StretchSJE

Anyone think the torque figure should have been changed, too?

Zaphod

Excuse me, but aren't we talking about *9* hp? It's plenty valid to be ticked at Mazda for being generous with this figure. But it terms of real performance, are you actually not going to purchase the car because it's missing 9 hp?

I've driven this car. I'm buying this car because of the test drive (and styling, etc.), not because of numbers on a piece of paper.

BillK

What he was saying was that he wanted to see someone who was getting 0-60 times matching the magazines, and 5.9 vs6.0 is close enough for me given Speed Racer probably likes his car and thus won't do too many 8K RPM clutch dumps...

cruzdreamer

I was told anyone who ordered the car will get the credit and free maintenance. I understand being upset and all, but if you test drove the car and were happy with it, does it really matter about the actual hp #'s? Is it a guy thing in regards to speed etc? I think the car is awesome and people love the handling, looks and it's adequate speed for it's weight. I do think it is crummy if the deception was purposeful and that is false advertising and they need to pay the price!! I have a 2002 Protege5 and love it and it has only 130hp....so they say! I did not care it was the most fun car with the best handling I have ever had. Anybody want to buy my Protege5....sweet red one! 2 years and no problems...just fun! Asking $12,500.

Randy

Yes. Insurance bastards are charging me for a high horsepower to weight car based on Mazda's false advertising. I'm betting that insurance companies are even slower than Mazda at adjusting for the actual power-to-weight. Also, who runs the car they waited for 6 months to 8500 rpm with 12 miles on the car and can tell the difference between 250 and 225 hp during their test drive?

Keeper

Actually that's part of the problem, because the dyno's show that the car is clearly missing more than 9hp (the figures are probably closer to 20-25hp) -- Mazda is only owning up to a 9hp defecit.

I think anyone who believes that both the Auto and the manual "lost" exactly 9hp each (even though they both have different power curves and redlines) while leaving the vehicle performance numbers unchanged is incredibly gullible. But that's just my opinion.

If I can't trust them to publish accurate stats of their car, how can I trust that the Renesis is as solid as Mazda claims, or how can I trust that they won't try and screw people over on waranty claims?

The people who aren't all up in arms about this have a LOT of trust in Mazda, trust that I don't share.

msrecant

The issue isn't trust in Mazda. It is whether the car performs satisfactorily, not the HP rating on the sticker. I intended to buy a car that seats 4 adults, handles like a sports car, stops on a dime and does 0 to 60 in 6 sec ... all for under $32,000. From every review I have read, every rx8forum post I have read and after 5 weeks of living with the car I feel Mazda has delivered on that.

RX-8 Zoomster

The dynos show the HP rating at the rear wheels. The now revised 238HP is HP at the flywheel. How many times must we go over this fact.

Mazda is only owning up to 9hp deficit. 247HP - 9HP = 238HP.

The performance numbers haven't changed. People are getting 0-60 times in the low 6's, like before. The only things that has changed is the stated HP number and the perception of less power in peoples minds (placebo affect). And those people are just hung up with a number.


Well that's your perogative. If you already own the car, Mazda gave you an opt out to buyback the car. If you don't already own one, and don't trust them, then don't bother thinking of buying from Mazda if that's how you feel.

I and many others feel much differently.

RX-8 Zoomster

Ditto! I whole heartedly agree.

Napboy

What the hell are you talking about? Stop being condescending and read what the guy has to stay before you stomp on him. The dynos are stating around 180-184 at the wheels. What does that translate at the flywheel with 17% drivetrain loss? That's 217 at the flywheel. That's an 30hp difference from the stated 247.

Buger

I'm a little late to joining this discussion but there are good points on both sides. Trust is an issue for some people while for other people, the hp figure is just a number that doesn't have much to do with the enjoyment that they feel from the car. Obviously this is a very emotional subject that can cause tension on both sides.

I was personally very surprised with Mazda's claims of less horsepower without a further explanation. With the gtech estimated curves that came out before the announcement, it did appear that the dynamic effect intake for the auxiliary path was there yet the torque really drops off a lot [at high rpms] compared to the Mazda released torque curves in the presskit. I am still hoping for more information on the subject but I'm not sure if it is coming in the near future.

This problem is probably the last thing that Mazda wanted to happen for the return of the rotary. It will cost Mazda some $ and more importantly, it will cost Mazda the trust of some people who were potential customers. I'll write a bit more on this subject a little later.

Brian

RockyMts

I doubt that this will affect my car-buying decision, although it is very disappointing. Who knows what else might be wrong? The RX-8 is still a nice car, but I'm not filled with trust for Mazda right now.

RX-8 Zoomster

Napboy,

If I misread his post, then I apologize to Keeper. His statement wasn't that clear to me regarding his dyno/ 9HP deficit.

Any you? Relax. Boy does somebody need a nap. Nighty night.

Jims5543

iTrader: (1)

Has anyone considered telling Mazda to shove its offer and FIX the car like Ford FIXED the Cobras and got their customers the HP they claimed they would get??

I have a vested interest in how you handle this. I know some of you are new to the rotory world trust me 20+HP is something you can feel. I drove my RX-7 to a dyno with 190 RWHP needing to tune my S-AFC real bad after we were done I had 225RWHP and the car felt like an animal. I can only say you don't know what your missing. The smooth linear pull the rotary gives off is decieving. My car felt like it pulled hard all the way to 7K RPM when in actuality the HP dropped hard a 6500RPM. It sure didn't feel like that.

I feel Mazda OWES you what you paid for not just a pay off to shut up and pretend its O.K. My interest here is that I want a RX-8. I am waiting for the Mazdaspeed addition in hopes that it will be more interesting. Accepting Mazda's offer just tells them that consumers can be bought and they really dont need to deliver what was advertised.

You have to wonder how the conversation went down with the big wigs. I mean they had to come up with a dollar figure that they knew you would snap up and shut up for. Dont be chumps organize and force them to deliver what they advertised just like Ford did.

Right now I have more respect for Ford for how they handled their Cobra fiasco.

RX-GR8

i'm in the same boat(ship) as you. no pun intended. I laid out $1000 non refundable payment so i think i(you) have plenty of room to negotiate. if not Mazda corporate will be getting a call direct. i'm still going to get the car but i'm going to try and get the free maintenance and $500 back deal.

TJRX8

Based on the above you should without a doubt IMHO opt for the buy-back. You don't know if you will get a trouble free car the second time but you know 100% you don't have one now.

TJRX8

I think you should get the deal and be able to negotiate a little better price as well.

That is a GSX right? How do you like it?

1stRX8

Yup. I am a bit insulted. I believe there is only 9hp missing as long as Mazda admits a problem with the drivetrain as well. My car averaged 180whp. Assuming 238hp.. would be a 24% loss. Sounds like super glue in the tranny.

Has Paul Yaw posted any stock dyno runs of his Renesis?

I still think its a fun car. I paid for before I ever drove it. I have been waiting to own a brand new rotary powered car since 1985. I am proud to own the most powerful NA street legal rotary ever produced. The HP/liter is still higher than any other street car.

I will chip it, blow it, modify it, until it has 375+hp anyway. It's only money.

RX-GR8

i liked it past tense. it only had 67,000 miles on it and it was a beautifully performing car. only problem i had was i had the fuel pump replaced twice because i used mobil gas and found out that mobil gas had an additive that ate the fuel pump. i sold it on ebay in the beginning of august because i was told by my local mazda dealer that the 8's would be hitting shore by then. they weren't so now i'm driving a crappy loaner until it does.

Racer X-8

Funny thing. I was driving home in my daily driver (MX-6) on a secondary highway, when I just happened to be fortunate enough to get behind a Corvette. I dunno how many horses he had, but his chrome-tipped tailpipes reminded me of some kind of wind instrument (church organ maybe?). Now, I'm real sure he felt real good about his steed, girl in passenger seat, went real slow like the kind that says "don't mess with me". Every once in a while though, I guess to show off to that chick, he opened her up. Sounded like he was shooting a machine gun at me! Aack!
Well, you know, I just wanted to keep up to admire her rear end so much (the car's). You know how derned perty thay are!
So, there I was in my, what, 130 hp maybe, MX-6, right behind that sweet rear end. As soon as I could figure (yeah, I was anticipating just such a thing), I floored it too. To my utter shock & horror, I kept up pretty darned well! OK, the show was pretty short-lived, maybe 5 seconds duration, but, heck! He went from 2 car lengths to 6 car lengths. Maybe up to 80 mph .vs. my 70 mph. He never acknowledged my presence back there. I anticipated that too. This happened three times in the distance of about 6 miles down that secondary road. Every time he sufficiently exceeded the speed limit, he slowed down to 50 mph (maybe to keep the rattling down to a minimum). Right away, I would get right back to that 2 car length gap.
If all you want is a Corvette killer, big deal.
I'm keeping my RX-8 cuz it's got to be a Corvette killer. As a matter of fact, I am certain without a shadow of a doubt that it's a Corvette killer. If you don't understand this, forget Mazda, hot shot, & go get yourself an EVO.

You know, I took the night off from this forum due to a total lack of sleep from the other nights earlier. Boy, did I ever pick the wrong night to take off from here!!! The earth has done shattered & the sky done fell right down to the ground!

I've just now spent the whole night doing just one thing. That's trying to read this 18 page thread all the way through. I have lost my religion twice. The first time, I went out with my son on some lame excuse to run to the store (in the 8, this being the whole point of it.) This time, I'm gonna tell you that not only are you the reason for my first fall from grace (after reading the post quoted above), you are also the reason for this second one (with a few minor ones in between).

You are a troll. I went to that sorry excuse of a website to read what our fellow rotary comunity members had to say. I will never subscribe to that forum. I will just make one thing perfectly clear (if a person who would be ranked in category 2 can make anything perfectly clear). Go back from whence you came, take your ilk with you and don't bother coming back.

And that goes for the rest of you trolls out there. If we lived in a perfect world, there would be a way to keep trolls out of forums.

TJRX8

I don't have a scanner either so I will quote the letter that arrived with our Thermos/mug pre-order gift.
Not that I care but I just wanted to include this for argument sakes.

Keeper

And 238 - (238 * 17% [expected losses on a roller dyno]) should translate crank hp to whp, which would be 198. Which is still about 20hp off what people are getting to the wheels. Estiminating aside, when all is said and done what matters isn't the rated crank hp -- it's what gets put to the pavement, and the 8 is currently falling REALLY short in that department.

It remains to be seen if there is a certain mileage point where the engine will loosen up a bit more and produce more power down the road. If this doesn't happen before 10k miles I won't be holding my breath for it ever to happen.

Mazda claims the performance numbers haven't changed from what they advertised. Which of course begs the question, did they do their testing with the reduced power model or the Jspec model? If the numbers were real, then they intentially lied about the power output of the car from the get-go. If they didn't intentionally list the wrong power output because it was a 'recent' development, then their performance numbers will now be different and they are deceiving people now when they claim the numbers haven't changed. The only thing I can conclude is that there is some level of deception occuring, hence the lack of trust.

So far all we have are mag numbers from preproduction cars (which may or may not have been running with 247hp), a guy with g-tech numbers, a couple of people with stop watches timing themselves, and one guy who knows a guy who ran a 14.7 at the strip. Results from a passenger using a stopwatch aren't going to be accurate to 0.1s resolution; I don't trust g-tech numbers (a g-tech is good for comparative purposes, but is not a subsitute for a real run at a track); and I'd like to see more than just one person make a pass at the strip to determine if the numbers really are attainable (and post relevent information about the conditions, altitude, their "skill" level, etc).

And other can feel differently if they want, but it's incredibly ignorant to flame people for having a different opinion on the matter. And for what it's worth, if I had to buy a car today the 8 would not be on my list because of this situation -- I might change my opinion as the car gets older and more is known about it, but right now that's the way *I* feel about it. Taking an elitist attitude to someone with a different opinion than yourself isn't going to help anyone.

THOR

Something I found on Mazda's UK web site:


"The RENESIS power-train will be available in two variations: the High Power specification (177kW (231PS) @8200rpm with a 9000 rpm limit) and the Standard Power unit (141kW(192PS)@7000rpm with a 7500 rpm limit) for regular driving but with superb drivability. Click here to see the Mazda RX-8 Technical Specifications."


So in England which has far less stringent emission testing than California the Renesis can only muster 231PS, or 228 horsepower? So in California does that equal 239 horsepower? Probably not. In fact as I have stated before with the dyno outputs being seen this car is only making approx 210-215 horsepower. A local RX-8 went to Sears Point raceway and ran a 15.3 1/4 mile at 90MPH. Sounds like about 210 horsepower to me and not a 9 horsepower deficit as Mazda stated.

Thor.

Jims5543

iTrader: (1)

I am not going to fight with you bud. I will say this though think of how much fun it would be to pull up alongside then blow by mr. corvette. Thats what my 11 second TII can do to them. Another blast, participating in an open track day and being all over the *** of M-5's C-5's and Porsche's who have to succumb and move over to let me by, or creaming Vipers Cobra Kit cars The mighty EVo and most anything else on 4 wheels in Autocrosses.
You seem to have no idea how much of a rush it is.


Sorry you lost your religion. I had firsthand knowledge of the poor dyno #'s and shared with fellow rotorheads on Nopistons. RX-8 Forum members jumped in and like rabbit fans started flaming me for the pure blasphamy of my accusations. Kind of like you are doing. You seemed to miss a later thread from me urging all you RX-8 owners (that were brave enough to order them sight unseen) to FORCE Mazda to fix your cars. You can make a difference for the rest of the potential owners.

Why didn't Mazda offer to fix them?? why the payoff??

I am by no means an idle watcher. I throw a big Rotary BBQ every spring I am a charter member of the Mazda Rotary Club of Florida. What have you done for the rotary community?? I am one of the many that signed pettition after pettition to bring back the rotary.

No you have one. Your welcome.

I got to say you sure are dramatic. You must be from the RX7Club.

simrjor

We had orignally been quoted higher figures when preordering started in March.

At the beginning of July they stated the 231PS output was due to EURO IV emissions.