How to turn of Traction Control COMPLETELY
03-19-2008, 03:51 PM
#76
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I think Mazda has given plenty of complete information about this. However people are refusing not to believe it - dismissing it as clues to a secret system.
The owners manual tells you that the DSC/TC systems are disabled when you press the DSC Off button.
The owners and service manual tells you that if you hold down the DSC the computer will perceive this as a short and throw an error condition.
The service manual tells us that the TC is a subsystem of DSC, and it is controlled by the DSC off switch. It also tells us that if the DSC light (squiggly lines) stays illuminated, you have a problem - usually caused by a short or someone holding down the DSC Off switch. In all of the schematics, there is not even a hint of a two stage systems. In fact, it shows the opposite.
Mazda has all of that in printed text. There is not one bit of text ANYWHERE that disputes any of this on any level.
The owners manual tells you that the DSC/TC systems are disabled when you press the DSC Off button.
The owners and service manual tells you that if you hold down the DSC the computer will perceive this as a short and throw an error condition.
The service manual tells us that the TC is a subsystem of DSC, and it is controlled by the DSC off switch. It also tells us that if the DSC light (squiggly lines) stays illuminated, you have a problem - usually caused by a short or someone holding down the DSC Off switch. In all of the schematics, there is not even a hint of a two stage systems. In fact, it shows the opposite.
Mazda has all of that in printed text. There is not one bit of text ANYWHERE that disputes any of this on any level.
What controls how the braking is applied and what variables does it use to decide when and where to do this and how much? There has to be some sort of "brains" to the system beyond the on/off switch.
A switch is a switch, it's either on or off, however some type of ECU/computer system has to know (using the before mentioned variables: speed/steering angle/slip) to decide when and how much to intervene. Does this make sense?
Last edited by JRichter; 03-19-2008 at 04:07 PM.
03-19-2008, 03:55 PM
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The service manual tells us that the TC is a subsystem of DSC, and it is controlled by the DSC off switch. It also tells us that if the DSC light (squiggly lines) stays illuminated, you have a problem - usually caused by a short or someone holding down the DSC Off switch. In all of the schematics, there is not even a hint of a two stage systems. In fact, it shows the opposite.
03-19-2008, 04:55 PM
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I can find others with the same experience:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...dsc+tcs+button
check post #5
This is a good read: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/myth-dsc-off-switch-94230/
Last edited by JRichter; 03-19-2008 at 05:07 PM.
03-19-2008, 05:05 PM
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Everyone should post what year they are driving, just to see.
I think thats the best possibility for this difference of opinion.
lastly, if at all possible, two of you with differing opinion should just switch cars, or drive the same car under bad conditions, to figure out if this is merely a difference in driver perception or difference in model year.
I think thats the best possibility for this difference of opinion.
lastly, if at all possible, two of you with differing opinion should just switch cars, or drive the same car under bad conditions, to figure out if this is merely a difference in driver perception or difference in model year.
03-19-2008, 05:48 PM
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Like I said up the page, I want to confirm this as soon as possible (i'm at work) but xsnipersgox at least has said the same thing. You can see the light flash in your field of vision while you are looking out the windshield as it's designed to do like most dash panel lights.
I can find others with the same experience:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...dsc+tcs+button
check post #5
This is a good read: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=94230
I can find others with the same experience:
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...dsc+tcs+button
check post #5
This is a good read: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=94230
03-20-2008, 02:52 AM
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I would once more like to refer to the video link i posted before. Just as a bit of a background i am a computer science / electrical engineer. Im a specialist in embedded systems (small cpus that dont have any direct contact with the end user. an ECU is an embedded system).
The diagram Mobile posted says absolutely nothing. Its an oversimplification so it can be used to give us a vague idea but nothing specific. As Stealth and others have pointed out the press of a button sends a signal to the DSC/TCS system, which I assume is embedded in the ECU and not a seperate processor.
Here is the deal though, the ECU can do whatever it likes with this information. My theory is that one press is you got lots of responsibility. This means the following:
1. You can do donuts (Yes the ECU knows the car is at a standstill and will permit it)
2. You can do high speed drifts (Yes as long as the slip angle is less than 90 degrees it will not interfere) This supports Brettus claim that he can drift with one press. It also supports imput1234s claim that when he spun out the system interfered.
3. When you slam the brakes that the ABS engages and there is slip angle the systems engage fully and help you out as this is considered an emergency. This is demonstrated in the video by the car managing to stay on track with one press of the DSC button but when it is fully off the car slid 25 meters off track. By the driver doing the same thing!!!
It also supports claims in other threads about track drivers only pressing it once but autoX drivers needs to hold in. They gain 1-2 seconds in their lap times by holding it in. This means something is interfering.
If Mobile and other choose to believe this or not is up to them. I have seen in the video the difference in car reaction. When im driving on the track i press the DSC once to have the safety that if i fly totally out of control it will fix it for me. It hasnt happened yet so I cannot say for certain. All I can say is that it would be incredibly dangerous to try to reproduce proof of this on the street. Maybe I can ask the organizers if I am allowed to do a reckless drift the next track day to check it out.
The diagram Mobile posted says absolutely nothing. Its an oversimplification so it can be used to give us a vague idea but nothing specific. As Stealth and others have pointed out the press of a button sends a signal to the DSC/TCS system, which I assume is embedded in the ECU and not a seperate processor.
Here is the deal though, the ECU can do whatever it likes with this information. My theory is that one press is you got lots of responsibility. This means the following:
1. You can do donuts (Yes the ECU knows the car is at a standstill and will permit it)
2. You can do high speed drifts (Yes as long as the slip angle is less than 90 degrees it will not interfere) This supports Brettus claim that he can drift with one press. It also supports imput1234s claim that when he spun out the system interfered.
3. When you slam the brakes that the ABS engages and there is slip angle the systems engage fully and help you out as this is considered an emergency. This is demonstrated in the video by the car managing to stay on track with one press of the DSC button but when it is fully off the car slid 25 meters off track. By the driver doing the same thing!!!
It also supports claims in other threads about track drivers only pressing it once but autoX drivers needs to hold in. They gain 1-2 seconds in their lap times by holding it in. This means something is interfering.
If Mobile and other choose to believe this or not is up to them. I have seen in the video the difference in car reaction. When im driving on the track i press the DSC once to have the safety that if i fly totally out of control it will fix it for me. It hasnt happened yet so I cannot say for certain. All I can say is that it would be incredibly dangerous to try to reproduce proof of this on the street. Maybe I can ask the organizers if I am allowed to do a reckless drift the next track day to check it out.
03-20-2008, 09:37 AM
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I would once more like to refer to the video link i posted before. Just as a bit of a background i am a computer science / electrical engineer. Im a specialist in embedded systems (small cpus that dont have any direct contact with the end user. an ECU is an embedded system).
The diagram Mobile posted says absolutely nothing. Its an oversimplification so it can be used to give us a vague idea but nothing specific. As Stealth and others have pointed out the press of a button sends a signal to the DSC/TCS system, which I assume is embedded in the ECU and not a seperate processor.
Here is the deal though, the ECU can do whatever it likes with this information. My theory is that one press is you got lots of responsibility. This means the following:
1. You can do donuts (Yes the ECU knows the car is at a standstill and will permit it)
2. You can do high speed drifts (Yes as long as the slip angle is less than 90 degrees it will not interfere) This supports Brettus claim that he can drift with one press. It also supports imput1234s claim that when he spun out the system interfered.
3. When you slam the brakes that the ABS engages and there is slip angle the systems engage fully and help you out as this is considered an emergency. This is demonstrated in the video by the car managing to stay on track with one press of the DSC button but when it is fully off the car slid 25 meters off track. By the driver doing the same thing!!!
It also supports claims in other threads about track drivers only pressing it once but autoX drivers needs to hold in. They gain 1-2 seconds in their lap times by holding it in. This means something is interfering.
If Mobile and other choose to believe this or not is up to them. I have seen in the video the difference in car reaction. When im driving on the track i press the DSC once to have the safety that if i fly totally out of control it will fix it for me. It hasnt happened yet so I cannot say for certain. All I can say is that it would be incredibly dangerous to try to reproduce proof of this on the street. Maybe I can ask the organizers if I am allowed to do a reckless drift the next track day to check it out.
The diagram Mobile posted says absolutely nothing. Its an oversimplification so it can be used to give us a vague idea but nothing specific. As Stealth and others have pointed out the press of a button sends a signal to the DSC/TCS system, which I assume is embedded in the ECU and not a seperate processor.
Here is the deal though, the ECU can do whatever it likes with this information. My theory is that one press is you got lots of responsibility. This means the following:
1. You can do donuts (Yes the ECU knows the car is at a standstill and will permit it)
2. You can do high speed drifts (Yes as long as the slip angle is less than 90 degrees it will not interfere) This supports Brettus claim that he can drift with one press. It also supports imput1234s claim that when he spun out the system interfered.
3. When you slam the brakes that the ABS engages and there is slip angle the systems engage fully and help you out as this is considered an emergency. This is demonstrated in the video by the car managing to stay on track with one press of the DSC button but when it is fully off the car slid 25 meters off track. By the driver doing the same thing!!!
It also supports claims in other threads about track drivers only pressing it once but autoX drivers needs to hold in. They gain 1-2 seconds in their lap times by holding it in. This means something is interfering.
If Mobile and other choose to believe this or not is up to them. I have seen in the video the difference in car reaction. When im driving on the track i press the DSC once to have the safety that if i fly totally out of control it will fix it for me. It hasnt happened yet so I cannot say for certain. All I can say is that it would be incredibly dangerous to try to reproduce proof of this on the street. Maybe I can ask the organizers if I am allowed to do a reckless drift the next track day to check it out.
03-20-2008, 09:39 AM
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The overall DSC/TCS/LSD subject has been beat to death in this forum but after searching and reading all the threads no one or no clear answer has emerged.
03-20-2008, 04:02 PM
#87
Quotes from the other thread
I might have to retract my chainsaw
That thread has changed my mind on this subject but I will say that some of the statements about what the differences are have been totally misleading . People who claim that they cant go out of control and do burnouts donuts and drifting with only the quick push have obviously not tried it .
I think I'll have to do some more experimenting .
There's this sport called Autocross that is a large lot or airstip set up with pylons. (Seach video.google for "autox video" any incar video will do as out of car doesn't give that much an idea) Each run through the course lasts about 60 seconds. In that time, there are no straights. It is a sport of constant transitions and controlling vehicle dynamics on the edge. Too little, and you're slow, too much, and you're looking the way you came. You're pretty much driving 9/10 - 10/10 for a constant 60 seconds.
With the one press DSC OFF, by the 3rd corner, I will feel the car trying to reel my driving in as I switch from left to right to left under power. Usually, this is when I am just about to exceed the slip angle of the tires... something I *need* to do, minimally in certain situations, to get a fast time. Especially with the car loaded in a sharp left turn, on the gas, with the inside left rear wheel unloaded. This is amplified on wet event days.
With the full 7 seconds, I will not have that. If I want to exceed the slip angle of my tires, it'll let me. It will not reel me in. I can put my car at any angle I want with as much throttle as I want. There's no intrusion. Granted, the intrusion is not as severe as with the DSC on, but it's still there, I and other can and have noticed it. It's mostly in the autox environment going 10/10ths on the limits of adhesion/traction/turning/gassing when you'll get the "brake LSD" (as what the manual calls it) activation.
On the road, you're most likely not going to feel it doing 7/10ths. Even on the track, you probably won't feel it as the inputs aren't as severe as auto-x. You have plenty of time to setup for the next corner, and many times, you're braking before you even get there (not so with auto-x).
So take it FWIW. It exists, the manual say so. They call it "brake LSD". The whole system can be deactivead by pressing, and holding, the DSC button for 7+ seconds until the Car with squiggly lines indicator comes on.
With the one press DSC OFF, by the 3rd corner, I will feel the car trying to reel my driving in as I switch from left to right to left under power. Usually, this is when I am just about to exceed the slip angle of the tires... something I *need* to do, minimally in certain situations, to get a fast time. Especially with the car loaded in a sharp left turn, on the gas, with the inside left rear wheel unloaded. This is amplified on wet event days.
With the full 7 seconds, I will not have that. If I want to exceed the slip angle of my tires, it'll let me. It will not reel me in. I can put my car at any angle I want with as much throttle as I want. There's no intrusion. Granted, the intrusion is not as severe as with the DSC on, but it's still there, I and other can and have noticed it. It's mostly in the autox environment going 10/10ths on the limits of adhesion/traction/turning/gassing when you'll get the "brake LSD" (as what the manual calls it) activation.
On the road, you're most likely not going to feel it doing 7/10ths. Even on the track, you probably won't feel it as the inputs aren't as severe as auto-x. You have plenty of time to setup for the next corner, and many times, you're braking before you even get there (not so with auto-x).
So take it FWIW. It exists, the manual say so. They call it "brake LSD". The whole system can be deactivead by pressing, and holding, the DSC button for 7+ seconds until the Car with squiggly lines indicator comes on.
Forget the manual for a sec. It was written by lawyers from second-hand info passed through Japanese to Engrish on its way to the USA and elsewhere.
A few quick notes about the various systems:
The LSD (limited slip differential) has no electronic component. It does what it does in a vacuum. Its job is to simply distribute torque to the rear wheels. It does nothing else and it does so with impunity.
The ABS (anti-lock braking system) is a 4-wheel anti-lock scheme. It detects a sudden non-rotating state of any wheel under braking and automatically modulates that wheel to get it rolling again.
The TCS (traction control system) is a throttle modulating scheme that pulls power from the rear wheels whenever it detects a differential between the rotating speed of the fronts and the backs.
The DSC (dynamic stability control) is an over-arching control scheme that utilizes the TCS and ABS sensors to modulate the throttle and the brakes to dampen yaw.
The ABS cannot be defeated without a fault. Unplugging its harness will kill it and the DSC and throw a CEL.
Pressing the DSC button for a second will lower the threshold of the TCS system and remove the DSC.
Pressing the TCS/DSC button for 3 or 4 seconds faults the DSC system and turns both completely off and throws a fault light.
Neither of those actions affect the ABS or the LSD.
Regardless of what the manual states, this is what happens. I'm sure you are quite earnest in your beliefs Puch96, but they are based on the literature and this forum is chock full of refutations of the literature - some from driving experience and others from people living with their scopemeters and diagonal cutters.
A few quick notes about the various systems:
The LSD (limited slip differential) has no electronic component. It does what it does in a vacuum. Its job is to simply distribute torque to the rear wheels. It does nothing else and it does so with impunity.
The ABS (anti-lock braking system) is a 4-wheel anti-lock scheme. It detects a sudden non-rotating state of any wheel under braking and automatically modulates that wheel to get it rolling again.
The TCS (traction control system) is a throttle modulating scheme that pulls power from the rear wheels whenever it detects a differential between the rotating speed of the fronts and the backs.
The DSC (dynamic stability control) is an over-arching control scheme that utilizes the TCS and ABS sensors to modulate the throttle and the brakes to dampen yaw.
The ABS cannot be defeated without a fault. Unplugging its harness will kill it and the DSC and throw a CEL.
Pressing the DSC button for a second will lower the threshold of the TCS system and remove the DSC.
Pressing the TCS/DSC button for 3 or 4 seconds faults the DSC system and turns both completely off and throws a fault light.
Neither of those actions affect the ABS or the LSD.
Regardless of what the manual states, this is what happens. I'm sure you are quite earnest in your beliefs Puch96, but they are based on the literature and this forum is chock full of refutations of the literature - some from driving experience and others from people living with their scopemeters and diagonal cutters.
I might have to retract my chainsaw
That thread has changed my mind on this subject but I will say that some of the statements about what the differences are have been totally misleading . People who claim that they cant go out of control and do burnouts donuts and drifting with only the quick push have obviously not tried it . I think I'll have to do some more experimenting .
Last edited by Brettus; 03-20-2008 at 04:15 PM.
03-20-2008, 04:35 PM
#88
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Forget the manual for a sec. It was written by lawyers from second-hand info passed through Japanese to Engrish on its way to the USA and elsewhere.
A few quick notes about the various systems:
The LSD (limited slip differential) has no electronic component. It does what it does in a vacuum. Its job is to simply distribute torque to the rear wheels. It does nothing else and it does so with impunity.
The ABS (anti-lock braking system) is a 4-wheel anti-lock scheme. It detects a sudden non-rotating state of any wheel under braking and automatically modulates that wheel to get it rolling again.
The TCS (traction control system) is a throttle modulating scheme that pulls power from the rear wheels whenever it detects a differential between the rotating speed of the fronts and the backs.
The DSC (dynamic stability control) is an over-arching control scheme that utilizes the TCS and ABS sensors to modulate the throttle and the brakes to dampen yaw.
The ABS cannot be defeated without a fault. Unplugging its harness will kill it and the DSC and throw a CEL.
Pressing the DSC button for a second will lower the threshold of the TCS system and remove the DSC.
Pressing the TCS/DSC button for 3 or 4 seconds faults the DSC system and turns both completely off and throws a fault light.
Neither of those actions affect the ABS or the LSD.
Regardless of what the manual states, this is what happens. I'm sure you are quite earnest in your beliefs Puch96, but they are based on the literature and this forum is chock full of refutations of the literature - some from driving experience and others from people living with their scopemeters and diagonal cutters.
A few quick notes about the various systems:
The LSD (limited slip differential) has no electronic component. It does what it does in a vacuum. Its job is to simply distribute torque to the rear wheels. It does nothing else and it does so with impunity.
The ABS (anti-lock braking system) is a 4-wheel anti-lock scheme. It detects a sudden non-rotating state of any wheel under braking and automatically modulates that wheel to get it rolling again.
The TCS (traction control system) is a throttle modulating scheme that pulls power from the rear wheels whenever it detects a differential between the rotating speed of the fronts and the backs.
The DSC (dynamic stability control) is an over-arching control scheme that utilizes the TCS and ABS sensors to modulate the throttle and the brakes to dampen yaw.
The ABS cannot be defeated without a fault. Unplugging its harness will kill it and the DSC and throw a CEL.
Pressing the DSC button for a second will lower the threshold of the TCS system and remove the DSC.
Pressing the TCS/DSC button for 3 or 4 seconds faults the DSC system and turns both completely off and throws a fault light.
Neither of those actions affect the ABS or the LSD.
Regardless of what the manual states, this is what happens. I'm sure you are quite earnest in your beliefs Puch96, but they are based on the literature and this forum is chock full of refutations of the literature - some from driving experience and others from people living with their scopemeters and diagonal cutters.
03-20-2008, 07:12 PM
#91
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4 pages of heated debate on something that's been resolved a while back. Hahaha.
The gullible dude who was presenting all the "evidence" was heating the forge for a big (L) branding.
The gullible dude who was presenting all the "evidence" was heating the forge for a big (L) branding.
03-20-2008, 07:39 PM
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...Have not had time to check and post in this thread, lots to see here!
dynamho - this topic had not been fully resolved, there is/was still a lot of misinformation floating around. Still some unanswered questions. I was digging up anything I could to sort through it all.
What I think we have learned is that for the street or sometimes even the track, pressing the DSC Off button will basically remove the TC and DSC systems. There appears to be another system of some sort that can kick in during certain situations - such as AUTOX/spins/certain driving methods - however it has yet to be determined whether this is the DSC/TC in the form of a different threshold or this "Brake LSD" function that was referred to in the other thread.
A lot of members claimed that TC was kicking in on launches, and stopping them from doing donuts in the "DSC thread" in the competition section that I was also posting in - I think we have at least put that to rest and shown this not be the case. It would appear the secondary system is only activated during extreme driving circumstances.
Regardless, I think this has been a worth while conversation as it has brought focus to a lot of incorrect blanket statements that have been passed around here. The great thread JRichter dug up answered some questions, but the Brake LSD system questions have yet to been resolved.
I am now totally comfortable with trusting JRichter and imput1234 experiences of interference even though they were completely contrary to my own and contrary to what I learned through reading the owners and service manuals. The explanation in the other thread explains why some see no difference between pressing and holding. It comes down to driving style/conditions and event types. At the very least there is a lot of incomplete or misinformation on this topic that gets continuously passed around - so I think it to be a worth while topic for discussion.
dynamho - this topic had not been fully resolved, there is/was still a lot of misinformation floating around. Still some unanswered questions. I was digging up anything I could to sort through it all.
What I think we have learned is that for the street or sometimes even the track, pressing the DSC Off button will basically remove the TC and DSC systems. There appears to be another system of some sort that can kick in during certain situations - such as AUTOX/spins/certain driving methods - however it has yet to be determined whether this is the DSC/TC in the form of a different threshold or this "Brake LSD" function that was referred to in the other thread.
A lot of members claimed that TC was kicking in on launches, and stopping them from doing donuts in the "DSC thread" in the competition section that I was also posting in - I think we have at least put that to rest and shown this not be the case. It would appear the secondary system is only activated during extreme driving circumstances.
Regardless, I think this has been a worth while conversation as it has brought focus to a lot of incorrect blanket statements that have been passed around here. The great thread JRichter dug up answered some questions, but the Brake LSD system questions have yet to been resolved.
I am now totally comfortable with trusting JRichter and imput1234 experiences of interference even though they were completely contrary to my own and contrary to what I learned through reading the owners and service manuals. The explanation in the other thread explains why some see no difference between pressing and holding. It comes down to driving style/conditions and event types. At the very least there is a lot of incomplete or misinformation on this topic that gets continuously passed around - so I think it to be a worth while topic for discussion.
Last edited by Mobile; 03-20-2008 at 07:59 PM.
03-21-2008, 10:13 AM
#93
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Not a car expert, but LSD can be electronic. I work for Toyota and the LSD they use is electronic. It will apply the ABS to the wheel that is spinning to transfer power to the wheel that is not. I guess the "Brake LSD system" as refereed to by Mazda is similar. Duno. Just a guess. Not an expert. Please don't flame me.
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