nostatic

Hey, fellow Canuck. People have, are, and will continue to compare these vehicles you mention. And if people compare the cars in their minds, then they are indeed "comparable". It's a very subjective thing. Some people can't decide between vanilla and chocolate ice cream at the supermarket because they're comparable flavors--in their opinion. Not to me though. Different as night and day. Get what I'm saying?

ChurchAutoTest

Actually, my basic math was this:

The average MY00-01 S2000 put down 212 whp on my dyno (the 2002 and up models are putting down about 5 hp more on average, but Honda never stated any change in power). The RX-8 I tested put down 189 whp. That is a deficit of 23 hp. Considering that the RX-8 was rated at 247 hp, that would mean it was producing at least 30 hp less than stated. Based on several of the 17x.x dynos from dynojets vs. the average 200 whp (dynojet) from S2000s, the deficit could be even larger. I chose to make my assessment based upon those two cars simply because the powertrains are very similar in characteristic - rpm range, power/torque output, gear ratios, differentials, etc. The Z has substantially different characteristics (much lower revving, more torque, requires beefier driveline most likely, etc.).

Zaphod, people will make the comparisons. In the case of the S2000 and RX-8, simply because the RX-8 embodies many of the same principles (in so many ways) as the S2K, but you get 4 seats instead of a folding roof - something many (most) people need/value/want since we all can't afford multiple cars.

As for the fix, "in spirit" something is broken. The balance struck between price/value/performance/etc. has been changed with the lower output (and not just the 9 hp retraction), but the equation hasn't been balanced. I could certainly live with a 210-220 hp RX-8 (I'm looking at a 200 hp TSX, so no big deal), but the price needs to be adjusted accordingly. I would pay a premium for the RWD chassis, but how much?

SC

THOR

Actually that looks about right to me as well. On our dyno the 350Z made 205 whp, the S2000 made 179 Whp and the RX-8 made 156 whp. Same rear drive, 6 speed and similar gearing as well. It is interesting that a 240 horsepower rated car (Honda S2000) makes 23 whp more than a 247 horsepower car. By that simple fact alone the RX-8 cannot be making more than approx 217 horsepower at best, or around 210 more likely. I do not believe that there is something in the RX-8's drivetrain (such as mud) that sucks up additonal loss to the wheels.

What is also interesting and a little confusing is that Mazda has rerated the automatic as well?? Why is that if the motors are different and have less ports than the 6 speed version? Could it simply be that both motors make 210 horsepower in automatic and 6 speed models and that the auto sucks up a little more power due to the torque convertor? Has anyone dynoed an automatic RX-8 yet? Now that would be interesting. Also the RX-8 makes 115 LB/foot of torque at the wheels @ 6300RPM. Less than the S2000 (no torque champion itself) but about the same as an Integra Type R (195 hp). Not good.

Thor.

BillK

I want peace in the Middle East.

I think that will come about sooner than a magical "fix" to make the RX-8 "the car that you bought."

It's not, it is what it is, nothing more, nothing less. take one of the options, either dump it or take the maintenance.

I want the 30 MPG Renesis that early projections were indicating; guess what, that's not going to happen either; you may as well ask for a reliable Ferrari. :D

Squidward

dude spare me... I bought the RX-8 because it is a sportscar that has alot more to offer than just performance, and at what I would consider a very good value. At a price range far less than any of it's competitors, you get a fully loaded, BETTER looking car.

That's what sets it apart from the rest. There are dozens of cars out there that are thousands of dollars cheaper that can out perform the 8....

Don't discredit the other things that made the RX so popular. RX is not all about performance. However, if you bought it for that very reason, you bought the wrong car and should ask for your money back.

Hercules

I am just curious... why would Mazda, as so succinctly put by most of you, lie to us about the horsepower?

They say 238hp and that's after their own internal testing. Now let's assume they are wrong again. They will have to pay out to the owners once again, won't they? Or face a law suit. Things that endanger the future of the rotary and their company.

I just fail to see what benefit it would achieve to lie about it when it's much smarter (from a business perspective) to publish the actual numbers. I can give them a pass on the first time in being wrong; it's already been admitted and only a month after the car has been launched, so it's in good time as well. They took the complaints here seriously when they were raised (say two weeks ago) and then came back with different figures, gave you the options, and left it to that.

Maybe I'm an optimist in this regard... but I fail to see there being a remote benefit to Mazda by lying about the horsepower.

Lensman

No, because if you sign the agreement for the free servicing you lose your right to sue.

wankel

I agree.

I am one to give people the benefit of the doubt, the first time.
We should band together and show support for the return of the rotary. If they are being deceptive, it will come out. If they are intentionally trying to mislead us by stating lower HP than actual, then I will change my tune and lose faith.

This forum represents the past, present and future of the rotary in America. I don't think mazda would intentionally try to mislead the core of support.

Kuf

A good lawyer and some bad PR would get around that simple contract.

Hercules

No, if you read the letter then you are being compensated for a 4% power loss, from 247 to 238. If that number changes again then the contract is null and void pertaining to the new horsepower numbers.

That's why I don't worry about it.

RobDickinson

Heard you have a +/- 5% range legaly on power in the US?

i.e. you cant sue if its quoted power minus 5%

That'd put the lower limit at 226bhp for any legalities. getting closer to the truth?

msrecant

Based on info fom ChurchAutoTest and THOR, we have two instances where the RX-8 shows 23 less HP at the wheel than the S2000. The S2000 is a good comparison as it also is a low torque engine with a very similar power curve to the RENESIS engine and both engines are supposed to be in the 240 HP range.

So, at best the RX-8 MT is around 215 HP. OK, I'm convinced that there is a bigger issue here than the 9 HP Mazda is owning up to.

Anyone else with dyno runs for both the RX-8 and the S2000?

Hercules

Then Mazda didn't have to offer anybody anything... I don't think that's right. As a business there's no point in offering buybacks and warranty deals unless of course, they are legally bound to.

revhappy

They are threading the needle. 5% of 247 = 12 HP. Thus, the legal floor they could have originally stated was 235 (BTW..going down 9 instead of 10 or more looks less significant to many people). 5% of 238 is 12 HP, the floor on this claimed HP would be 226 HP. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually lower than that, but that looks like what is going on here.

BTW...why did Mazda do such a HUGE and early advertizing campaign (giving more than likely more powerful cars to the car mags)way before the RX8 came out (where they claimed 25 MPG and 250 HP)?

Hercules

What was stated in the letter though, was 4% discrepency. So if that increases more then I expect another letter in the mail or a fix for some problems. It may come to the point where the power of the car is stated at a level where it cannot be priced for the $31,100 that I paid for it and thus, I'd be entitled to a rebate on that price.

Lensman

On reflection: even if the present owners are precluded from litigation it won't stop future owners who buy the car with window stickers saying 238bhp having a go IF the power drops again.

1stRX8

My RX-8 dyno'd an avg. of 180whp. Seems pretty close to the S2000 to me.

TomsterRX8

I believe Mazda when they say that the horsepower is now accurately measured to be 238 at the crank. My problem has always been how is it that this car seems to lose so much more power from the crank to the rear wheels than do piston engine cars? The dynos that keep popping up on this forum are 180 horses at the rear wheels. To me, this fugure FEELS accurate, given my experience with many other vehicles. So its here, where it counts, that I have a problem with this car's power. Who cares what it rates at the crank?

When the dyno readings come in at a little of 200 hp at the rear wheels, as they should with 238 at the engine, then I'll feel like I got my full money's worth.

RobDickinson

There should be no difference between rotary & piston engines past the crank. there all the same from there on in.

I thought the RX-8 was supposed to be great on the drivetrain, one piece carbon propshaft etc, and on rotarynews didt someone mention 205ish bhp at wheels?

Unless that LSD is soaking up tons of HP, I thought there was an 8 with no LDS? if so dyno that one?

ChurchAutoTest

Different type of dyno 1stRX8. Thor's numbers were from a Dyno Dynamics IIRC, and my numbers are on a Dynapack. I believe your numbers are on a Dynojet, which resides somewhere between those two (on average an S2000 puts down about 200 whp on a Dynojet).

SC

1stRX8

10-4, Copy that.

I see your point is that on the SAME dyno - an S2000 developing more than the 8 by 23hp. No wonder the S2000 I saw the other day didn't want to play - he was too busy LAUGHING at me. SUCKER.

I think I am ready for a supercharger/Turbo / re-do on the ECU.

Zaphod

But I would argue that there is not as much overlap in the audience to whom these cars are marketed as people think. IMHO, the 8 was never meant to compete head-to-head on a drag strip with the Z or the S2000. They were built for slightly different purposes, but those differences makes them incomparable for a lot of people. If all anyone was interested in was power at this price point, the 8 should have been the last vehicle you would consider of the three with or without the "missing" HP.

Pete

Everyone here has waited a LONG time with there pre-orders for this car. Who gives a **** about 8 lost hp. $500 and the service costs are more then enough to cover this problem. I still am very dispointed in mazda for there re-occuring mistakes. Wake up Mazda. With hte money I save for service and gas. I'll add more then 8 hp

Csquare4

[COLOR=crimson] Bottom line: I have to decide tomorrow to buy the RX8 31,100 list.
The the deal will be 29,000 for the GT package. This is pretty close to invoice. I have driven all the competition Honda, Maxima,G35,Acura ect. I like the package. I do not like the problems that are being talked about. I know having bought a Tundra 6 months out about new model problems. I had the minor ones. I still love the truck. I will buy the RX8, G35 or the the safe and bland Honda V6. ...<SNIP>...What to do?
COLOR]

Geez...this really sux...I have been a RX fan since I bought my '84 GSL-SE back in 1987. Really fell in love with the rotary after rebuilding that 13B engine and being blown away by the beautiful simplicity of it all.

Now I have been looking forward to this since I heard it was coming out several years ago. I even started driving my wife's 96 Camry in the interim to let *HER* have the new car in the family, waiting patiently for the '8 to hit the floors. In July, I test drove one, I fell in love all over, even though I didn't push it as hard as I wanted to. Then I found this board...and um, well, now I just don't know

I am kinda thinking now, I will wait and keep chugging along in the trusty Camry...esp. now that the 8 doesn't have as much "go" as it should, I definitely ain't paying sticker, and the dealers here I have talked to ain't budging. I would have driven one off the lot if the dealer would have come off for an "installed" $400 spare tire that I don't want nor would I keep. That discount with the $500 deal would make me move, but today his chances are over. Oh well, maybe the '04 will start seeing som 0% financing and other incentives around yearend or certainly by the time the '05 start rolling out next summer.

Thanks for all the different insights though...ain't the internet just freakin grand? Also, always remember..."Patience is a virtue".

Maximus

Mazda Announced HP = 238
There's a 5% allowance in HP figures.
Less 5% of 238HP = 11.9 HP ..........(worse case)
Actual HP = 238 - 11.9 = 226.1

Therefore, in WORSE case scenario (just an assumption but seems more likely since people are consistently getting around 180HP wheel HP):
Actual HP = 226 (approx)

HP deficiency from the original figure as advertised by Mazda:
247 - 226 = 21 HP


So, what happens if someone DOES NOT take the $500 and free service offer and sue Mazda for for selling a 226 HP car by saying its 247 HP, thats a 21 HP deficiency ????