go back to your little corner and live in your personal sea of denial.

I just had a nice chat with the lady I have been dealing with at Mazda Canada.
She is really professional and courteous. Kudos to "Marie"

We talked and i explained that I am not really interested in the money or the buy-back, and would much rather they address the missing 20+hp, and fix it with an engineering solution.

She told me that if I wanted to express this to Mazda Canada I should write to :

Mazda Canada
Product Planning
400 - 305 Milner Avenue
Scarborough, ON
M1B 3V4

My letter is going by courier today.
Once I finish writing it I will post it here.
I believe that most of us would rather get what we were sold and expected,

Squidward

have you forgotten that this is simply a rating mistake, and that the performance ratings which we knew about when we got the car has not changed????

It is YOU who is not informed, DUDE.

it is you who is in a state of denial..

canzoomer

Have a REALLY Nice Day!

93RedX7

Not being an RX-8 owner and all, maybe my opinion isn't regarded as highly as others, but I see a big problem here. And I'm not even talking about the car. All you owners, and others, are bitching at each other when you should be bitching at Mazda. Just a thought.

nk_Rx8

When will people stop taking time to read posts that they have absolutely no interests in and comment also?

canzoomer

Tell me about it.
A number of us are on these forums trying to share information, and maybe form a concensus, and another equally large number are hanging around saying what wondrful people Mazda are, and how the rest of us are morons for saying bad things about Mazda.

There are times when you really wonder why people are such suckers for punishment.

I don't know why they hang around these lists if they are so happy-happy, but maybe they get some kind of sick pleasure in it.
Or, more likely, just in case we do get some good news, maybe they want to leach off that.

Who knows?

Leprechaun

How do you know they haven't changed? The only reason anyone knows about the HP is because owners went out and dyno'd their cars and came up with the 170WHP, which is horrible.

Have you taken your car to the track yet? Please post timeslips. And post your skidpad results, etc etc etc, while you're at it.

The Rx-8 is a sharp looking car, no doubt. But it seems to have alot less "sports car" in it than the mags and Mazda had everyone believe. And ouch, $31k for a sharp looking sports sedan is a bit much.

1stRX8

Is it possible to KILL this thread? Maybe starting one that posts names and numbers of responsible parties at Mazda. BOOSTD7 is making a significant effort at that.

RX-8 Zoomster

Before this thread is killed, my 2 cents.

I posted this on another thread, so some of you may have seen this before:

I think Mazda fudged a little on the HP. I believe it was all marketing.

So lets say that the car originally put out 238 HP all along (at the crank people) and before they had to modify for emissions. So marketing says, let's up the advertised number to the greatest margin possible legally, which was 5%. That took it to 250 HP. A figure that looks good to compare against S2000 and other cars people may be cross-shopping.

Now production happens. It goes to US. ports and now the emissions fiasco happens. Because of emissions, the car is now putting out a "real" 226 at the crank (only 12hp loss from 238 because of emissions). Because of this same margin of legality 5%, marketing takes that same optimistic approach and now restates the HP at 238 (226 * 1.05%). Is it within their legal 5%? Yes.

So now we get this dyno results of anwhere from 160 to high as 188 depending on make and whoever runs the test. Let's see, Mazda originally said you should expect about 17% drive train loss. Let's do the math. Take that "real" 226 at the crank, not the optimistic 5% margin, and take 17 % of that. 38.4 HP loss. Subtract that from the 226 and what do you get - 187.6. Bingo! I seem to recall a figure, extremely close on a dyno.

Conspiracy? No. Deception? Not legally. Marketing strategy? Yes.

A lot of companies fudge figures (within legal boundaries) to gain a sales advantage. I see what they were trying to do.



Now let me point out, and don't get me wrong. Sure I would have been "happier" if the HP was greater. However, I feel very satisfied and content, thus far, with the power I have. And look forward to the potential of this car. Especially when one can recover the HP's lost from emissions (see above), and Mazda's 4.6% fudge factor. IMO, I see mods that can easily recover 20+ HP's by ECU remappings, exhaust, etc.



Ok now the issue of a number of peoples' problems - low MPG's, performance lags, etc. Here's my two cents for this....

Mazda spent quite a few years in the development of the Renesis and this car. This is a fine-tuned engine. Air, fuel, timing, throttle, electronics, exhaust, drivetrain, etc. All working together. Engineered over a long period of time, to get a perfect blend of performance, fuel economy, etc. Ok, now Mazda has this "perfect" car and ships it out to the U.S. ports. Upon landing, surprise! U.S. emission mongrels say it has to be "a green machine". Icehole Bastiges! Anyway, in order to meet those emissions, Mazda has to detune the engine. Now, Mazda has a couple of weeks to research, remap an ECU, and whatever other changes that has to be done, produce them, ship them out to the ports, install them, and "hope to hell" that these reflashed ECU's work "ideally" with the other parts to give you that perfect engine performance again. And doing all this, trying to meet a July deadline, because us owners are bitching for our cars. Hmmm. Years and years of development vs. a few weeks of development. Jeez, no wonder the cars have fuel problems, RPM lags, etc. IMO, Mazda engineers are working right now on how to better "tune" the ECU and other engine parts to work harmoniously together like before. I'm being an optimist, but I feel Mazda will release some fixes to get these cars running better.

Ok, this may all be speculation, but it sure as hell sounds more feasable than all these other 33 pages of comments, opinions, speculations, and conspiracy theories.

Rant over - Now the moderator needs to kill this thread before somebody gets bent out of shape with my opinions, accepts them for all facts and starts an argument just for the sake of it.

canzoomer

So, what you are saying is you still would have bought the car, at this price, and delay, if Mazda advertised it with 226HP Great! For those of us who bought it based on reports/specs/etc. it is a bit of a drag. Will I keep it? Still not sure. One day i say "no way, I don't support lying bastards!" The next I say "But I love the car." The other real bitch of it is that I used to have a Nissan, and i **KNOW** the local Nissan dealers, and to a certain degree Nissan Canada are equal scumbags as Mazda Canada. Other than the Q35C? I dunno, the Mercedes C320 Sport Coupe is attractive, but today I am thinking "that is a car my parents would buy" So, who knows?

Quote:

Ok now the issue of a number of peoples' problems - low MPG's, performance lags, etc. Here's my two cents for this....

Mazda spent quite a few years in the development of the Renesis and this car. This is a fine-tuned engine. .... Upon landing, surprise! U.S. emission mongrels say it has to be "a green machine".

... no wonder the cars have fuel problems, RPM lags, etc. IMO, Mazda engineers are working right now on how to better "tune" the ECU and other engine parts to work harmoniously together like before. I'm being an optimist, but I feel Mazda will release some fixes to get these cars running better.

Ok, this may all be speculation, but it sure as hell sounds more feasable than all these other 33 pages of comments, opinions, speculations, and conspiracy theories.

Maybe not so much of speculation.
Got a call today.
Maybe more lies, but they claim they ARE working on it..
I told the person that I would be happy to waive the $500, buyback, "free" service, etc., if they simply committed to a letter than within one year they would offer me a free fix to get the power back, even if it meant a bit more noise. Let's face it, this thing is TOO quiet!

All in all, I DO believe that the Mazda engineers are quite capable. How many other small companies tackle projects like this, with all the tech involved, AND do things like 4 wheel active steering, Wankels, etc.. ?
Mazda has to remember they have an engineering heritage, and let the engineers do their jobs, with the lawuers bound and gagged in the corner. At times like this "Kill the Lawyers" becomes more and more plausible.. mutter..mutter..

Skyline Maniac

Frankly I have no idea how you can somehow put all those numbers together and magically come up with a 170-180whp dyno. Just know that in the end, the dyno number is still there and it's not going to get any higher whatever you want to believe. If Mazda's 250ps machine performs exactly the same as a 220hp machine, then good for them. I still don't buy the new 238hp claim, but that's all irrelevent now. btw: Zoomster, for someone who doesn't care about the hp ratings, you sure spend a lot of time reply to these threads and coming up with mathematical theories.


Anyhow, to sum up 30+ pages of OPINIONS and GUESSES: Believe in whatever you want so long as it makes you happy~ In the end, there is only one fact and it hasn't changed since day one - Power is simply not there, and Mazda refuses to tell us exactly why. If you guys really care about getting this fixed - instead of spending hours posting here, start writting letters to Mazda USA, Mazda Japan, engineers, medias and lawyers to get this situation fixed. Arguing over these issues on the forum won't solve any problems~

khoney

I think you mean 'advertised horsepower' - to say that 'power is simply not there' is a bit of a hyperbole.

RX-8 Zoomster

"Skyline",

IGNORE



People,

When one can drive the vehicle and give an honest opinion that person would have more respect on this forum. Until that time, we should just start ignoring their posts that are nothing more than provocation. Instead of being forced into some senseless argument with the trolls and flamers, just post a IGNORE

And to the deaf, dumb, and blind doubters out there, I am perfectly happy with my car even if it has less HP than the G35c which I cross shopped. Please accept the fact that we like the cars we have, to the same degree as you like your cars. Because we chose this car over yours is not a invitation for you to flame our purchase. We deserve respect.

In closing, IMHO, I think "Skyline" spends too much time arguing the issues, not me. Especially for someone who does own the RX-8, never driven one, and will never own one.

Funny how he is so drawn into our forum. And how he takes figures, comments, opinions and facts out of context to somehow support his negative point of view of the RX-8. Sounds like a bit of jealousy to me.

pelucidor

If that really happened (last minute emmissions problem at port) then it would be FAR EASIER for Mazda to just remap the ECU to the Euro Stage 4 settings (already researched, tested and available) which are far tougher than any US requirements, and giving about 228hp.

But I don't believe that is the answer.

Racer X-8

THe skies have definitely been cloudy a lot these last few days. I actually think it must be a bit of orgasmic.

There IS a button beneath everyone's ID, called "REPORT". It wouldn't be the first time I've tried using it, but I think it's broken...

edit: Darn, pelucidor. I thought I was gonna start page 34 too! Who says 228?

RX-8 Zoomster

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm happy with the performance. The number 238 is just a number for marketing purposes, IMO. I feel sorry for those that bought the car based on a spec sheet or report, instead of how it performed. They are missing the big picture. If unfortunately you are one of those people, I am sorry, and in all due respect, get your money back. You obviously are not happy. I expect you will proabably use the buyback, and repurchase something more to your liking.


I agree. It will be nice to get more information. It would be less stressful for those that are undecided on their options.


Again I agree. I always did admire Mazda for their ingenuity, engineering and their ''fun to drive automobiles".

As for the lawyers, and no offense to those member who are lawyers, where are they? I'll be standing in line with many others with my Glock 9mm in my hand waiting for my chance. :D

Maximus

Thats a sweeping statement you just made. Do you actually own the car and drive it on a daily basis? Is this coming from your daily RX8 driving experience?

RX-8 Zoomster

pelucidor ,

I see your logic. Did we actually get the Euro 3 ECU's? Does someone out there know the part #'s of the Euro 3 and Euro 4 and verify which one we got. Maybe we ended up with the Euro 4 afterall. There probably was a thread stating which one we had, but I don't recall. Too many threads.