Mazda admits power deficiency!
08-26-2003, 11:04 AM
#451
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Everyone here has waited a LONG time with there pre-orders for this car. Who gives a **** about 8 lost hp. $500 and the service costs are more then enough to cover this problem. I still am very dispointed in mazda for there re-occuring mistakes. Wake up Mazda. With hte money I save for service and gas. I'll add more then 8 hp
It is NOT 8hp. It's 25+hp. Some mild tweaking can get you your 8hp. It will take big mods to get your 25+hp. I would be very happy with $500/Maint. for 238hp. If my car is 217hp [there abouts] I want a few thousand dollars to cover significant mods to the car.
I waited as long as everyone, took delivery 7/17. Purchased the car SIGHT UN-SEEN!! Talk about loyal. Now they cheated once and are trying to cheat again with this stupid 9hp/$500 deal. ******** AT MAZDA. Truth please. The enitre truth.
08-26-2003, 11:07 AM
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So, what happens if someone DOES NOT take the $500 and free service offer and sue Mazda for for selling a 226 HP car by saying its 247 HP, thats a 21 HP deficiency ????
08-26-2003, 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Hercules
What was stated in the letter though, was 4% discrepency. So if that increases more then I expect another letter in the mail or a fix for some problems.
What was stated in the letter though, was 4% discrepency. So if that increases more then I expect another letter in the mail or a fix for some problems.
Did you already receive "the" letter? Anyone else here get one already? If it has been posted I apologize for not being able to keep up with all the posts.
08-26-2003, 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by TJRX8
Herc,
Did you already receive "the" letter? Anyone else here get one already? If it has been posted I apologize for not being able to keep up with all the posts.
Herc,
Did you already receive "the" letter? Anyone else here get one already? If it has been posted I apologize for not being able to keep up with all the posts.
http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9549
08-26-2003, 01:51 PM
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Guys, this is getting dull...
The car is what it is, it's a shame that you were mislead but Europe gets the lower powered car too, and we were expecting it (Now you still get a more powerful version)... it's a great car, and I'm sure this bickering isn't going to help the chances of us having a new RX7... so make up your mind... take the offer or sell the car back, stop worrying about it... and enjoy your car.
The car is what it is, it's a shame that you were mislead but Europe gets the lower powered car too, and we were expecting it (Now you still get a more powerful version)... it's a great car, and I'm sure this bickering isn't going to help the chances of us having a new RX7... so make up your mind... take the offer or sell the car back, stop worrying about it... and enjoy your car.
08-26-2003, 01:51 PM
#456
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Everyone, remember there are two issues. While they are related they are NOT tied together. Both issues need to be discussed and dealt with independently.
1. Missing HP Issue:
If the engine was truly 238 crank-HP it would match the S2000 pretty close on the dyno. Comparative dyno results put the car in the 210-220 HP range. I agree that, as a group, we should not let Mazda off the hook on this discrepancy. There needs to be a verifiable explanation.
On this issue I feel that regardless of buybacks and other offers, we deserve the truth, even if it is not what we want to hear. It may turn out that either the engine ia only 210 HP or that there really is a 25% drive-train-loss vs a 17% dtl on Nissans, Hondas, and Porches. Regardless, someone (at Mazda) needs to be straight with us.
2. Buyback/$500+maint/ripoff Issue:
This is the "Are you happy with the car?" issue. For Horsepower-centric people we know you are not happy, however, you need to decide if you can live with the bogus HP number(s). We may get that changed but it won't be easy and it won't be soon.
For performance-centric people, the issue is whether the car accelerate, handles and stops as originally advertised, regardless of HP.
On this issue, unlike the HP issue, I still see no hard evidence that the car is not accelerating, stopping and handling as Mazda and the car mags said it would. For me, driving the car matches what I thought was promised and I am thrilled to take the freebies. However, others may decide differently.
1. Missing HP Issue:
If the engine was truly 238 crank-HP it would match the S2000 pretty close on the dyno. Comparative dyno results put the car in the 210-220 HP range. I agree that, as a group, we should not let Mazda off the hook on this discrepancy. There needs to be a verifiable explanation.
On this issue I feel that regardless of buybacks and other offers, we deserve the truth, even if it is not what we want to hear. It may turn out that either the engine ia only 210 HP or that there really is a 25% drive-train-loss vs a 17% dtl on Nissans, Hondas, and Porches. Regardless, someone (at Mazda) needs to be straight with us.
2. Buyback/$500+maint/ripoff Issue:
This is the "Are you happy with the car?" issue. For Horsepower-centric people we know you are not happy, however, you need to decide if you can live with the bogus HP number(s). We may get that changed but it won't be easy and it won't be soon.
For performance-centric people, the issue is whether the car accelerate, handles and stops as originally advertised, regardless of HP.
On this issue, unlike the HP issue, I still see no hard evidence that the car is not accelerating, stopping and handling as Mazda and the car mags said it would. For me, driving the car matches what I thought was promised and I am thrilled to take the freebies. However, others may decide differently.
08-26-2003, 06:22 PM
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quote from Thor:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually that looks about right to me as well. On our dyno the 350Z made 205 whp, the S2000 made 179 Whp and the RX-8 made 156 whp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 1stRX8
My RX-8 dyno'd an avg. of 180whp. Seems pretty close to the S2000 to me.
S2000's main track performance advantage - less weight.
Last edited by RX-8 Zoomster; 08-26-2003 at 06:27 PM.
08-26-2003, 06:36 PM
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Zoomster, you're comparing on different dynos.
On the dyno where the S2000 put out 180, the RX-8 put out something in the 150's. On a Dynojet, where the S2000 puts out around 200 whp, the RX-8 is putting out 175-180 whp. On my Dynapack, the RX-8 is putting out 189 whp vs. 212 whp for the S2000.
Pretty consistent deficit of more than 20 whp on multiple dynos on cars with very similar drivetrains (past the engine of course). In fact, the S2000 differential is rumored to be the same as Mazda uses (same supplier, size, etc.).
SC
On the dyno where the S2000 put out 180, the RX-8 put out something in the 150's. On a Dynojet, where the S2000 puts out around 200 whp, the RX-8 is putting out 175-180 whp. On my Dynapack, the RX-8 is putting out 189 whp vs. 212 whp for the S2000.
Pretty consistent deficit of more than 20 whp on multiple dynos on cars with very similar drivetrains (past the engine of course). In fact, the S2000 differential is rumored to be the same as Mazda uses (same supplier, size, etc.).
SC
08-26-2003, 08:03 PM
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Why do some folks here insist on not comparing the 8 to the Z? Afterall, Mazda uses the Z and the infiniti as comparison in their literature so why shouldn't we?
08-26-2003, 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by TurboSE
Why do some folks here insist on not comparing the 8 to the Z? Afterall, Mazda uses the Z and the infiniti as comparison in their literature so why shouldn't we?
Why do some folks here insist on not comparing the 8 to the Z? Afterall, Mazda uses the Z and the infiniti as comparison in their literature so why shouldn't we?
Last edited by nk_Rx8; 08-26-2003 at 08:29 PM.
08-26-2003, 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by TurboSE
Why do some folks here insist on not comparing the 8 to the Z? Afterall, Mazda uses the Z and the infiniti as comparison in their literature so why shouldn't we?
Why do some folks here insist on not comparing the 8 to the Z? Afterall, Mazda uses the Z and the infiniti as comparison in their literature so why shouldn't we?
However, on the dyno issue, the goal is to extrapolate RX-8 crank-horsepower from dyno results which report wheel-horsepower. The S2000 engine is a better comparison for this purpose than the Z due to similarities in torque level, claimed crank-HP and power-vs-rpm curve with the RENESIS engine.
08-26-2003, 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by ChurchAutoTest
Zoomster, you're comparing on different dynos.
On the dyno where the S2000 put out 180, the RX-8 put out something in the 150's. On a Dynojet, where the S2000 puts out around 200 whp, the RX-8 is putting out 175-180 whp. On my Dynapack, the RX-8 is putting out 189 whp vs. 212 whp for the S2000.
Pretty consistent deficit of more than 20 whp on multiple dynos on cars with very similar drivetrains (past the engine of course). In fact, the S2000 differential is rumored to be the same as Mazda uses (same supplier, size, etc.).
SC
Zoomster, you're comparing on different dynos.
On the dyno where the S2000 put out 180, the RX-8 put out something in the 150's. On a Dynojet, where the S2000 puts out around 200 whp, the RX-8 is putting out 175-180 whp. On my Dynapack, the RX-8 is putting out 189 whp vs. 212 whp for the S2000.
Pretty consistent deficit of more than 20 whp on multiple dynos on cars with very similar drivetrains (past the engine of course). In fact, the S2000 differential is rumored to be the same as Mazda uses (same supplier, size, etc.).
SC
My bad!
08-27-2003, 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by Maximus
So, what happens if someone DOES NOT take the $500 and free service offer and sue Mazda for for selling a 226 HP car by saying its 247 HP, thats a 21 HP deficiency ????
So, what happens if someone DOES NOT take the $500 and free service offer and sue Mazda for for selling a 226 HP car by saying its 247 HP, thats a 21 HP deficiency ????
Most courts have historically recognized a company's good faith attempts to resolve a dispute with a customer, and you can't get more "good faith" than a full refund...
08-27-2003, 09:41 AM
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Most courts have historically recognized a company's good faith attempts to resolve a dispute with a customer, and you can't get more "good faith" than a full refund...
I am waiting patiently for aftermarket ECU, intake, cat-backs, etc and the RX-8 will probably deliver 276hp like we saw in the 1st iteration of the RENESIS in the RX-01 concept car a few years ago.
08-27-2003, 09:53 AM
#466
Originally posted by 1stRX8
I am waiting patiently for aftermarket ECU, intake, cat-backs, etc and the RX-8 will probably deliver 276hp like we saw in the 1st iteration of the RENESIS in the RX-01 concept car a few years ago.
I am waiting patiently for aftermarket ECU, intake, cat-backs, etc and the RX-8 will probably deliver 276hp like we saw in the 1st iteration of the RENESIS in the RX-01 concept car a few years ago.
08-27-2003, 10:05 AM
#467
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Originally posted by neit_jnf
The RX-01 was rated at 220hp, the one that had the 276hp was the RX-EVOLV. Maybe we ended up with the RX-01's enigine after all :p
The RX-01 was rated at 220hp, the one that had the 276hp was the RX-EVOLV. Maybe we ended up with the RX-01's enigine after all :p
08-27-2003, 10:58 AM
#468
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Originally posted by BlueAdept
Guys, this is getting dull...
The car is what it is, it's a shame that you were mislead but Europe gets the lower powered car too, and we were expecting it (Now you still get a more powerful version)... it's a great car, and I'm sure this bickering isn't going to help the chances of us having a new RX7... so make up your mind... take the offer or sell the car back, stop worrying about it... and enjoy your car.
Guys, this is getting dull...
The car is what it is, it's a shame that you were mislead but Europe gets the lower powered car too, and we were expecting it (Now you still get a more powerful version)... it's a great car, and I'm sure this bickering isn't going to help the chances of us having a new RX7... so make up your mind... take the offer or sell the car back, stop worrying about it... and enjoy your car.
If you find it "dull" then don't read it.
But please quit trying to convince us that Mazda is "OK" with this approach.
08-27-2003, 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by canzoomer
Nobody is forcing you to read this topic.
If you find it "dull" then don't read it.
But please quit trying to convince us that Mazda is "OK" with this approach.
Nobody is forcing you to read this topic.
If you find it "dull" then don't read it.
But please quit trying to convince us that Mazda is "OK" with this approach.
If you think that Mazda are still not quite telling the truth... then I'd sure like to know, so we probably want some more Dyno results......
Either way, I have no opinion regarding the ethics of Mazda themselves... indeed, how much of this is Mazda US's issue... as opposed to the people who actually developed the car?
08-27-2003, 02:07 PM
#470
Mazda Says RX-8 Horsepower Overstated
Cross posting from the "Media Reaction to the HP Reduction Story..." thread:
Here's an interesting article on the HP reduction issue. The first to state a reason for the reduction.
"The spokesman says the difference comes from actual horsepower figures derived after emissions certification from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The original horsepower figures, he says, were estimates developed prior to the actual EPA certification process."
Here's an interesting article on the HP reduction issue. The first to state a reason for the reduction.
"The spokesman says the difference comes from actual horsepower figures derived after emissions certification from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The original horsepower figures, he says, were estimates developed prior to the actual EPA certification process."
08-27-2003, 11:51 PM
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Re: Mazda Says RX-8 Horsepower Overstated
247 is an awfully specific-sounding "estimate."
jds
jds
Originally posted by rex
Cross posting from the "Media Reaction to the HP Reduction Story..." thread:
Here's an interesting article on the HP reduction issue. The first to state a reason for the reduction.
"The spokesman says the difference comes from actual horsepower figures derived after emissions certification from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The original horsepower figures, he says, were estimates developed prior to the actual EPA certification process."
Cross posting from the "Media Reaction to the HP Reduction Story..." thread:
Here's an interesting article on the HP reduction issue. The first to state a reason for the reduction.
"The spokesman says the difference comes from actual horsepower figures derived after emissions certification from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The original horsepower figures, he says, were estimates developed prior to the actual EPA certification process."
08-28-2003, 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by msrecant
For performance-centric people, the issue is whether the car accelerate, handles and stops as originally advertised, regardless of HP.
On this issue, unlike the HP issue, I still see no hard evidence that the car is not accelerating, stopping and handling as Mazda and the car mags said it would. For me, driving the car matches what I thought was promised and I am thrilled to take the freebies. However, others may decide differently.
For performance-centric people, the issue is whether the car accelerate, handles and stops as originally advertised, regardless of HP.
On this issue, unlike the HP issue, I still see no hard evidence that the car is not accelerating, stopping and handling as Mazda and the car mags said it would. For me, driving the car matches what I thought was promised and I am thrilled to take the freebies. However, others may decide differently.
Since I use these reviews, as well as the simple HP and Torque numbers to help purchase, it makes it impossible to make an informed decision.
As a Canadian buyer, I also get 25% less money and 25% less extended service than americans. This makes it very clear that we are not getting a fair deal to keep the car Iassuming that the US deal is excacly fair). I do have the choice to return the car, which would be unfortunate.
