Renesis v2.0
12-15-2010, 06:49 PM
#754
You know, the ticking sound is coming from the lower intake manifold. Makes me wonder about those APV sleeve valves. It could be one or both clanking around. This is going to drive me crazy. I have a new water pump sitting here from Mazmart, but now I wonder if the pump is fine. If I stethoscope the LIM, I can hear it plain as day, and it is louder than if I scope the water pump or alternator.My hearing sucks. I will once again, for the fourth time, drop the drive belt and listen to the APV sleeves....
Also, the sound is WAY less now than in that video. It is hard to hear with the naked ear.
Last edited by Nemesis8; 12-15-2010 at 06:51 PM.
12-15-2010, 11:07 PM
#757
Heartbreak just set in - now with the drive belt removed, and after a few minutes of idling, I could hear the ticking. It is coming from the lower intake manifold.
Bearings, Seals, or APV Sleeve? My guess is the APV. They were modified in the RB Street Port process.
The blasted LIM is coming back to haunt me now. I have only one working out of the three I own. I have parts to build a second new one, and I am starting tomorrow.
I have to use the car, so the apv will just roast itself. This leads me back to my APV stuck open code, and charging system voltage low code...
Bearings, Seals, or APV Sleeve? My guess is the APV. They were modified in the RB Street Port process.
The blasted LIM is coming back to haunt me now. I have only one working out of the three I own. I have parts to build a second new one, and I am starting tomorrow.
I have to use the car, so the apv will just roast itself. This leads me back to my APV stuck open code, and charging system voltage low code...
12-16-2010, 10:39 AM
#761
Well, this is getting weird. I'm really not sure where the noise is coming from now. My ears do not work well. I need to take it to somebody that can pinpoint this better than me. This morning, it sounded like the bell housing area again....
I will go to a rotary shop and the dealer. Needs to go up on a lift and have the tranny dropped to eliminate anything in the clutch/ flywheel setup first.
I will go to a rotary shop and the dealer. Needs to go up on a lift and have the tranny dropped to eliminate anything in the clutch/ flywheel setup first.
12-16-2010, 11:58 AM
#763
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Well you are safe eliminating anything mechanically driven (flywheel, alt, waterpump, bearings, ect).
The RPM is way to slow and follows a distinct rhythm.
That being said, based on a poor quality video I spent 20 seconds listening to on 10yr old dell speakers, sounds like nothing else I have ever heard. Does it match RPM's? Can you stethoscope the front cover.... ? Hows your oil pressure....?
The RPM is way to slow and follows a distinct rhythm.
That being said, based on a poor quality video I spent 20 seconds listening to on 10yr old dell speakers, sounds like nothing else I have ever heard. Does it match RPM's? Can you stethoscope the front cover.... ? Hows your oil pressure....?
Last edited by fd3sengineering; 12-16-2010 at 12:01 PM.
12-16-2010, 06:25 PM
#764
OK - thanks for looking in Marc
Want to hear something really ODD?? There was NO sound today - nothing - nada - ziltch. WTF? Am I going crazy? I will shoot better quality video next time I hear it. That video was suck *** quality for sure.
Answers:
1) Edit: Yes slightly, mainly gets louder.
2) I stetho'd the front cover, and it was silent, edit: at least with my hearing
3) Oil pressure is great. In fact, I have the Mazmart tweak, to give me pressure.
If you go to my YouTube page, scroll down to the Cold Startup video you can view my pressure.
Want to hear something really ODD?? There was NO sound today - nothing - nada - ziltch. WTF? Am I going crazy? I will shoot better quality video next time I hear it. That video was suck *** quality for sure.
Answers:
1) Edit: Yes slightly, mainly gets louder.
2) I stetho'd the front cover, and it was silent, edit: at least with my hearing
3) Oil pressure is great. In fact, I have the Mazmart tweak, to give me pressure.
If you go to my YouTube page, scroll down to the Cold Startup video you can view my pressure.
Last edited by Nemesis8; 12-17-2010 at 06:12 PM.
12-17-2010, 06:18 PM
#767
Loose pressure plate bolt? What flywheel was it? Maybe a flywheel bolt to counterweight is loose?...finger on the pressure plate bent and hitting the throwout bearing as it rotates? stops when the clutch puts pressure fingers....
Why does it come and go though? is it still intermittent??
Why does it come and go though? is it still intermittent??
12-18-2010, 06:32 AM
#773
Registered
Take your car to a race shop w/ a dyno and you'll have your issue fixed and dyno'd by the end of the day. Or you can bring it to our shop and it will be done by lunch. Apologies in advance to all involved in this project but this is the longest engine swap project I've ever encountered ever. We frequently pull an engine, undress the entire motor, redress a different motor and install it (including removal and replacement of the trans, ppf, exhaust, radiator, front nose, etc. in a day. We're actually doing this today ironically. I offer this so other viewers of this thread have an alternate concept of how quickly this can happen. This is done so people should not be scared that a project has to take a long amount of time with your car out of service---because it doesn't have to if you plan accordingly.
Again, this post is in no way meant to judge but rather to give others an alternative expectation of how quickly this could happen and what you need to do to get the most power out of RECORDING what your engine does on the dyno.
Since we are at a break for the weekend on this project, here is some relevant info that may provide value to this thread that we are all anxiously awaiting.
Each motor we install goes to the dyno after it first built to validate power and confirm there are no issues or hints of issues. I stopped counting but I think we are near 30 or so engines for our race cars. From time to time an issue may arise on the dyno or a new engine first time startup (like the one in currently in this thread which makes me think about something at the back of the motor or a backward clocked APV valve---hard to say) and this is usually the cause of a new person on our team working the install for the first time. Almost never is it a Mazda part that was made incorrectly. Almost always it is humar error/learning curve so don't go pointing fingers at vendors for faulty parts upon first sign on an issue. Examine the experience of those doing the work as familiarity is usually the issue. For the DIY crowd, this can be seating the fuel injectors in their respective locations (a great time to get both F.I. O-rings and the rubber donuts that they seat into) or very light seepage of oil around an oil fittings---simple quick fixes and normal for starts of new motors. Exhaust manifold gasket leaks at the block is another rascal that you can chase your tail on for a bit. Air bubbles in the water cooling system/water overflow can also surprise a first timer. Buy a Mazda repair manual and read it. Often you need only to uninstall and reinstall the faulty item and usually that does the trick.
New motors.
Mazda has a recommended break-in procedure for motors with new bearings and it involves slowly raising the rpm and load over time (which is why you often hear the concept of lower rpms for the first XXX miles then slightly higher rpms for the next XXX miles). This is for bearings. Our race motors can and do reuse the same bearings so after 30 minutes or so of idle to get heat in the motors and confirm no fluid or exhaust leaks, oil p is fine, temps up to operating parameters, we go to full pulls on the dyno. For those of you new to this may I offer some well versed information. Higher oil pressure can easily be accomplished with an RX7 Oil P regulator (google it to learn something) and over 100psi at higher rpms under load is an easy feat. One could argue that new side and apex seals need broken it however we rarely see hp delta's between new and broken in---same for compression values after the car has ran/idled for an hour or so. Compression testing prior to start up is not a great indicator of peak power if you ask me. It's a great barometer of finding out if anything is wrong but that's about it.
Validating power at a chassis dyno should be done with consistancy in mind. A drivetrain (engine, trans and diff) that is cold or barely warmed up with make noticeably less power than one that is. This means a dyno day where you arrive 3 hours early and your car sits in the parking lot takes a helluva lot longer to get back not only to highway or street operating temps but maximum power temps. For our motors that consistantly make 210-213 rwhp in 4th gear (and about 2-4 higher in 5th gear), this means heak soaking the trans and diff. One of the best ways to do this is to strap your car down, get in it and drive. You pay for your dyno time and you use it as you see fit. We have a strong relationship with our dyno owner and we basically strap down, setup the computer and do our own dyno pulls. Heck, I even have keys to his shop and know the alarm code. For credibility (or not if you wish), I've done HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of dyno pulls with the RX-8 and if you bet me a case of beer and a good steak on this you'd lose. Where I'm going with this is to get your car on the dyno, drive it, drive it, drive it for higher temps and therefore higher hp numbers. A cold motor right out of the gate can easily make 10% fewer hp than one that is nice and hot. Think about that---this is 20 hp on a 200 hp motor. Luckily the exhaust will put some heat in the trans and diff. Running your car in 4th gear as an example at 7,000 rpm for 5 minutes can get you there quickly. We pull above 135 diff oil temp and this is what I've found to be the critical heat issue in our car to make the most power. 220F engine oil and a hot diff make the most power available in your car.
Safety first. Have a friend with a flashlight to observe the engine bay and under the car for new engines as often this is when things can appear. Check the straps frequently. Schedule an appointment for an hour of dyno time in lieu of the cheapee 3 pulls for XX$ wear its IMPOSSIBLE to get to your cars peak numbers. Note the closest fire extinguisher and make sure it's easily in reach. Use the same fuel everytime. Pull in the same gear everytime (most people use 5th gear due to it's 1:1 ratio). We use 4th. Oil that is 220F will make a few more ponies than oil that is 200. Oil that is 220F will make even more ponies than oil that is 185F. The stock ECU will share intake air temp and air intake temps below 90F will make 2 or 3 more hp on a stock n.a. motor than those over 110F. Remember, cooler air is more dense and makes more power which many of you probably know.
A note on dynos. Use the same dyno everytime. There can be a large delta between dynos. We have found the dynojets to be very consistant. Validating claims of higher hp numbers can be attributed to dynos that read high so if you see a post on this forum that looks 10 rwhp higher than yours do not fret that your car with the same mods and about the same mileage is down on power. If your seeking a big number to impress your buddies, ask around for the local or regional dynos that read higher numbers and go there. If this is your goal then I would suggest contacting local Spec Miata racers THAT RUN UP FRONT and ask them which dyno will do this. They will know. They will know. They will know. It won't be a dynojet as a few racing sanctioning bodies have endorsed the dynojet as a consistant product to compare hp to weight ratios. If you don't understand this google it. I'm not a dyno expert but as a communicative and information gathering racer, this is the consistant word on the street. May I suggest the NASAproracing.com website and looking into the GTS and AI rules for more dyno information about how club racing rules and dynos interact. You'll also want to be aware of the dynos correction factor (google it) as this will influence your numbers.
Lastly, your Air/Fuel values are critical to providing good power results. For example, tuned to .93 Lambda we can turn approx 6 rwhp peak hp more that .89 The EGT's run about 50+F higher but it makes more power. We run at .89 Lambda (google Lambda to convert this number to A/F number so you can learn something new). As far as rpm goes, there is NO need to pull over 9,000 rpm. For that matter there is absolutely no need to run your car over 9,000 rpm. The carbon deposit b.s doesn't matter if the car is ran about 9,000 or higher. This is wives tales and folklore. Bigfoot and the moon is made of cheese stuff. There is no power up there. Save the engine from rotor tip wear on the irons and keep it below 8,800 and it will make better compression over longer time/more highway miles.
Hopefully this info is helpful. Call it an intermission to this paced post about this motor. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions but as always, have your ducks in a row. I'll gladly talk to those that are seeking to learn but have no time for the guy who wants to know if the XYZ fujitsu 2000 intake makes more power than the stock one.
Happy rotoring and see you at the track.
Eric
Again, this post is in no way meant to judge but rather to give others an alternative expectation of how quickly this could happen and what you need to do to get the most power out of RECORDING what your engine does on the dyno.
Since we are at a break for the weekend on this project, here is some relevant info that may provide value to this thread that we are all anxiously awaiting.
Each motor we install goes to the dyno after it first built to validate power and confirm there are no issues or hints of issues. I stopped counting but I think we are near 30 or so engines for our race cars. From time to time an issue may arise on the dyno or a new engine first time startup (like the one in currently in this thread which makes me think about something at the back of the motor or a backward clocked APV valve---hard to say) and this is usually the cause of a new person on our team working the install for the first time. Almost never is it a Mazda part that was made incorrectly. Almost always it is humar error/learning curve so don't go pointing fingers at vendors for faulty parts upon first sign on an issue. Examine the experience of those doing the work as familiarity is usually the issue. For the DIY crowd, this can be seating the fuel injectors in their respective locations (a great time to get both F.I. O-rings and the rubber donuts that they seat into) or very light seepage of oil around an oil fittings---simple quick fixes and normal for starts of new motors. Exhaust manifold gasket leaks at the block is another rascal that you can chase your tail on for a bit. Air bubbles in the water cooling system/water overflow can also surprise a first timer. Buy a Mazda repair manual and read it. Often you need only to uninstall and reinstall the faulty item and usually that does the trick.
New motors.
Mazda has a recommended break-in procedure for motors with new bearings and it involves slowly raising the rpm and load over time (which is why you often hear the concept of lower rpms for the first XXX miles then slightly higher rpms for the next XXX miles). This is for bearings. Our race motors can and do reuse the same bearings so after 30 minutes or so of idle to get heat in the motors and confirm no fluid or exhaust leaks, oil p is fine, temps up to operating parameters, we go to full pulls on the dyno. For those of you new to this may I offer some well versed information. Higher oil pressure can easily be accomplished with an RX7 Oil P regulator (google it to learn something) and over 100psi at higher rpms under load is an easy feat. One could argue that new side and apex seals need broken it however we rarely see hp delta's between new and broken in---same for compression values after the car has ran/idled for an hour or so. Compression testing prior to start up is not a great indicator of peak power if you ask me. It's a great barometer of finding out if anything is wrong but that's about it.
Validating power at a chassis dyno should be done with consistancy in mind. A drivetrain (engine, trans and diff) that is cold or barely warmed up with make noticeably less power than one that is. This means a dyno day where you arrive 3 hours early and your car sits in the parking lot takes a helluva lot longer to get back not only to highway or street operating temps but maximum power temps. For our motors that consistantly make 210-213 rwhp in 4th gear (and about 2-4 higher in 5th gear), this means heak soaking the trans and diff. One of the best ways to do this is to strap your car down, get in it and drive. You pay for your dyno time and you use it as you see fit. We have a strong relationship with our dyno owner and we basically strap down, setup the computer and do our own dyno pulls. Heck, I even have keys to his shop and know the alarm code. For credibility (or not if you wish), I've done HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of dyno pulls with the RX-8 and if you bet me a case of beer and a good steak on this you'd lose. Where I'm going with this is to get your car on the dyno, drive it, drive it, drive it for higher temps and therefore higher hp numbers. A cold motor right out of the gate can easily make 10% fewer hp than one that is nice and hot. Think about that---this is 20 hp on a 200 hp motor. Luckily the exhaust will put some heat in the trans and diff. Running your car in 4th gear as an example at 7,000 rpm for 5 minutes can get you there quickly. We pull above 135 diff oil temp and this is what I've found to be the critical heat issue in our car to make the most power. 220F engine oil and a hot diff make the most power available in your car.
Safety first. Have a friend with a flashlight to observe the engine bay and under the car for new engines as often this is when things can appear. Check the straps frequently. Schedule an appointment for an hour of dyno time in lieu of the cheapee 3 pulls for XX$ wear its IMPOSSIBLE to get to your cars peak numbers. Note the closest fire extinguisher and make sure it's easily in reach. Use the same fuel everytime. Pull in the same gear everytime (most people use 5th gear due to it's 1:1 ratio). We use 4th. Oil that is 220F will make a few more ponies than oil that is 200. Oil that is 220F will make even more ponies than oil that is 185F. The stock ECU will share intake air temp and air intake temps below 90F will make 2 or 3 more hp on a stock n.a. motor than those over 110F. Remember, cooler air is more dense and makes more power which many of you probably know.
A note on dynos. Use the same dyno everytime. There can be a large delta between dynos. We have found the dynojets to be very consistant. Validating claims of higher hp numbers can be attributed to dynos that read high so if you see a post on this forum that looks 10 rwhp higher than yours do not fret that your car with the same mods and about the same mileage is down on power. If your seeking a big number to impress your buddies, ask around for the local or regional dynos that read higher numbers and go there. If this is your goal then I would suggest contacting local Spec Miata racers THAT RUN UP FRONT and ask them which dyno will do this. They will know. They will know. They will know. It won't be a dynojet as a few racing sanctioning bodies have endorsed the dynojet as a consistant product to compare hp to weight ratios. If you don't understand this google it. I'm not a dyno expert but as a communicative and information gathering racer, this is the consistant word on the street. May I suggest the NASAproracing.com website and looking into the GTS and AI rules for more dyno information about how club racing rules and dynos interact. You'll also want to be aware of the dynos correction factor (google it) as this will influence your numbers.
Lastly, your Air/Fuel values are critical to providing good power results. For example, tuned to .93 Lambda we can turn approx 6 rwhp peak hp more that .89 The EGT's run about 50+F higher but it makes more power. We run at .89 Lambda (google Lambda to convert this number to A/F number so you can learn something new). As far as rpm goes, there is NO need to pull over 9,000 rpm. For that matter there is absolutely no need to run your car over 9,000 rpm. The carbon deposit b.s doesn't matter if the car is ran about 9,000 or higher. This is wives tales and folklore. Bigfoot and the moon is made of cheese stuff. There is no power up there. Save the engine from rotor tip wear on the irons and keep it below 8,800 and it will make better compression over longer time/more highway miles.
Hopefully this info is helpful. Call it an intermission to this paced post about this motor. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions but as always, have your ducks in a row. I'll gladly talk to those that are seeking to learn but have no time for the guy who wants to know if the XYZ fujitsu 2000 intake makes more power than the stock one.
Happy rotoring and see you at the track.
Eric
Last edited by EricMeyer; 12-18-2010 at 08:00 AM.
12-18-2010, 09:54 AM
#774
Now, getting back to the APV. I have a history of dealing with that part in this build. Long story short, this LIM was in the hands of several builders prior to being bolted on. We did have it clocked wrong on the first startup. Threw codes for stuck APV. Pulled the APV motor, and noticed the white gear was clocked 180 degrees, so we rotated the gear and put it back together, and no codes. I do have a stinking suspicion that the APV could still be a culprit. (I'm not 100% positive the metal washer under the white gear is on the correct side of that white gear.) Working on that part is a bitch with the motor resting on the mounts.
We have been to the dyno with the car, and pulled 190 hp / 136 tq in 4th gear on a Mustang dyno, with a CAT in the exhaust. It was tuned on the dyno at this event. During this whole event at the dyno, no noise was observed. The noise appeared an hour later, on the ride back home from the dyno, so the stress of the dyno, could of magnified the sound, that may have always been there before, and I could just not hear it. Heck, my right ear does not even work anymore at my age.
I will fix the problem, and go back to my original dyno shop, where I have a baseline dyno, and numerous pulls. It is a dynojet, and the time frame will be in Jaunary, so I will poke at you when this happens.
Keep in touch Eric, as I always admire and respect your opinions.
Kevin
Last edited by Nemesis8; 12-18-2010 at 09:57 AM.
12-18-2010, 03:14 PM
#775
Eric...good post...but a bit harsh....
I know it could be likely fixed an a couple of hours with a race team and a hoist...but that isn't really the issue right now for Kevin. He has neither .....
I hope it is something simple...and has an easy fix.......
I know it could be likely fixed an a couple of hours with a race team and a hoist...but that isn't really the issue right now for Kevin. He has neither .....
I hope it is something simple...and has an easy fix.......