JRichter

I'm not sure how advanced Mazda's design is but I know different systems have different sensors for factoring vehicle speed, stability, steering angle, etc. for deciding when the YAW control and or fuel cut should intervene.

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

Guys, like I've said a million times.
This is a pointless argument.

And Mobile I have stated my experience with DSC, and I don't need to "try that"( I don't know if you read my post, I clearly stated when DSC has kicked in for me with the button pushed) I know that with the button pushed you can do donuts and figure 8's, as I've done them in several occasions.
Maybe there are differences in the models.

Mobile

Tell you what, ignore everything I have said and go do this:

You can test this by pressing the DSC Off button and getting your *** to hang out coming out of a corner. Go try it. You can do that because your DSC is off.

Or you can see if DSC is working by getting up so speed in a parking lot and try to execute a donut or spin at speed - you will be able to with just the DSC Off pressed.

Check TC is off by just trying to spin your tires. Again, something you can do with just a press of the DSC Off button. This is because the DSC Off button disabled both DSC and TC with just a touch. The TC is a component of the DSC - they work as one system - no multiple stages.

Go try this stuff. It's very easy to see when DSC and TC are off.

JRichter

Until I see a complete, detailed, written breakdown of exactly how Mazda's system works or how advanced it is then I will still judge how it performs based on my own experience.

JRichter

Exactly. Like I stated before with one push of the button, the DSC still intervenes...

I've got to get back to work before I get fired but will see if I can check this later today someplace safe.

Maybe year/model changes?

Mobile

Would you at least humor me and try out the simple steps above to see if what I say is correct? It relies on your own feel, never mind what the literature states. These systems are as easy to feel as ABS when they kick on.

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

+1.

And Mobile, you keep telling us to try it. But as I've stated over 5 times, I have tried it and it has interfered I have even provided examples.

JRichter

I sure will to make sure I'm correct, I just can't do it now as I'm at my desk at work. I will see if I can find time at lunch...

And like I said before I can clearly tell when the abs is kicking in verses the fuel cut cause I don't like it when I'm mid corner and it halts me almost to a stop.

Mobile

Because if you try the things I am asking you to, and you can repeat my results it proves that there is no TC or DSC system enabled once you press the DSC Off button. It also proves that those who state you need to hold down the DSC button to disable TC or DSC are wrong.

You say you car press the DSC Off and still do donuts and figure 8's - if that's true, then DSC and TCS are no longer functioning - how can you dispute that?

Mobile

Yes I agree, its crystal clear when it kicks in and very annoying; I always drive with my DSC off. That's why I want you to go test this stuff one more time. It's hard to imagine that we are doing the exact same thing and getting different results!

Mobile

You guys wanted detail, here you go.

I have circled the DSC Off switch in red, and you can see that it cuts the entire DSC HU/CM curcuit right at the negative power terminal, enabling it non operational. There is no secondary system here.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Ain't a fact......

It is a momentary switch, grounds out a contact of the ECU. Cuts power to nothing, interrupts nothing, affects nothing.

All it does is send a signal when pushed.


S

Mobile

The switch it of course momentary, that's why it always resets when you turn the car back on, it's also why you can cause a short and a error code when you hold it. It is still responsible for stopping the DSC circuit from running.

I'm no engineer - but that circuit doesn't suggest a multiple stage system. The switch is sitting right on the complete pathway for the system, exactly where it needs to sit to shut the entire thing off. If there were multiple stages, you would expect to see something inside the circuit.

Also there are no diagrams in the service manual with anything listing a separate TC circuit. This is because TC is controlled within the DSC / HU/CM control unit, which is disabled when you press the DSC Off button. These are not separately controlled systems folks. One button turns them both off.

Can anyone tell me how to thumbnail that pic? ^^

JRichter

Elaborate...

I still don't understand. What is the result of the signal? How does this switch affect TCS and DSC when pushed.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

My point is that it doesn't cut the power or the ground - it's simply a signal wire.

The circuit is still powered up and (possibly) active. All the signal wires ground out, the oil and coolant level sensors, neutral and brake switches, they are all a simple ground.

This type of control is becoming much more widely used - it is never as simple as "radiator sensor turns on cooling fan" - now the sensor sends it's input to the ECU, the ECU decides, based on it's programming, one fan slow, two fans slow, both fans high, whatever. Just like your throttle, "throttle pedal pulls cable - butterfly whaps open" is a thing of ancient history, now it's "☺driver pedal sensor indicates driver wants power☺left rear wheel spins☺butterfly whaps almost shut☺sorry"

S

JRichter

Gotcha...

But my question still remains? How does this switch affect TCS and DSC when pushed.

Is any kind of interference by the DSC/TCS still possible when the button is simply pressed once?

Mobile

My point is that no matter how it works, it is still the DSC Off switch and it is responsible for telling the computer to stop running DSC. It is located right at the choke point for the entire circuit. You can't deny that it's compelling.

Mobile

The switch sends a signal to the computer to shut off / ignore the DSC control module. The circuit shows a momentary switch that is activated when pressed once. When held open, it perceives this as a short and sends the error code.

JRichter

^ This makes 100% absolute complete sense to me, but from my own experience and like imput1234 said, I know I have had the yaw control kick in during high speed sliding after the button was pressed and the dash read "DSC/OFF".

Give me a chance to test this week to confirm, Mobile (no more snow/ice here so I will have to find a place where I can get up to speed).

xsnipersgox

the problem with mobile's argument, not that i agree with anyone (i think just do the hold down trick.. it works, it's proven to work, why waste ages arguing over 7 seconds of your life? plus its cool to have 2 lights over 1) is that we don't know what the signal tells the computer.

finally, mobile may be right, however, with the DSC simply pushed once, the "slip" light will come on when you slip, which may distract driver and act like a psychological "response" to correct that slip? who knows.. i say just do the hold down method and forget about the arguement

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

Did you read that long post I made like a page ago. With the DSC button pushed in the car fixed itself. go back and read it

JRichter

exactly which leads me to believe something is still working....?

Everything Mobile is saying makes complete sense as far as how it should work and should have been designed, but I think there is more to it. Does the DSC's brains override the fact that you pushed the button once when it senses the car is really in trouble? Then when you hold down the error occurs so nothing works giving you no protection?

JRichter

I'm not in it to argue with anybody - I just want to know how this **** completely works without having to actually test unsafely and to do this I would think you would need to be at track speeds. Mazda sure doesn't supply complete info on how this system works to the general public that I've found.

Mobile

I am not just using the diagram as a reference, Mazda's own text confirms what I'm seeing in the circuit schematic. You can read about it in the owners manual and the service manual and there is not one line of text which supports the hold down method as doing anything for the car except throwing an error code/condition.

Combine all of this supporting evidence with the fact that through all of my own tests and driving, I can not get the DSC or TC to activate once I press that button. Others like Brettus are getting the same results. I am trying to disprove what is in my opinion a lot of incorrect information that's been floating around on here for a long time. Those that are happy to think its doing something for them and don't care if it actually does can continue to hold down that button. I think it can be a testament to the power of the placebo effect.

Mobile

I think Mazda has given plenty of complete information about this. However people are refusing not to believe it - dismissing it as clues to a secret system.

The owners manual tells you that the DSC/TC systems are disabled when you press the DSC Off button.

The owners and service manual tells you that if you hold down the DSC the computer will perceive this as a short and throw an error condition.

The service manual tells us that the TC is a subsystem of DSC, and it is controlled by the DSC off switch. It also tells us that if the DSC light (squiggly lines) stays illuminated, you have a problem - usually caused by a short or someone holding down the DSC Off switch. In all of the schematics, there is not even a hint of a two stage systems. In fact, it shows the opposite.

Mazda has all of that in printed text. There is not one bit of text ANYWHERE that disputes any of this on any level. Also what possible motivation could Mazda have for building a complex multi-layered DSC/TC system with multiple off techniques and trigger points with a fake off button to boot - then hide all of it from the owners and service manuals. It's not like this system is hardwired directly into the heart of the vehicle, you can buy a base model that comes without it.