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Up top, for a reason: ;)
The best way to search this forum: RX-8 Club has tons of information on hand. And I mean tons. Literally. Add up the weight of everyone's brain, and it will be several tons. Sorry, I know that was bad. Collectively, we know more than any one dealership, tech, repair shop, or spec manual. However, as usual, the information doesn't all sit in one place, it doesn't sit in one head, and we have our idiots, our morons, our assholes, our kids, our jerks, and our literary incompetents. Just like any forum. Fortunately, we have relatively fewer of those than most other car communities out there. But they still exist. We also have a Search button, and a Search function for the board, but it isn't very good. It removes words that it sees as common or too short, but are a critical part of the search. It doesn't allow for search by relevancy, as in real relevancy. You mostly have to do alot of hunting and pecking in the search results to come up with what you might be looking for. Add the two above issues together, and you can easily take all day to find only bad information. But I have good news! You can improve your results and search speed by up to 15% by switching to Google! As in Google.com. Go to Google.com, and in the search box, type: site:rx8club.com Then a space. Then start typing what you are looking for. Like this: RX8Club.com search via Google Your Google search results will be ONLY from this forum, and it will use all the power and intelligence of the best search engine in the world. I still use that function nearly every day between RX8Club.com, Miata.net, Mazdas247.com, Mazda-speed.com, and Stackoverflow.com. So if you have a question that you think is common, give that search method a try, sit back with your beverage of choice and start reading :) Additional Google Search tip: If you are trying to search within a specific thread for information threads that turn out to be very long, add the name of the thread to your search in quotes. This will not restrict the search to just that thread, however the results from that thread will be bias'ed towards the top of the Google search results, and usually be the first results. Like this: Search RX8Club.com's Dumb Question Thread for MAF Sensor posts If Google is too hard, or you are boycotting them or something, check this out instead for a method on how to do more complicated .PHP searches: More complicated PHP searching through link creation - RX8Club.com (It's harder than Google, but handy information if you are of the mindset that might find that appealing) Additional Google Search tip: If you are getting lots of noise in your result set for some reason, or things not related to your problem, add negative qualifiers to your search string. For example searching site:rx8club.com alternator -starter will only give you results that DO contain alternator, and DON'T contain 'starter'. Often, it may be helpful to use this with: -mobile and/or -m.rx8club.com to remove the mobile sites -tagged to remove the links that are only a list of threads with the tags (our tag system is largely useless) Think you have a question that we can't answer? Check out post #8 of this very thread. |
The engine failure story: (Updated October 14th 2013)
RX-8 engines don't have a very good reputation. Unfortuantely, the reputation is well deserved. Fortunately, the general public at large has it ALL WRONG, while at the same time as generally being right. Back in 2004-2005, reports of RX-8 engine failure started to pop up, alarm was generated, and the reputation was born that these engines don't last 30,000 miles. Part of this was that engines were actually failing. The early ECU flashes weren't injecting enough oil, and things were wearing out fast and/or breaking. MSP16 was the final iteration to try to solve this. However, this was only part of the problem. MOST of the problem was simple mis-diagnosis. Owners would feel misfires or power loss, they would change their spark plugs, and the problem wouldn't go away. They would take it to the dealer, who would poke around trying to find a problem, and not finding one, decide that the engine needed replacement. They would order an engine, put it in the customer's car, and send them on their way. It wasn't until years later that dealers started realizing that the IGNITION COILS were failing around 30,000 miles. There are no hard numbers, but many of us believe that a large portion of the original "engine failures" were nothing more than simple ignition coil failure, and were replaced needlessly. Now, add to that problem that Mazda's engine reman plant that would take the 'dead' engines and rebuild them into remanufactured engines was bad. REALLY bad. The quality control was nearly non-existant, skilled workers were no where to be found, and the result was that a rather large number of engines from the plant were far worse than the original factory engines. These reman engines were popping very quickly as well from their own issues. Yes, this means that a customer could have had a great engine, had it erroneously replaced by a dealer not realizing that it just needed new coils, and get a terrible engine put in as a result. This is how many of the original 2004s and 2005s went through multiple engines. Replace something that isn't broken with something that is and yeah, things aren't going to go well. Reman quality is significant better than it was, but certainly not perfect still. Now, if you remove those problems from consideration (the original ECU flash and the reman quality problems), then the engine is very reliable. There are still several major design flaws that tend to hurt the lifespan of the engine, and there are other failure methods where you can destroy a perfectly good engine REALLY fast through in-attention. Most RX-8s DO get a 2nd engine within 100,000 miles, so yes, engines are replaced all the time on the forum, but not for the reasons that the general public likes to believe. How many are replaced? Well, that is still mostly guess work and theory, though there is some indication from outside sources and leaked Mazda information that around 50% of RX-8s have had at least 1 engine replacement in it's lifespan. How about the newer RX-8s though? Shouldn't they be good to go? In 2009 they introduced some subtle but significant engine changes correcting several things, the most critical of which was an increase in oil pressure to RX-7 ranges (they dropped it for the 2004-2008 years for some reason), and re-introducing the center oil injector (they deleted it for the 2004-2008 RX-8s for some reason, all prior rotories had the center injector). This doesn't make them immune to engine failure however, for example a failed thermostat could kill a perfectly good engine, but it helped to reduce the wear-related failures a bit. A compression test should be standard before anyone buys an 8 though, just to be on the safe side. Most dealers charge $120 to $250 to do a compression test. I go more into the compression test itself in a post further down. You might be wondering why it is that we have such a poor outlook. The problem is that there are so many different ways for an engine to fail: - Excessive carbon buildup accelerates seal wear, causing compression loss (particularly a problem in automatic RX-8s) - Excessive carbon buildup unseats the apex seals, causing compression loss (particularly a problem in automatic RX-8s) - Excessive heat buildup warps the housings to one degree or another, preventing the apex seals from sealing, causing compression loss (particularly a problem with older RX-8s that haven't had a cooling system overhaul) - Excessive exhaust temperatures overheat the side seal springs, warping them until the side seal pops out of it's location, clips the exhaust port and shatters, throwing shrapnel through the engine (particularly motors that are turbocharged, supercharged, or see nearly 100% track time) - Fuel pump failure or high lateral G left turns with low fuel causes fuel starvation under load, creating a lean spike that causes detonation and shatters seals (particularly a problem with older RX-8s that haven't had a fuel pump replacement) - Cat failure (even more common than engine failure) causes localized heat and pressure buildup that overstresses the seals and breaks down oil viscosity, leading to various issues (particularly a problem with new owners that don't know to replace their ignition) - Clogged oil injection lines prevent oil from being injected, leading to excessive apex seal wear and side seal overheating, leading to compression loss and/or catastrophic failure (particularly a problem with long oil change intervals) - Subpar reman engine quality, starting with low compression that accelerates any other issue (reman quality has improved over the years, but bad apples are still reported) These are just the common failure methods. There are uncommon ones, and/or freak ones, like a transmission issue snapped one guy's e-shaft somehow (probably a defective e-shaft that was too weak), or issues that are entirely owner caused, like too low octane or not keeping on top of the oil level. Any single preventative measure you can find only addresses at best a couple of these, maybe just one method, and maybe none at all (but people think it does). And since you don't usually know how well the engine was put together in the first place, it's largely a roll of the dice on these engines. Short answer: If possible engine failure makes you that uncomfortable and/or paranoid, then this is not the car for you. You have to accept the issues or ownership will turn into a nightmare. It still could anyway, but your mindset going in is far more important than statistics. The more prepared you are, financially and mentally, the less of a problem any of this will actually be for you. Yes, I paint a bleak picture. However, it really isn't much worse than any other sports car. Every sports car out there has had it's share of problems. Why do we still love the RX-8 anyway? We love it because of it's ability to plaster a grin on your face. More on that later. |
The oil burning story: (Updated February 15th 2014)
One of THE MOST pervasive complaints about the RX-8 is how it burns oil. Everything from neighbors to arm chair racers to magazine editors like to rave and complain about how much oil the RX-8 burns. Well, it's true. The RX-8 does burn oil. However, this isn't actually a problem, and no, we haven't deluded ourselfs into believing that some oil burning is "ok". The RX-8 burns oil intentionally. After all, the engine seals are inside the combustion chamber! The only way to to lubricate the seals inside the combustion chamber is to inject oil (or have oil in the fuel, called premix). This oil then gets burned under combustion, so it has to keep oiling, and oil keeps burning. On average, you should see about a quart of oil burned every 1,000 miles. If you aren't burning anywhere close to this, something is wrong. If you are burning way less, you aren't getting enough oil injected, and your engine doesn't have much chance of lasting long. If you are burning way more, then either you intentionally increased the oil injection and it isn't an issue (1 qt every 500-900 miles), or you you have an oil control ring failure, and oil is leaking into the housing (1 quart every 200-400 miles), or have a severe vacuum problem where the engine is actively sucking oil into the intake. An oil control ring failure will require an engine rebuild to fix, although isn't inherently bad. You will have more oil smoke, you will burn oil faster, your plugs will get fouled faster so your coils won't last as long, but not much else. Let your oil run too low though, and you can fry your engine from being too low on oil. Keep the oil filled above the 1/2 full mark, letting the oil light come on means you are already critically low. Don't overfill though, since overfilled oil spills into the intake and gums up your intake valving, and can easily cause costly repairs. It is also recommended that you use a long necked funnel when you add oil to prevent oil from going down the vacuum line instead of into the engine. Another point to consider though, is that nearly all performance cars out there burn some oil. Most trucks do, many commuter cars do. Toyota considers burning 1 quart every 1,000 miles within acceptable burn rates. Ford considers burning 1 quart every 1,000 miles within acceptable burn rates. BMW considers burning 1 quart every 1,000 miles is actually fairly good. Porsche considers burning 1 quart every 1,000 miles within acceptable burn rates. Do a search for any car you want and "excessive oil consumption". Read the stories people have, and when a dealer has told them that the oil burn rate they are seeing is "completely acceptable." Time and time and time against you will see that 1 quart every 1,000 miles is pretty damn common! But, for some reason, these engines that aren't supposed to be burning oil don't get hammered for burning it (probably because people just don't notice, thanks to a large oil pan), and the RX-8 gets hammered for intentional oil injection by everyone in sight. |
Flooding: (Updated February 15th 2014)
Another major complaint about the RX-8 is the tendency to "flood". What is flooding? Flooding, per the rotary engine term, is when there is too much gasoline in the combustion chamber. This really only happens when driver attempts to start the engine, but the engine doesn't immediately start. The ECU is pumping fuel while the engine is cranking, and if the engine doesn't start up quickly enough, all this fuel just soaks the plugs, washes around in the housing, and keeps the ignition from actually firing. Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system, failing compression, failing battery, and/or failing starter. Every single flood I have seen reported ended up coming down to one of these failing: Battery, Starter, Coil(s), Plug Wire(s), Plug(s), and/or Engine Compression. If it's the battery that failed, the starter can't spin the engine fast enough, so the engine won't get good enough compression, and the air/fuel mixture won't ignite with any force. If it's the starter that failed, the starter can't spin the engine fast enough, so the engine won't get good enough compression, and the air/fuel mixture won't ignite with any force. If it's the engine compression that has failed, the engine won't get good enough compression, and the air/fuel mixture won't ignite with any force. If it's the coils, plug wires, or plugs that have failed, it doesn't matter what compression you can achieve, what engine speed you can reach, you need a spark to light the air/fuel mixture! Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils, plugs, and wires, should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare. You can replace them for as little as about $200. You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, starter, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that. How do I fix flooding? THere are many methods, but the method you should always try first is what Mazda has built into the ECU logic. Hook up another running car to the RX-8's battery with jumper cables to keep the battery from dying. Then hold the gas pedal to the floor (this signals the ECU to stop all fuel injection while cranking) and crank in 5-10 second intervals, waiting the same amount of time between each to let the starter cool down. Repeat this 10 times. Then take your foot off the gas pedal and try to start normally. If it won't start, repeat the series of cranking with the gas pedal to the floor. If it still won't start, do a search on the forums for deflooding DIYs, and pick ONE of the other methods to try at a time. Don't mix methods, that can cause it's own problems. |
Cooling Cooling Cooling! (Updated October 21st 2013)
It is my opinion that more Renesis engines are lost due to cooling system failures than anything else. Perhaps it was not always the case, but as a larger and larger percentage of RX-8s are well past the normal cooling system lifetime, there are more failures occurring from that than anything else. What do I mean by "cooling system failure"? The rotary generates a LOT of heat. All this heat has to be shed somehow, and it's the cooling system that needs to do it. The major parts of the cooling system are: - Radiator (Sheds heat from the water it sees) - Thermostat (sends water that is hotter than the target temperature to the radiator to be cooled) - Water Pump (belt driven from the e-shaft pulley, pushes water through the engine) - Overflow or Expansion bottle (removes air from the system and provides a filling point) - Coolant lines (rubber or silicone hoses that allow the water to remain contained as it moves around the engine bay) If even one of these components fails, at all, even in a slight way, it is possible for you to lose your engine. Our coolant seals are really only trustworthy to a coolant system temperature of about 220F (104C). Past that, you have an increasing risk of having one fail from the heat. If you pass about 240F (115C), you have an additional risk of warping the rotor housings, which is even worse. Making this all much worse, is the fact that our factory coolant temperature gauge (the one in the instrument cluster) won't start moving off of 'center' until 235F-240F (113C-115C) So far too many owners expect to rely on that gauge to tell them if there is a problem, and expect that there is only REALLY a problem if it gets all the way to the right. All the way to the right is 300F+. If you think about his combination a bit, you can see why so many engines are lost due to cooling system failure. So how do I know how hot my engine is running? OBD2 is the answer. OBD2 is an emissions compliance standard that has existed within the US since 1996, and ALL cars that are sold in the US since then are required to be compliant with it. I believe this means that most foreign versions of cars sold in the US are OBD2 compliant as well, though I am not 100% sure about that. Emissions? Yes, Emissions. An engine that is operating near 200F produces less emissions than one that is operating lower than 170F, or higher than 240F. However, the end result of the standard means that the actual coolant temperature is reported through the CAN BUS network (a communication standard), and is available on the OBD2 port. You can get an OBD2 device that reads live data, and get the actual engine coolant temperature. The ECU reports it in C in increments of 1 degree, so conversions to F will be in increments of 1.8 degrees. But it's close enough. The best way of getting at this data is through a bluetooth OBD2 adapter. Plug it in, no wires to deal with, and then pair your smartphone or tablet to the OBD2 adapter. Then download any one of the numerous free OBD2 apps ('Torque' is the best for Android), and you can get a full readout on nearly everything that the ECU can report. You can read/reset CEL codes, read live data, and record data logs. And you can do this with any car you own, or any friends and family that want help. Highly recommended. Bluetooth OBD2 adapters start around $20, and go up to $150. They all generally work, though the higher cost ones are typically longer lasting and/or have faster communications. Exceptions exist however. What can I do to prevent a cooling system failure? Proper maintenance of your cooling system is CRITICAL. Annual cooling system flushes are important if you aren't using Mazda's FL-22. (Why FL-22? Read this thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...licone-238638/) Every 2 years is acceptable if you use that. Mazda says their coolant is good for 5 years, but $40 in coolant isn't worth the risk of a $4,000 engine is it? DEFINITELY replace the coolant by 60,000 miles if it hasn't. Regular coolant flushes will help prevent other cooling system components from failing, however, they will still fail in time. The thermostat is often the first to go, and is a $65 part (at most). I personally recommend upgrading to Mazmart's 172F thermostat to give your system a bit more head-room, but don't go lower than 170F for the thermostat, or you will be causing CELs, poor gas mileage, and power loss (the ECU is expecting at least 170F when up to temp). The coolant bottle is also a common failure point, though usually in the coolant level sensor before a pressure problem with the cap. The sensor is integrated into the bottle, so if your coolant light keeps coming on and your coolant is full, then the sensor has just failed. Replace the bottle with a new bottle and cap for $130ish from Mazmart. WARNING: Regardless of if you or someone else does the replacement, there is a little hose that runs from the front of the bottle to the top of the radiator. This hose is stronger than the radiator nipple it connects to. CUT the hose in half and remove the two halves independently, because breaking that radiator nipple means you HAVE to replace the radiator. It can not be repaired. Mazmart has a bottle listed that includes this small hose for this very reason. The radiator is next, and typically when it starts to fail it will tend to just slowly clog up, with less and less surface area actually shedding heat. A replacement OEM spec radiator is available from Mazmart for $150 (MT, the AT is slightly more). Avoid Mishimoto, it is a well known brand, but it is inferior to OEM, AND more expensive. If you want to upgrade, talk to BHR. They developed an upgrade in the Arizona heat that will outperform OEM and last longer. If you are replacing the radiator, might as well replace the coolant lines too. They can sludge up in several points and cause their own problems. Typically something else will fail first, but if you just replace other parts and not the lines, the lines won't be all that far behind, and might destroy the new parts you installed. Silicone lines will run you around $300, rubber lines are far cheaper. Keep in mind that there are 9 major coolant lines (could someone get me the actual number and list of which ones they are?), so most coolant line kits you see that are 3 piece obviously aren't sufficient. Even the 6-piece kits won't have critical lines replaced. The best bet is to order all new OEM lines individually, rather than a kit. What happens if I see the needle move? Just because the needle moves and you are in danger territory doesn't mean that you automatically have engine damage, but it's likely. Cases have been known where people have avoided damage. It isn't likely though. Once you have fixed the cooling system, you need to test for coolant seal failure. Pressure test the cooling system is a good way (most corner shops), as long as you know that every single other part of the system is fine. Otherwise, get the oil tested (Blackstone Labs) for coolant, get the coolant tested for combustion gasses (most corner shops), and inspect the plugs for the presence of coolant after it sits overnight. Failing any of these means you need a new engine or an engine rebuild. If you are only overheating when stopped or at a low crawl, the problem is most likely a fan airflow problem. Either the fans are running when they should be, or your radiator is getting blocked. Safely stop the car and shut the engine off and see if you can find an obstruction to the radiator or fans. If you suffer a catastrophic cooling system failure that starts spraying coolant everywhere, shut off the car immediately. It is highly unlikely that you will avoid engine damage, but it's possible. As little as 10 seconds of running without coolant in it can be terminal for the engine. In case it hasn't been clear enough yet, you CAN NOT let your RX-8 overheat. |
General issues to keep in mind: (re-write)
Troubleshooting subforum: 2004-2008: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/ 2009+: https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-technical-trouble-shooting-160/ DIYs subforum: 2004-2008: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-do-yourself-forum-73/ 2009+: https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-diy-161/ Most problems that crop up in the 8 start very small and get serious because they aren't addressed. For example coils start going bad, plugs then start getting fouled from excess unburnt fuel, unburnt fuel rapidly degrades cat life, clogged cat can over stress the seals and over cook the O2 sensors, localize heat too much which accelerates oil breakdown and increases engine wear... Most of the owners that remain trouble free are trouble free because they keep on top of their oil changes, their oil level, and their ignition health. Then again, that stuff is like taking cholesterol medication and regular exercise for your heart. They help prevent problems, but it doesn't eliminate risk and it doesn't mean that you still won't die of a heart attack. Mazda factory QC over the engine tolerances has improved quite a bit, but it is entirely possible to be sitting on an engine waiting for any chance it can to fail. It's also entirely possible to completely ignore all the recommendations and get 160,000+ miles out of the engine (one owner came on here thinking her engine was blown, come to find out it was just badly flooded, but she didn't know anything about rotaries and still had it healthy at 160,000 without doing what she should have) It very is much like a heart, or lungs, or whatnot. All you can do is reduce the risk of failure. Cooling and Lubrication are 99% of the battle to keep these engines healthy. Mazda didn't have enough of either from the factory, a flaw that puts us behind the curve. Several mods that are common can go a long way towards improving engine live. Namely the ReMedy water pump and thermostat, BHR ignition upgrade, COBB AccessPORT (for the part that allows you to monitor temps and set a lower threshhold for the radiator fans). Even removing the cat and going with a midpipe helps I think, as it helps keep heat away from the engine, and you don't have to worry about a clogged cat causing more problems. My engine was perfect until my cat failed, and it's never been right since. In spec, not replaceable point, but not back to the above average that it was. If you have a 2009 or newer, you have a Series2, along with the improvements to the engine that should mostly solve the lubrication problems. They still need better cooling. But you also have the warranty. 100,000 miles, 8 years for the engine core. (if you are in that and outside powertrain, a "free engine" may still cost you ~$500 for all the fluids, gaskets, etc... associated with the engine, but not part of it) Another source of problems is repetitive short trips, without getting the engine to temperature for at least a few minutes. Limited internal temp, and a proportionally larger amount of running time is under temp, increases carbon buildup dramatically, which leads to all sorts of further problems. |
Specific Issues: (improve)
TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) You should familiarize yourself with the official Mazda TSBs here: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...4/#post3258090 TSBs ARE NOT RECALLS! They are Technical Service Bulletins, and are nothing more than a set of instructions from the factory to the dealers to tell them how to handle specific customer complaints. You will only have warranty coverage on a TSB IF YOU HAVE AN ACTIVE WARRANTY THAT COVERS THAT AREA OF THE CAR. Most TSBs would be covered under bumper to bumper, which was 3 years 36,000 miles, and is expired for all series 1 RX-8s. A few more fall under the powertrain (5yr 60,000 miles). - Misfires are shown by a blinking check engine light (CEL), and are usually caused by a failing coil, failing plug wire, and/or failing spark plug. They can also be caused by cat failure, engine failure, vacuum leaks, fouled e-shaft sensor, dirty MAF, missing intake screens, aftermarket intake, failing intake valve actuators and a few other items. Start here for diagnosis: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...t-here-222280/ - Water in the tailights. Primarily a 2004 and 2005 problem, but can be seen across all years, including Series2, is a failing tail light gasket that lets moisture into the tail light lens. The improved gasket from the dealer helps, but isn't perfect. You have options for repair, including DIY stuff and aftermarket gaskets. Drilling the tail light is a quick and easy solution, but is not recommended. - The clutch pedal assembly is weak, and over time the pivot points wear through the mounting points, and eventually this will cause a failure in the assembly. A squeaking clutch when you push it and release it signals the issue getting worse. Getting a new assembly only solves it till that one breaks. There are a few options for fixing it, including welding at your local shop, buying a bracket from Race Roots, or buying a fully welded up assembly from BHR. As a result of the NHTSA investigation, Mazda has extended the warranty on the clutch pedal assemblies to 100,000 miles*. If yours starts weakening or breaks, go see a dealer. If they don't believe you, bring your paperwork, or get it here. *Only North American RX-8's. - Discolored or foamy substance on dipstick. The oil collects moisture in colder ambient temperatures. You may notice that the dipstick will look like it has wierd discoloration. This has been discribed as foamy, milkshake, white crap, brown oil, etc... This is normal, and nothing of concern. If you want, you can pay a large chunk of money to make it go away, but there is no harm to it, so just ignore it. Drive your engine harder to cook it off if it bothers you. - MAIC, or "Marbles in a Can" is a fortunately not common issue where you may hear a rattling sound from what sounds like the glovebox area, sometimes accompanied by inconsistent power loss. This is usually Secondary Shutter Valve (SSV) failure, which is typically caused by the valve getting over carboned, from oil burping or oil excessive oil vapors in the intake. Dealers will charge $2,000 or so to replace/clean, but you can DIY it for pretty much free, just look for the DIY thread here. Another possible cause for MIAC is here: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/please-help-potential-new-owner-question-miac-181950/ - Power Steering: Mazda's QC missed a little issue with the coolant overflow tube, as it dumps overflow right onto our power steering connectors (the main power and torque sensor connections). Even without an "overheat" condition, overflow is possible, which in turn can affect the condition of these connections, causing various power steering issues, including complete failure. Then there are other issues that can crop up, including too much salt, dust, or debris interferring with the grease on the u-joint in the steering shaft, rack failure, and control module failure. The u-joint re-greasing is dirt cheap, easy to DIY, the connector quality isn't much harder (clean, replace harness for $100, or eliminate the connections and just make it solid wire). The rack and control module are REALLY expensive however. Most power steering issues were addressed by dealers replacing the module or the rack, when all the car needed was some clean connectors. Ideally, swap the coolant overflow hose to a longer one and run it farther down, where it won't bother anything. This is the main thread for Power Steering issues: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/power-steering-failure-107481/ - Weak Starter: On 2004 and early 2005 models, the starter was pretty weak. Mid 2005, Mazda upgraded the starter that they use, and it works pretty well, and lasts quite a while. The 2004 and some 2005 starter upgrades WERE free, but the owner had to do something about it with the dealer. It was NOT a recall. So if you have a 2004 or 2005, it is entirely possible that you still have the original, and very weak, starter. - Motor Mounts: Our motor mounts collapse/degrade over time. This causes the car to shake more, especially at idle. This isn't the actual engine attachment points, but rather just the vibration dampeners. However it is not inherently a problem that you need to rush out and fix. Adding more vibration to the car isn't inherently bad, but can lead to other problems with rattles and joints wearing down. Most people choose to live with it. - Catalytic Converter Failure: This is too common unfortunately, as the heat and emissions level of the RX-8s engine is not friendly to cats at all. Additionally, most of the encountered failure points on an RX-8 cause misfires, and misfires will destroy a cat quickly. A clogged cat is dangerous to the engine, the car, and your life. If it does fail, you have options: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aftermarket-performance-modifications-23/catalytic-converters-cats-cats-cats-210330/ - Trouble starting: There are numerous things that cause you to have difficulty starting. Here is a thread that goes into all the common ones: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/starting-issues-start-here-222584/ |
Importance of Ignition Health: (review)
************************ READ THIS!!!! ************************ One of the most often overlooked or ignored parts of RX-8 ownership is the health of the ignition system. This includes the ignition coils, spark plug wires, and spark plugs. They fail. Often. So often as to be critical parts of regular maintenance. Before I detail why, check out the first post of this thread here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-trouble-shooting-95/impact-old-coils-wires-plugs-234383/ (owner's post here: https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=189) The owner's power dropped from 199whp to 172whp JUST from failing ignition. That's a 13.5% power loss! Do I have your attention now? Good. Mazda officially lists the plug wires and plugs as part of regular maintenance, but not the coils. Many dealers STILL don't know how easily the coils can fail. And they fail about the same time as the wires and plugs, which is about every 30,000 miles. Some can last longer, some shorter, and it's more related to your total RPMs than it is to your mileage. Highway cruising is easier on the coils than spending a day pounding around a race track. When coils fail, they don't suddenly shut off. They start producing weaker pulses scattered among strong ones. The rate of weak pulses slowly increases and pulses start getting dropped entirely, which is where misfires start. All of this means that you aren't burning all the fuel and aren't using all the air that the engine pulled in for that combustion, and it unburnt fuel and air gets dumped into the exhaust, where it happily ignites with the presence of plenty of heat. This saturates the cat in both fuel and heat, and will rapidly kill the cat (A $1,300 USD replacement). Continuing to drive on a failing cat will add other problems such as engine damage and vehicle fires. I am not exaggerating, this can happen with just a single cat failure! Example: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...e-help-244839/ Plug fouling and wire failure is largely the same result, since all 3 pieces are needed for a complete spark. Foul the plug and it doesn't matter if the coil and wire are good. Break down the wire and it doesn't matter if the coil and plug are good. Symptoms of ignition failure include: Power Loss, mileage drop, unstable idle, bad idle, inability to idle, shaking at idle, unstable high rpm, misfiring, flashing CEL, coughing engine, glowing cat, flooding, inability to start, inability to pass an emissions sniffer test, and just about anything you can think of where a weak or missing spark causes problems. And if one fails, it will cascade to the other trio on the same rotor. A plug that can't fire will start fouling the other. A coil that can't fire a plug starts wearing out rapidly (if you want to test this, just unplug a wire from a plug and run the engine for a while. The coil will rapidly fail. Not unique to rotary engines) Why do coils fail so easily? This is largely because Mazda opted for cheap coils because of RX-7 owner complaints about how expensive their coils were. The RX-7 coils lasted much longer though. So Mazda went cheap, and so we have to replace regularly. And you can't compare to piston engine coils. A piston engine with the same setup of 1 coil for 1 plug has an average RPM of about 2,500rpm and the coil is firing every other revolution, so the coil is firing about 1,250 pulses per minute. Our rotary has an average RPM of more like 4,000rpm, and each coil fires every revolution, so about 4,000 pulses per minute. That's a bit over 3 times more. Even a piston max RPM of about 6,000rpm vs our 9,000rpm makes the difference 3,000 pulses per minute vs 9,000 pulses per minute, or 3 times as fast. If our coils would last about 3 times longer, you are talking an average of 90,000 miles. So keep your ignition healthy! Where can I buy new ignition coils? You have a number of options for coils: - The Cheapest option: BWD/Intermotor coils from auto parts stores like Advance Auto. These ARE OEM coils, just being sold to auto parts stores directly from the original manufacturer. This is common for virtually every OEM part for any car older than about 5 years old. 4 coils, 4 plugs, and 4 wires can be had for around $190-220 total based on whatever promotion is running at the time, shipped to your door for free. They are considered to be the first coil revision and you should expect to need to replace them around 20,000 miles, 30,000 miles max. They often come with a "lifetime warranty" by the auto parts store, which could potentially be leveraged for perpetually new coils. - The Best Upgrade: The BHR ignition coil upgrade can be had for around $500, which eliminates the need to continue replacing coils periodically, as well as deliverying a significantly stronger spark for minor mileage and power gains. It is a proven kit with top notch customer service supporting it. It includes the wires, you still need to add plugs ($80) - The For-Sure OEM: Mazmart sells all 4 coils of the latest OEM coil revision (C) for around $250, (just the coils, you still need to add plugs and wires) Supported by top notch customer service. They will likely last longer than 30,000 miles, but we don't have much solid data on how long the latest coil revision will last. If you are having trouble getting other coil options where you live, or are wary about purchasing coils from other sources, then this is your cheapest option for coils straight out of the Mazda dealer parts network. - The Most Expensive option: Buying from a dealer will run you around $300+ for the coils, $500+ for coils, wires and plugs, and if you have them do the install, expect to get a bill for anywhere from $700 to $1,800. You may not get the latest coil revision, and it is unlikely that the dealer or techs will be able to tell you what coil revision you have. Yes, you are getting shafted if you take this option, so bring lube. - The Highest Risk option: Ebay coils continue to pop up as counterfeit, mislabeled, dead on arrival, and have zero post-purchase support largely. They are the "cheapest" listed price, but when you add that $92 or whatever to the price of anything in the list above from having to do it over again, you can see that they are no longer the cheapest option. Do it right the first time. "Motor King" coils are popping up at an attractive price on Ebay, but are being proven as ineffective, to the point of being unable to get the engine fired. "Mazda" branded coils on ebay are almost always counterfeit. Check the seller's name though, since some of our vendors sell legitimate coils there. The price will be $200+ though. Anything sold as "Mazda OEM" under ~$26 per coil should really be considered as suspect and probably counterfeit. Plugs Always go with OEM plugs. The only reason to go with anything else is if you are turbocharged or supercharged, have researched ALL the options, and decide to go with something different. Even most FI setups use OEM plugs. NGK brand, two each of: RE9B-T <- (trailing / top plugs) RE7C-L <- (leading / lower plugs) You can get them from most vendors, Amazon, and autoparts stores easily. The price range is $18-$20 for each plug typically, $72-$80 + shipping total. Note: Be wary of "LSx D585 coil upgrades", as not all D585 coils are created the same, and the standard generic D585 coil is not properly designed internally for the RX-8's ignition needs. They generally "work", but there are anomalies and performance issues that have to be solved, if they can be solved. Definitely NOT a plug and play option, even if it is advertised as "plug and play". There is a lot more on the subject to understand, so it would be to your benefit if you learned about the needs prior to making a purchase. |
Gas Mileage: (review)
If you are considering, or have purchased, an 8, you will likely have one of 3 opinions on gas mileage: 1) I am buying a sports car, or won't be driving this regularly, so I really don't care about mileage 2) I care a bit about mileage, but I think what I get is fairly reasonable 3) WTF, I am getting terrible mileage, these car's suck! All RX-8's are gas guzzlers. If you have the first or second opinion, then congratulations and join the club. If you have the 3rd, then keep it to yourself, we aren't interested in listening to it. Gas mileage has been discussed, killed, resurrected, killed again, reincarnated, burned alive at the stake, beheaded, cremated, and BURIED AT SEA. Please leave it there. The reality is, a healthy RX-8 will get 17-18mpg city, 22+mpg highway. But 'healthy' means completely healthy: healthy coils, wires, plugs, O2 sensors, carbon free engine, good compression, healthy cat (or no cat), good transmission/diff fluid, no vacuum leaks, clean MAF, clean ESS. Let even one of these slide, and your mileage WILL drop, and it will drop fast. If you believe that RX-8s simply can not get this mileage because you have never seen it, then there is only 1 person to blame, and that is YOU. If you don't get this mileage, then there is something wrong with one of the above points. Or with your foot. Your right foot can make the mileage drop quite a bit as well. And I don't mean granny driving as the answer to good gas mileage. Smoothness is more important than speed. Smooth and fast is better mileage than unstable and slow. People also tend to point at it being a 1.3L engine, and assume that a 240/238/232 hp rotary "2-stroke" engine is as efficient as a 1.3L 4-stroke piston engine (which is probably in the 70-90hp range). This simply is NOT the case. So if you can't get this mileage, start poking around for what is wrong. For reference, here is 8,330 miles of mileage data from my Sevenstock trip around the country in September 2010. The lowest tank was 13.99mpg (14mpg basically), and that was in non-stop tight curves on the Pacific Coast Highway where I was having fun blasting along. Note the 4 tanks over 23mpg, 11 tanks over 20.00mpg. Also note how the highway mileage drops as speeds go up. Once you cross the ~70mph range, the wind resistance does start stacking against you more and more. It's easily a several MPG drop going from a cruise of 70 to a cruise of 80+. And those were probably closer to 85-90. The 18mpg in northern NV wasn't really highway, but it was alot of really straight empty terrain, and speeds that I won't talk about publicly :D: https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1285609880 |
Cost of Ownership. (Consider for deletion)
The cost of owning this car isn't low. It's not as high as some people think, but it is alot higher than people expect that aren't actually thinking it through. DO NOT MAX OUT YOUR FINANCES purchasing this car. Any car really, it's stupid. But here are the costs you should have over the first 30,000 miles: - 1,764 gallons of gas - $5,294 (using 17mpg and $3 per gallon) - 40 quarts of oil for oil changes - $160 - 10 oil filters - $120 - 30 quarts of oil to top off with - $150 - 4 spark plugs - $80 - 4 coils - $140 - 4 plug wires - $60 - 4 tires - $800 - 2 quarts of transmission fluid - $20 - 2 quarts of rear diff fluid - $20 = $6,844 Plus any other failures that occur, such as: - Cat failure - $1,400 (free if within 80,000 miles, but can cause other issues) - O2 sensor failure - $285 - Steering rack failure - $2,000+ - Lower intake manifold or SSV failure - $2,000 (dealer, I don't know the parts cost to have a self cost) Multiply any items by 2 if you purchase them from a dealer. Multiply any items by 3 if you purchase them from a dealer and have the dealer do the labor. |
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Cold Weather (re-write)
I would recommend working on getting a set of alternate rims and winter tires. The rims can be complete garbage (mine are mismatched ), but it makes any winter condition drivable, and even fun! (as long as you are still clearing the snow with your air dam, but if you aren't, no one else should be on the road there anyway, the government would probably be shut down) If you take this route, buy them sometime in the summer when no one is looking and you can pay significantly less. Cold itself is nothing to worry about unless your ignition system is weak. Stay on top of your ignition system (learn to subconsciously pay attention to the stability of the revs and how smooth, or not, the power band is, etc... Start feeling that hesistation and roughness, and it doesn't go away with WOT runs to redline, your ignition system is starting the downhill. Doesn't mean it will go right away, but the longer you wait, the greater and greater your flood risk, power loss, and mileage drop. Also throwing in that I have driven my 8 through the last 4 New England winters. The car you have doesn't matter for anything but sheer ground clearance. FWD vehicles and SUVs are more likely to have more winter friendly tires on OEM, sports cars are more likely to have OEM summer tires, and this is where the difference is. As long as you have ground clearance though, my 8, with winter tires, will out-drive any SUV or jeep on OEM tires. My work is on a hill, the highest point in the state, and each winter I regularly climb the last steep hill into work, often winding my way around stuck SUVs and trucks. Outside of tires, the 8 is low torque, more weight over the rear than most big engined sports cars, and a great set of driver aids. My only concern for driving it in the winter at all is the salt. The only time I got stuck was when it started dumping snow and the plows were not sent out until literally half of the state was stranded in gridlock and ditches, and the snow was simply too deep to push through. The low ground clearance was a bonus though, I was one of the first stuck, and thus got one of the only tow trucks. The tow truck got stuck on my street about 30 yards from my driveway after dropping my 8 off. Even he needed the extra weight at that point. If you drive winter on summer tires, you will crash. If you drive winter on all seasons, it will be touch and go, careful driving, prepare to be stuck periodically If you drive winter on winter tires, rule the road and enjoy up to ~4-5 inches of fluffy snow on the road surface before you get stuck. It's all in your tires ALWAYS. Every car. |
Which oil to use (Updated October 11th 2013)
The most debated question in the community, bordering on a religious war, so I won't try to cover every point here. It boils down to deciding for yourself. Some go with 5w20, to stay with Mazda's recommendation in North America. Some go with 5w30 to go with Mazda's recommendation outside North America. Others go to 10w40 or even 20w50, the most common weights among RX-7s. The general argument revolves around if 5w20 is too thin or not. Typically, you want to go with a heavier weight oil (higher numbers) the hotter the environment you live in. Many manuals outside of North America state something to this effect. So research up on it, and make your own decision. Dino vs synthetic is another hot topic, with the main argument revolving around if the strength of the synthetic is worth the cost, and if there is any better burning (or not better burning) than dino oils, and if any deposits are left behind that could increase engine wear. Mazda only recommends non-synthetic, but does not require it. Your decision. And yes, all weights of oils mix with all other weights of oils, roughly averaging the numbers. Half 5w20 and half 5w40 is roughly 5w30, for example. Not precisely, but close enough. Dino also mixes entirely fine with synthetic. And you know what the kicker is at the bottom of this whole oil debate pile? It doesn't really matter Fresh oil on regular changes is far far far more important than ANY of the above attributes. And the only impact that crankcase oil type and viscosity lubrication has on your engine's lifespan is bearing wear, which is not a severe concern for us, since we have numerous other methods of engine failure that have nothing to do with oil attributes! Outside of lubricating the e-shaft bearings and being available for injection into the combustion chamber (where none of the attributes above matter at all), the oil's benefit is a secondary method of assisting to keep our engines cool. Oil is fantastic for transporting heat out of the engine. And all types and viscosity do that equally well, or as close to equally as won't make a tangible difference. There are claims that synthetic doesn't burn as cleanly as dino. Well, are you really going to argue that filthy dirty 4-stroke dino oil burns cleaner than filthy dirty 4-stroke synthetic oil? NEITHER of them were meant to be burned, and crankcase oil is very very filthy. If you are so concerned about how clean burning your oil is, then get a SOHN adapter and start burning clean 2-stroke! Then you can pick the oil that you want for the high stress, high rpm, high sheer environment of the e-shaft bearings. So if oil weight matters to you, then do some reading on the various opinions, find an opinion you somewhat agree with that is made in reference to the climate you drive in, the drive style you do, and your budget, and go with that. Interested in looking at oil testing data? There is a fairly limited amount of actual test data about oil. What we do have is used oil analysis tests, by companies like Blackstone Labs. These tests measure the amount of contaminates in the oil, things like water, gasoline, wear metals, sulfur, etc... They give a pretty good idea of how well the oil you are sampling protected your engine. The discussion thread about the tests is here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...m-here-184241/ Discussing Oil Oil discussions are generally frowned on by established members. The problem is that there are so many opinion, no consensus, very limited testing, lots of myths, and a colossal amount of misunderstanding. The "oil war" hasn't really ended, and never will. Please just let it be a "cold war" however, and avoid trying to argue about it in random threads. If you, a new member or a new owner, REALLY want to discuss your oil choice, please do it here: https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...thread-248952/ |
Young Owners:
(This was writen to one specific owner, but I am leaving it with the personal and targeted verbage) A side note added: about a year after I wrote this to that specific owner, he totaled his 8. One of the best and most respectable kids to show up on the boards, and it still happened to him. To be brutally honest though, we often make heavy attempts to steer kids (sorry, you are ) away from the 8 as a first car. First cars are usually neglected, abused, and/or wrecked. And we don't imply that it would all be your fault either. My first car last 2.5 months, ending it's life with an SUV landing on it's hood while I was stopped. Shit happens. How prepared are you to lose a car that you will probably form an emotional attachment to? (it happens. Everyone either loves or hates this car) Abusing the 8 doesn't have the same definition as other cars, but, with no real road experience, driving the 8 properly is insanely easy to land you in significant legal trouble. My first day driving my 8 I was up to 123 on I-70 winding through the mountains without any straights before I got woken up from heaven by passing another car like it was standing still, glanced down at the speedo and was shocked to realize how fast I was. Most owners have this same type of experience. If it happens at a bad point, you are talking arrestable. Again, you seem smarter than most teenagers that come on here, and with the money saved up for it, more responsible and probably would take better care of it, but just some things to keep in mind. You can find a great Miata for a few thousand that will help teach you about maintenance while still getting the same handling without nearly the speed potential. Regardless of your decision, I highly highly highly recommend you get to local SCCA autocross events. Seriously. Even 1 event will help improve your driving. Keep doing it for fun and education though, it's the best bang for the buck that you can have in your own car. Driver mods before car mods. |
Automatic vs Manual: (Updated November 13th 2013)
The Manual is overall faster and quicker than the automatic, enough though they both produce about the same amount of torque, or acceleration Gs that you feel. The manual, having the higher redline, just means that it can hold those acceleration Gs, that acceleration rate, for longer before having to shift to a higher gear with a different torque multiplier. One won't really feel faster than the other until you get to 125mph, where the auto's speed limiter will kick in (manual's don't have that). The manual will get there quicker than the auto, but it won't really "feel" faster. The paddle shifters on the 8 are just additional "buttons" that trigger up and down shifts, just like the shifter's + and - gates. You are still asking the ECU "ok, please shift now", and which direction to go. You still have the slush box reaction time, the same shift speed, etc... and the ECU can still decide to ignore your request, or shift on it's own. The higher end supercars with paddleshifters aren't slush boxes, but rather what is essentially a computer controlled clutch foot and shift wrist. It disengages the drivetrain, moves the gears around, and re-engages the drivetrain. In less than a heartbeat. Our auto's don't have that. The RX-8's automatic transmission isn't "Tiptronic". That is a brand name of Porsche transmissions, that a few other manufactuers license the name from Porsche to use. Saying an RX-8's automatic transmission is a "Tiptronic" is saying that the RX-8 has a Porsche transmission in it, which isn't true. Anyone that thinks "it's the same thing!" are misguided. It's like calling the RX-8 a an Izuzu Rodeo since the RX-8 has 4 wheels, 4 doors, an engine, a steering wheel, and some seats, just like the Izuzu Rodeo. Yes, it's an automatic transmission that you can manually shift, but it is not a "Tiptronic". |
So how much power do we have anyway?: (re-write)
Officially, the RX-8 produces somewhere between 228hp and 238hp, depending on what publication you look at. Mazda kept revising the numbers, but the engine's actual output never changed. This is for the 6 port manual transmission engines. The automatics produce less power, because of their lower redline. The 4 port automatics produce around 192hp, and the 6 port automatics produce around 212hp. This is all measurements at the crank. The actual power put down at the wheels is significantly lower. Completely healthy 6port MTs put down about 180whp and 130wtq. The auto's are correspondingly lower. Now, what does this actually mean? Well, first take a look at the numbers. Notice how they are lower than an Evo's 300hp rating. And they are lower than a Mustang's 260hp-340hp. This means the RX-8 is SLOWER in a straight line. If you buy an RX-8, do NOT be shocked that you won't win at the drag strip. If you want to win there, buy a different car. If you buy the RX-8, don't come crying to us later on. We bought the car knowing full well how much power it produced. Those of us that want more do something about it. We don't create threads to whine about it. You can join us in flaming the people that do create threads whining about it, because you were smart enough to learn first. They weren't. Our engine, when every single part of the powertrain is healthy, is at a bleeding edge of performance. It doesn't take much at all in the way of something not ideal for power and efficiency to fall off. The engines all typically fall to around the same point, ~170whp (6 port MT), and from there it takes a ton of problems or huge failures (like excessive carbon caking or cat failure) to really kill the engine. Maintaining it on that razor's edge is the difficulty. |
Power Modifications: (Updated January 26th 2013)
Newbie's Guide to Modding the RX-8: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...rx-8-a-233937/ (I wrote that one too!) 2004-2008 Power Modifications subforum: Series I Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com 2009+ Power Modifications subforum: Series II Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com From the factory, the 8 is VERY well tuned (mechanically). There are only 2 things you can do for easy power: - Custom tune to remove some of the "safe" parts of the tune. The AccessPORT is available for Series1, MazdaEdit is available for Series1 and Series2 - Removing the naturally restrictive catalytic converter. Doing the rest of the common upgrades piston cars get (intake, exhaust, pulleys, etc...) nets you MAYBE 5hp. MAYBE. Depending on the brand, alot of them are inferior to the OEM stock system, and plenty cause you to lose power. Why? The basic engine design/configuration of the 13b used to only put out around 110hp naturally aspirated. Mazda has adjusted and tweaked everything to get it to a razor's edge of how much power they can pull out of the same basic 1.3L engine, and they have over doubled the original hp. A lot of R+D went into squeezing this much power out of the tiny engine, and companies that just slap something together typically make it fall off that razor's edge of peak performance, and the impact is considerable. Think of the engine as already modded to nearly peak N/A HP, and you will start seeing how it's hard to get any gains, and easy to create losses. Another way to think about it would be to think about a Civic B16 engine. It's a 1.6L engine that from the factory makes about 160bhp (plus or minus a bit depending on what car it's in). Someone can take that engine and go all out on modifying it to make as much N/A power as they can. Max power reported seems to be around 240bhp (sound familiar?). This includes more expensive engine management, higher compression, possibly some displacement increase, different cams for port timing changes, etc... So, what if Honda had released the engine from the factory with 240bhp from those changes? Well, think about how these compare to the RX-8's Renesis:
Does it make more sense now? :) Mazda basically already modded the engine to get near max N/A HP, detuning it only slightly to get it to pass emissions and having to add the obligatory catalytic converter. It's difficulty and costly to improve on their design as a result. So...how DO I get more power? If you want power, you have to go forced induction: turbocharger, supercharger, or nitrous. For turbocharging or supercharging, you need a starting amount of about $8,000 to $10,000 for a complete set up. If you find what you think is a "deal", please don't get fooled. If you spent $1,500 on your turbo system, you will still spend $8,000 to $10,000 in modifications, errors, swapping parts, getting stuff to finally work right, and probably an engine replacement along the way. There is NO complete key that is 100% perfect. Every single kit has something wrong with it that you will have to correct. If you don't have an AccessPORT or MazdaEdit, you have very little chance in making it work. Piggy backs will not work with the RX-8, the ECU is too smart. Standalones are possible, but rarely pursued for street cars. If you don't go that route, then the most you can expect is about 200 whp without a custom engine rebuild, which can run you $5,000+. The advancements in porting work have been slow coming, but they are still moving the needle upwards. BDC has the higher N/A power recorded for a non-race team, posted on 5/16/2011 here: BDC Street port vs. stock port dyno comparison - RX8Club.com 223whp: The first car was done in 2007 and was stock engine (fresh), stock ECU, with an AEM intake setup, catalytic convertor deletion, and all else stock. Basically a base mod car plopped on the dyno. The second car, done more recently, is my porting job and heavy intake/exhaust mods. Eric Meyer posted his 233hp dyno sheet here: 233 rwhp dyno sheet - RX8Club.com But keep in mind that it's likely his team invested $100,000+ (just a guess) into the R+D of the engine and drivetrain to get it there (including special treatments of the transmission and diff to reduce drivetrain loss) Don't get fooled by any "chips", ebay or otherwise. There is no "chip" for the RX-8 that will do anything beneficial. The best you can hope for is nothing at all...a costly metallic sticker on your ECU. You can easily fry your ECU with one though, and that is $1,600+. The only reliable method of improving the ECU is through an AccessPORT or MazdaEdit. The piggybacks such as Interceptor-X and GReddy's E-Manager are terrible for the RX-8. You can get it to run, kinda. But you won't be making more power than stock. There are a few other ECU flashing tools out there, but most are no longer supported, and had trouble to begin with. If you think you want to go turbocharging or supercharging your engine, start here: Series I Major Horsepower Upgrades - RX8Club.com and keep reading thread after thread. Get to know the issues people have had, read their responses, their solutions, their frustrations. What about other engines? :rolleyes: Don't even think about posting a question about an engine swap. Please. Do yourself a favor and just avoid clicking the "new thread" button. 20B (3 rotor engines) have been done, but they cost $20,000+ just for the swap itself. 4-rotor swaps have been completed I think twice. They run $100,000+. There have been a few swaps with the older 13Bs from RX-7s. They are cheaper, but still alot of work. There have been a few other successful swaps, including a couple of LSx engines and at least one 2jz engine. More have been started than have been completed, as they usually run out of money, out of patience, or out of desire. Does it mean these other swaps can't be done? Not at all. It just means that you will have all of the pain, frustration, lack of answers, and lack of support.. And if successful, you would have the glory from a few, the hatred of some, and the lack of notice or caring from the rest. |
So what is this engine anyway? It's not a piston engine?: (review)
You may have heard that this engine is not a piston engine. This is correct. The RX-8 is powered by a rotary engine, based on the principle design developed by Felix Wankel, from whom Mazda bought the exclusive rights to develop. The rotary engine is very hard to describe with just words, so here are a few pictures: Exploded view of the engine and it's component parts http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/u...ry-engine1.jpg All put together: http://www.pineappleracing.com/image.../renesis1b.jpg The total package is quite small compared to piston engines: (That is one rotor, housing, and the eccentric shaft) http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3rUmBtZz254/0.jpg So how does it work? Basically, the combustion sweeps the rotor around the e-shaft in an off-center looking wobble. (This is actually an RX-7 engine, but the basics are still the same) http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.c...101/REanim.gif Here is a YouTube video of the components and motions of the engine: Dramatic difference from the traditional piston engine. http://blog.thetechnonaut.com/wp-con...oke-engine.gif So, as you can see, we have 3 combustions per rotor for every full rotation of each rotor. However, due to the gearing reduction around the e-shaft, each rotor spins at 1/3rd the speed of the e-shaft. So when you are at 9,000rpm, each rotor is only spinning at 3,000rpm, however each rotor is producing 9,000 combustions per minute, for a combined total of 18,000 combustions per minute. This is most of what produces the buttery smooth power delivery of a rotary engine. You can also see that the motion is already rotational in nature, rather than the continual start/stop of pistons in a piston engine. This is the other main contributor to the smoothness of the engine. Our "lack of torque" is also a byproduct of this. Each combustion is quite small, and there isn't much leverage provided by the e-shaft angles. So what makes our engine different from prior RX-7 engines that are also listed as 13b engines? Primarily, the difference is the location of the intake and exhaust ports. http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/rot...bout_img04.gif RX-7 engines had their ports on the rotor housing, so the apex seals sweep across them. RX-8 engines, the Renesis, have the ports on the end plates and center iron. This means that the apex seals do not sweep across them at all. This enables unburnt gasoline in the exhaust post-combustion to be more likely to stay in the engine to be burnt the next time around, rather than getting swept out into the exhaust system. This improves emissions and fuel economy. The other primary different from the RX-7 engines is that the Renesis has higher compression rotors, also in the name of power, emissions, and fuel economy. |
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4 port or 6 port, which cars had which?: (Updated January 6th 2014)
At first release, there were two different basic engine designs. The 4-port and the 6-port. (In Europe and some other regions, the 4-port is referred to a "192hp" or "197hp", depending on the transmission, and the 6-port is referred to as "hi-power", "232hp", etc... i believe all of these had the 6-speed manual in those regions.) The difference is essentially that the 6-port has 2 more intake ports than the 4-port. This allows a higher amount of air flow into the engine at high RPM. A 4-port beyond 7,500rpm is being choked by difficulty flowing enough air. The two additional ports in a 6-port provide enough air flow to overcome this problem.Like any other intake flow change, allowing more airflow at higher revs means a shift of airflow optimization away from low revs. The 4-port actually has a few ft/lbs of torque more than the 6-port as a result
Swapping between engines: Of the 3 designs (4-port Series1, 6-port Series1, 6-port Series2), each design is directly swappable into RX-8s that had that same design. So you can use a 6-port from a 2008 Automatic directly in a 2004 6-speed manual with zero modifications, and vise versa. The Series1 and Series2 engines can be physically installed in each other's vehicles, however the OMP and electronics differences are considerable. Swapping between Series1 and Series2 will involve replacing every electronics module in the car, even the ones not engine related. The 4-port and 6-port can likewise be physically installed in each other's vehicles, but there are significant electronic differences that will require replacement or re-coding of at least the ECU, likely additional components. If the 4-port to 6-port swap also includes a change of transmissions then there are additional hardware components that need to be converted as well. Swapping between any of the different engine designs becomes a long and costly process. How do I quickly tell which one a car has? The easiest method is to look for the Upper Intake Manifold (UIM). It's the large curved section of black plastic that curves from the center right side of the engine bay to the back left (from a perspective of standing in front of the car looking at the engine bay). Look for the presence of the two intake runners that lead to the two extra ports. The runners you are looking for are to each side of the main runners, and are positioned lower This is a 6-port. The front lower runner is circled in red https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1384364259 This is a 4-port. There is no extra runner where I made the red circle https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1384364056 |
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Want more technical information from Mazda?: (re-write)
Attached is a PDF page from Mazda regarding some of the more specifics, including the engine limitations of the various configurations, and how the intake runners work An excerpt regarding the dynamic intake: The sequential dynamic air intake system (S-DAIS) operates in response to engine speed by controlling the secondary and auxiliary ports, and opening/closing the variable intake valve installed upstream of the secondary port’s shutter valve. In this way, the system achieves optimal control of intake pressure propagation for each port. RENESIS also takes full advantage of the twin rotor’s charging effect to boost intake for more substantial low-to-mid range torque as well as increased torque and power output at higher engine speeds. Since all valves are formed to streamline flow through the intake passage during valve opening/closing, intake resistance is substantially reduced. The intake system on the 4-port engine has 2 intake ports per rotor, for a total of 4. Intake ports are controlled by opening/ closing of a variable intake valve governing use of the secondary intake port. First, at low engine speeds, only the primary intake port is used, speeding intake flow for improved low-end torque. Next, the secondary port comes into operation at around 3750rpm through the opening of its shutter valve, slowing intake flow to increase low- and midrange torque. In addition, the 6-port engine’s auxiliary port opens at about 6250rpm to maximize intake port area and boost high-end torque and power output to the upper limit. Finally, with the 6-port engine, the variable intake valve opens at around 7250rpm (approximately 5750rpm in the 4-port engine), effectively lengthening the intake manifold for improved mid-range torque. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...al-pdf-256895/ Star Mazda Team Technical document http://www.rx8help.com/doc/StarMazda.pdf |
What does the Check Engine Light (CEL) Mean?: (Updated October 14th 2013)
http://japanautocare.files.wordpress...gine-light.jpg The Check Engine Light, also known as a CEL or MIL, is a light that is lit up on the dash by the ECU when it detects something wrong. It is NOT comprehensive about everything that could go wrong. In fact, your car could be on fire and it wouldn't know. The ECU only monitors EMISSIONS related items, due to the US laws that were enacted in the 1990s regarding emissions and OBD2 compliance. There is a quiet push going on as of this edit to further expand the items monitored, which may result in an "OBD3" in the next 10-15 years. Also, note that it monitors far more than "the engine", for example the ECU knows if your gas cap is loose, and will throw a CEL code for a fuel system EVAP leak. If your CEL lights up, you can clear it a few different ways: 1) Disconnect the battery without reading the code to see what is wrong. This also clears your fuel trims, audio head unit presets, DSC/TCS learned parameters, and your car may idle roughly for the next few drive cycles. 2) Go to an auto-parts store that will read the code for you for free, and then will clear it for you if you wish 3) Buy a code reader for less than a diagnostics fee at a shop, read and clear it yourself, and read all future codes on all your cars for free 4) Buy a bluetooth OBD2 dongle and pair it with your smartphone or tablet and an OBD2 app 5) Go to a shop and pay their one time diagnostic's charge to get the code for you 6) Go to a dealer and pay their even higher one time diagnostics charge to get the code, and then charge you even more for fixing it. When the CEL lights up, there will be ONE OR MORE of these codes stored in the ECU. Some hardware failures will 'throw' more than 1 code: Code:
DTC # Condition Light DC Monitor SelfTest Memory |
I have a Flashing Check Engine Light! (Updated October 23rd 2013)
https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1382552327 A flashing Check Engine light in any modern Mazda means that the ECU is detecting a misfire.. Period. There are no other conditions that will trigger a flashing CEL. Misfires can be caused by numerous different possible failures, and are involved in nearly every common parts failure in the RX-8. They need to be addressed quickly however, as they can lead to additional cascading failures if ignored in addition to killing your fuel economy and power. Start your diagnosis and troubleshooting here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...t-here-222280/ |
- RX-8 manuals: http://www.rotaryheads.com/PDF/RX8/ (re-write)
http://foxed.ca/index.php?page=rx7manual#rx8 (Add owner's manual) |
Warm it up before hard driving! (re-write)
This is true for ANY car out there. Not just rotaries. Let the car warm up before you start mashing the throttle or revving the snot out of it. Keep light on the throttle and under 4k rpm until the water temp needle is pointing straight up (or however slight off of straight is normal for your car). Even then, technically the oil temps aren't fully up yet, but they are getting there. Mazda actually put a lower rev limit when the water temp is under a certain point to help reinforce this. The 2004-2008 RX-8s have a rev limit of ~5,500 rpm until the water temp reaches 100F (I think, might be off). The 2009+ RX-8s have a 2 stage rev cut, at 5,000rpm and 7,000rpm I believe, each at a different water temp point. This doesn't really mean that it's 100% safe just because you have cleared the rev limit, so give it some time, take it easy, and let it warm up. No need to let it idle warm (though some do), light throttle driving is just fine. |
(re-write)
The rotary engine loves revs. It's power is up top, it has no torque down load, and can get carbon choked to death if it only ever stays down low. So the very nature of a rotary engine is higher revs. It only has 3 moving parts, and they handle high RPM very very well. Why? Because nothing is stopping and starting, it's just spinning. The engine is also very small, so there isn't much mass that is actually spinning around. So high RPM is nothing to be afraid of at all, and high RPM is NOT considered "abuse". If you stay low, driving it like a piston engine, you will find that it is even more gutless than common opinion, and you will be killing it from choking it to death with carbon. So low RPM lugging is "abuse" for a rotary, high RPM is where it loves to be. This behavior may be considered as abuse by piston engine standards, but it's not. You can't "beat the s**t out of it" though, in that you can't ignore the maintenance. You have to pay close attention to what it's telling you. Ignition health, oil health, and cooling system health are CRITICAL to maintain at high levels. Let something slip and cascading failures will give you a rather painful kick in the ass. Now, all that being said, high RPM DOES generate a lot of heat. So don't just sit up in high RPM cruising there all the time, you are just cooking the engine and transmission. It loves going full throttle to redline, but then shift and let the engine cruise around 4-5k when you are just driving around. It's happy there. |
How do I shut off an RX-8? (re-write)
This somewhat ridiculous question keeps popping up recently. Other than the obvious "turn the key counter clockwise and remove", there is literally nothing special that you have to do. You will find people that insist that I am wrong in making this statement, but no, it is just that they are taking one symptom and extrapolating preventative measures even further off base than they already were. For example, you will find people that swear by reving the engine to 4,000rpm in neutral and cutting the key out there, with the revs up. They are doing this under the assumption that the faster spinning rotors will help sweep excess fuel out of the rotor housing, to prevent a flood. The problem with this idea is already explained in the Flooding section above. If your engine is already warm, there is no excess fuel being dumped in! (Except perhaps the fuel needed to rev to 4,000rpm). Shutting it off at 4,000rpm is no different in terms of fuel than shutting it off at 750rpm. If your engine is currently cold, then this could only POSSIBLY have an impact if your ignition or starter or battery is failing, in which case 'yes', it might help prevent a flood. But a flood is a symptom of another issue anyway, and only happens on START, not on SHUTDOWN. |
Premix (Updated October 14th 2013)
(Copied from the Newbie's Modding thread, if there are variances between them please send me a PM so I can correct) Premix thread: https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-thread-99636/ Premix is mixing 2-stroke oil with the gas in the gas tank to assist with lubrication of the apex seals. Why 2-stroke? Because 2-stroke (in general) is designed to be burned. Unlike 4-stroke that you use in during oil changes. Why premix? This gets a bit more vague when answering. The short answer is as noted, to assist with apex seal lubrication. But do we need it? That's a tougher question to answer with facts. Some people swear by it, others do just fine without it. Series 1 has 2 injectors pointing at the side seals, Series 2 adds a center injector to help with lubricating the center of the apex seal. Mazda added this, so they must have found excessive wear in the center of the apex seal, so it's circumstantial evidence for the need to premix. It's hard to say if this will save your engine from apex seal wear failure though. About the only confirmed difference premixing really makes is that the carbon buildup inside the engine appears to be "softer". In theory, makes it easier to clean, and if it comes off it won't come off in dangerous flakes that could cause carbon lock. Which premix to use? Lots of debate here too. There are lots of options, and not all of them are even oil. The list below is ordered from most ideal at the top, least ideal/not recommended at the bottom. Idemitsu Premix is generally considered to be the best out there. The only draw back to it is accessibility in that you have to order it, and there are minimum order quantities. Often a member here will order a larger case and split it with locals, making this a bit easier, but it's also usually a 1-time thing. Amsoil Saber Pro is highly regarded, and a bit easier to get than Idemitsu. JASO FC and ISO oils basically other oil brands of the same type and grade as the two items above. May be easier to obtain than those. TWC-3 Oils are usually easy to find, however it's not likely that you are doing much good with them. Not much harm, but small engines that require this type of oil can fail due to lack of lubrication from it, so it might not be sufficient for us. Post from Emery on this:
Originally Posted by Emery_
(Post 4350210)
I think some things should be clarified, after several PM's between me and STEALTH and doing some online research on TCW-3. It is definitely designed to be burnt and fully combust without leaving any residue or ash (if it is a synthetic ashless oil). It is made WITHOUT any metallic additives, as it is meant to burn ashless it does not contain any.
While it probably wouldn't do any harm to the car (besides the catalyst), the problem with TCW-3 lies within it's lubricating capabilities. It is not as good as an oil at lubricating as a ISO or JASO FC certified oil is. TCW-3 is an oil that is not good enough to lubricate snowmobiles and motorcycle engines, and has lead to failure to those engines that TCW-3 oils were used in. Not because the oil itself caused the failure, it just didn't serve it's purpose in lubricating the bearings and engine parts that needed lubricity, hence the failure. So what I'm trying to get at is... TCW-3 oils suck as a lubricating oil. A JASO FC and ISO oil would do a much better job. TCW-3 premix is not the worst thing you can put in the car though, it shouldn't harm it, and it should lubricate some what, but it just isn't the best lubricant we would want for our engine; we would want to get the best we could in there. I just wanted to clarify this and explain some of these details, so that people using TCW-3 as premix don't get scared and think that they have potentially harmed their engine by using a oil with metallic particles (not true) that isn't meant to combust in their car (not true as well). If you were using TCW-3 oils as I was, you should definitely switch to something else like idemitsu or any other 2-cycle oil JASO FC or ISO rated. This is one long assss thread, and reading through it is a pain, but if one does so you would find how contradicting a lot of the information is. I just wanted to make it easier for some people, and so that others don't make the same mistake I and many others have made. Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant (Lucas UCL) is a non-oil you can find out there, but we can't recommend it. We can't prove that it causes any fuel filter problems, but for some unknown reason it shows up in a significant percentage of fuel filter problem threads (>2 in 3 threads at a guess). Doesn't even make sense why it would cause problems since it's still just a liquid that can go through the filter, but often fuel filter problem threads include the owner using it for a while before hand, and then stops using it and the problem clears up. How much premix? The standard amount is about 1oz for every 2 gallons of gas. Some people go 1oz for every 3 or 4 gallons, and some go for 1oz to 1 gallon. 1oz for 1 gallon is getting on the high end though, so don't just use that to use it. Dig into why you want that much. One of the common reasons for going to 1oz to 1 gallon is for a track day. Lots of heat means a bit better lubrication could be a good thing in the end. Note that these values are for how much fuel you are putting into the gas tank. So if you are filling up at halfway and adding 7 gallons, then about 3.5oz is ideal. If you never fill till the light comes on, then around 6.5oz is more accurate. Some premix containers come with a measuring method built right into the top, otherwise it might be useful to find some small plastic containers of the ideal size to keep several on hand. I lost them in a prior move and haven't replaced them, but for a while I was using four 6oz bottles that were originally intended for hair products. Clean them out thoroughly, let them dry, fill ahead of time, and keep tucked in the car to easily add when I fill up. If you opt for this and don't use glass bottles, I'd recommend replacing the bottles periodically, maybe every 6 months. Most plastics aren't of a grade that is designed to hold petroleum products, and it will start to break down from the inside after a while. |
Trying to figure out the difference between the years? Colors? Options?
Go here: Spec Decks, Color Charts, and Pricing - Zoom44 Year by Year Changes - LionZoo There was a generation change from 2008 to 2009. This means that 2004-2008 RX-8s (Series 1) are NOT the same as 2009-2012 RX-8s (Series 2). There are many changes between the cars. A full list of changes is here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-te...s-i-ii-161665/ The Series 2 RX-8s are generally "better" cars, with most of the changes being good changes. The Series 2 RX-8s have significantly reduced aftermarket support however, so modifications possible are either much more limited, more expensive, and/or will require some pioneering on your part. Colors possible: Black: 2004 2008 Brilliant Black Clearcoat (A3F with Clearcoat) (PZ without Clearcoat) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...-blacks-21462/ 2009+ Sparkaling Black Mica https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...-micas-175097/ White: 2005 2006 Whitewater Pearl (25D) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...-pearls-51410/ 2007 2008 Crystal White Pearl (34K) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...pearls-149852/ Grey: 2006 2008 Galaxy Gray (32S) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...y-grays-86431/ 2004 2005 Titanium Gray Metallic (29Y) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...m-grays-39366/ 2008 2008 Metropolitian Grey (36C) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...y-mica-155771/ Silver: 2004 2008 Sunlight Silver Metallic (22V) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...silvers-53580/ Red: 2004 2008 Velocity Red Mica (27A) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...ty-reds-39071/ 2006 2006 Copper Red (32V) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...shinkas-86434/ Blue: 2004 2006 Winning Blue Metallic (27B) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...g-blues-23169/ 2006 2007 Phantom Blue (32C) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...m-blues-86432/ 2007 2008 Stormy Blue Mica (35J) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...e-mica-102515/ 2009+ Aurora Blue https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...ica-r3-173538/ Green: 2004 2005 Nordic Green Mica (27C) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...-greens-39207/ Yellow: 2004 2004 Lightning Yellow (A4J) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...yellows-33458/ Purple: 2005 2005 Black Cherry Mica (28W) https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...shinkas-56131/ Major Trims and Packages The following applies to the US only. If someone from Europe wants to write up the differences there, I'll happily include it. In 2004, there was only 1 "Trim" level, officially: Base In 2005, an additional trim was officially added: Shinka. For 2004 and 2005, all commonly referred to trims were option packages. This means that all 2004 and 2005s will NOT list their trim level in 3rd party databases. You have to visually take a look to see what is in the car. For 2005, most cars will show as "Base/Shinka", meaning "Base or Shinka, we don't know". Major Option Packages, and later trim levels (only significant parts of the packages are listed)
If a car got the 6-speed manual transmission, it automatically got the 6-port engine and the Sport Suspension package. So having an Automatic transmission and not having any of these packages left you with what we have termed the "Base Automatic". These are actually rare, since even many of the lower trim automatics were ordered with the Sport Suspension as well, even if not with Touring or Grand Touring packages. The Base Automatic was most remarkably different in that it was a combination of missing so many things that made the RX-8 good. It was missing the higher RPM redline, missing the better suspension, missing the better brakes, missing the carbon fiber driveshaft, and it's 16" wheels make it look a bit out of proportion with more wheel gap than even the stock 18s. It can't really even be referred to as more focused on touring, since it was missing nearly all the driver comfort features too, like leather, heated seats, premium audio, moonroof, etc... Largely, it's recommended to avoid these, since they are likely priced the same as RX-8s with the more desired features, but you get so much less for your money. The cost of converting a Base Automatic to even a Sport Automatic would be more than the purchase price of the car at this point. Special Editions In 2005, Shinka as a trim was basically a GT with the unique Black Cherry Mica exterior paint, parchment color leather interior, upgraded shocks, and a few minor items like satellight radio and a eurethane foam filled front crossmember In 2006, the major option packages were converted to official trim levels, and were largely the same. Shinka was retained, however Black Cherry Mica was not. Shinkas could now come in a number of different colors, however of those colors, only Copper Red Mica was available on the Shinka. In 2007, Shinka was dropped, however the 40th Anniversary Edition was released. It was basically the same as the Shinka of prior years, only a unique Metropolitian Grey Mica color exterior, with an orange/brown interior. All other Shinka special items transfered to the 40th. In 2008, the 40th was dropped, and not replaced by anything 'Special'. In 2009, Touring was dropped, and R3 was introduced. R3 was the first significantly different trim produced for the RX-8, including some of the driver features from the GT trim, but not including the main 3 GT items that increase weight. So no leather, no heated seats, and no moonroof. The seats were rather expensive Recaros, and the exterior bodywork was changed rather noticeably from the Sport and GT trims. They also got unique 19" wheels. The R3 was only available in a few colors in each geographical region. The US got Velocity Red Mica, Sparkling Black Mica, and Aurora Blue Mica. Only Aurora Blue was not available on the GTs and Sports. Canada, Japan, Australia and the UK got Crystal White Pearl R3s, with one of the other colors as well (varies, and I am unsure which countries got which) The 2009 trims remained largely unchanged through to the final production year: 2011. Options Navigation: Navigation was an option for all trim levels, and was not automatically included for any trim. It was expensive (+$2,000), and not all that good, so it is also fairly rare. That doesn't mean that it's valuable however. Updates are almost non-existant, so about all it's good for now is the motorized hood is popular among people that install tablets or mini-PCs in the hood. If you paid for it brand new, you likely wasted the entire price of adding it. Appearance Package: The appearance package for the Series1 includes the front lip and side aero flares. It was not included automatically on any trim, but was an option for all. At a guess I'd say roughly 40% of RX-8s had this installed at the dealer or factory. (total WAG). The appearance package doesn't make any appreciable difference in the drag or downforce of the car. Rear Spoiler: It is NOT a wing, it is a spoiler. There is a difference. Wings add downforce and drag, spoilers reduce drag, and sometimes reduce lift (which is the opposite of downforce, and reducing lift doesn't mean increasing downforce) The rear spoiler was not included automatically on any trim, but was an option for all. The rear spoiler is actually functional, decreasing the coefficient of drag by 0.02. Rotary Accents: The rotary accents are silver or chrome plastic inserts that fit on the front and rear rotary symbols that are molded into the bumper. They are rather expensive from a dealer, and they are often lost if the bumper flexes, like slowly bending against a parking curb from mis-judging the distance. |
...still ready to buy? What you should ask and look for
So, if, after reading everything above, and you still want to purchase an RX-8, here is a list of things to look for and/or ask questions about. Private sellers are more likely to know the answers, dealers less likely. Note: These are in ADDITION to any questions that you should ask of any car you are thinking about buying, regardless of year, make, or model. These are RX-8 specific questions only. Any item with a blue Mazda next to it can be answered by calling Mazda if the seller doesn't know, (or you think they are making it up / lying) Any item with an orange year (like 2004) next to it means that the question applies for that year. (in no particular order) - Engine ever replaced [Mazda] - - Mileage on current engine [Mazda] - Engine Compression - Catalytic converter replaced - Mileage of last coil change - - Has it ever had one or more coils fail on it with the current cat? - Mileage of last plug change - Mileage of last plug wire change - Has it ever been flooded? (cat life remaining info) - Tail lights ever replaced? [2004, 2005] - - If not, have the seals ever been replaced, or the tailights modified to drain water? - Oil consumption (ask in how many miles between adding a quart or half a quart, and have them tell you which it was)) - MSP 13 performed by a dealer, and date / mileage [Mazda 2004, 2005] - Gas mileage typically seen - Number of miles typically on the trip odometer when the low gas light comes on (yes, ask both gas mileage questions) - Starter replaced to the upgraded version [2004, 2005] - Temperature control knob ever replaced or repaired [2004, 2005] - Clutch pedal assembly ever replaced, re-welded, or re-inforced - Cranking time before starting when cold - Cranking time before starting when hot Come back here with the answers and we can give you a heads up or a general idea on any red flags or warnings to keep in mind. Not all of them would mean "don't buy", but may help reduce the asking price. Mazda North America Operation contact info: By Phone: 800-222-5500 Monday – Friday, 6:00am to 4:45pm PST Mazda North American Operations P.O. Box 19734 Irvine, CA 92623-9734 Attn: Customer Assistance Center |
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So I need a compression test right? (Updated November 14th 2013)
Yes. And it can not be done with a standard analog compression tester for piston engines. A typical cheap analog tester just plugs into a spark plug port and as the engine cranks, the needle moves, and you can easily see where it's swinging to every compression stroke. 1 spark plug, 1 cylinder, 1 compression number. The rotary however is 1 spark plug, 3 rotor cavities, 3 compression numbers per revolution. There is no way for a simple analog tester to record each face of the rotor independently as it spins, updating each number correctly as it compresses. Piston engines also have relatively the same compression number regardless of how fast the engine is pumping. If there is a loss of compression due to a seal or whatever, there will be some loss as it compresses, and a slower RPM will read slightly less as it allows slightly more time to leak. Rotary engines have plenty of 'gaps', and there is a very real and measurable difference in compression depending on engine cranking speed. The faster it spins the higher the compression. You can even remove the apex seals completely, and it gets enough compression at 9,000rpm to stay alive, though not much below that it won't. (incidentally, this is an often over-looked dynamic of how the engine produces it's power curve, and how it doesn't have severe drop-off in power the higher you go in RPM the way piston engines do, and one of the reasons low rpm torque is so poor. Not the only reason, but a contributing factor). So, in addition to the 2 sets of 3 numbers for each of the 3 faces of each of the 2 rotors, you need the crank RPM for the test. A normalization chart based on RPM determines if you are pass or fail. https://www.rx8club.com/attachments/...l-2%5B1%5D-jpg Many dealers also obtain a BARO voltage reading test to determine vacuum as another method of determining pass or fail. Vacuum is related to compression, but it isn't the same thing, and is possible for them to differ more than expected. There have been quite a few reports of Mazda techs returning BARO numbers that clearly fail and stating that they pass, so if it fails compression but passes vacuum, I'd question the techs quite a bit about making sure they did it right.
Originally Posted by omgitsdomie
1. While i've been searching around for rx8's there are some at different dealers. EX: an rx8 at a Nissan dealer. How would you go about asking to get a compression test since usually most dealers wont let you take a car somewhere without a representative, and usually they only go with you only for test drives, and test drives only?
Your best bet is to simply ask the dealer if you can take it to get a compression test. If they decline, they ask if they can do it. If they still decline, then they probably have something to hide and you should immediately cross that 8 off your list, no matter how much surface appeal it has. No reputable dealer will object to having one of their cars checked over by a 3rd party, ESPECIALLY when it's a particular check that only Mazda dealers can do. A129 million point inspection means nothing if they don't have a rotary compression tester to check the most critical part. Or convince them to cover the engine with an extended warranty on THEIR dime. "Hey, if you can't check the engine, I'm taking a risk buying it, and you need to cover it in case I'm buying a time bomb." |
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I got my compression test. What do these numbers mean? (re-write)
You should have gotten numbers in a format something like this: Rotor 1: 7.5, 7.6, 7.5 Rotor 2: 7.2, 7.3, 7.3 250 RPM - The 6 numbers, 3 for each rotor, are your compression scores, one for each face of each rotor in the engine. - If you don't have all 6 rotor face scores and at least 1 RPM number, your compression scores are going to be vague and hard to interpret. - You may also have your compression scores in a different scale, such as PSI. - The RPM is the speed at which the test was done. - The RPM is critical to interpreting the numbers, as rotary compression changes with engine speed, especially at low RPM. - Since the engine is spun by your starter, this is ALSO a good indication of the health of your starter! The general guideline for how good, or bad, the scores are, WHEN NORMALIZED TO 250 RPM AT SEA LEVEL! - 8.5 and up: Congratulations, you have a stellar engine! Compression scores this high are rare. If you think that this may be too high, there may have been excessive oil in the housing. - 8.0-8.4: This is a very good engine! You should have very good power and as long as you stay on top of the rest of the failure points possible, it should last a long time - 7.5-7.9: This is an acceptable engine. Most engines from Mazda seem to be in this range after the break-in period. Stay on top of the other failure points possible, and you should get at least 40-60k more out of this engine, if not more. - 7.0-7.4: The engine has some life left in it, but start looking for replacement options. Compression loss is going to start speeding up from blow-by combustion gasses eating away at the seals. - 6.5-6.9: Officially failing. The engine doesn't have all that long to 'live'. Compression loss is accelerating due to blow-by. - 6.0-6.4: Failing significantly. Very prone to flooding even with new starter, battery, and ignition. It will have trouble starting when hot, power loss especially down low, and noticeable difficulty idling. - 5.5-5.9: Failing badly. Extremely prone to flooding. Will be nearly impossible to keep it idling when hot. Significant power loss. - 5.0-5.4: This engine is probably only able to start with a pull start, daily use is nearly impossible. - Under 5.0: How is this engine even running!?! Caveats: - If the test was done incorrectly, this can skew the numbers up or down. - If the engine has excessive oil inside the housings, the compression numbers will be reported as higher than they actually are when the engine is running - If the test was not done at 250rpm and at sea level (neither of which is likely), the numbers you have will need to be normalized to 250rpm at sea level. Use Mazda's calculator here: Foxed.ca - Rotary Compression Calculator - This is largely my opinion, based on seeing hundreds of compression scores on the site over the years. I am not using anything scientific to back it up. As always, your mileage may vary. The black line is the failing line. Any 1 rotor face at a 6.9 or lower is failing. https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1384536513 |
I am buying it! What should I address first? (Updated October 25th 2013)
Generally, the more history on these items you can get from the prior owner, the better. These are all RX-8 specific. They are in addition to typical items like brakes and tires. Every item on this list is on it because it either fails regularly OR a failure of the point will result in significant cascading damage and costly repairs. This is also the long term recommended maintenance list from us here on RX8Club.com. Car mileage over 30,000: - Replace Ignition coils - Replace Plug wires - Replace Spark plugs - Clean MAF (mass air flow sensor) - Clean ESS (e-shaft sensor) - Reset ESS profile - Clean power steering connections - Clean battery terminals and clamps - Replace transmission fluid - Replace coolant (Mazda FL-22 is highly recommended, read this thread for why: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...licone-238638/) - Replace air filter - Replace brake fluid (fluid in the brake lines AND the clutch line) ~$300 USD in parts if you shop smartly. Car mileage over 60,000: ...all above, plus... - Clean all chassis electrical grounding points - Replace accessory belts - Clean OMP lines - Replace rear differential fluid - Replace thermostat - Clean / Straighten AC condenser fins - Clean / Straighten oil cooler fins - Inspect catalytic converter - Clean / Inspect intake valving - Consider / inspect all points in 90,000+ as well, many items fail early ~$130 USD in parts if you shop smartly. Car mileage over 90,000: ...all above plus... - Replace coolant bottle - Replace radiator hoses - Replace radiator - Replace front O2 sensor - Replace motor mounts - Inspect clutch pedal assembly for flex / weld breaks ~$900 USD in parts if you shop smartly. Obviously if you get information about any of these items already addressed, it will help to reduce the list / cost. Get as much certainty as you can though! All cooling related items can cost you your engine! Even as soon as the same day you take the 8 home with you. It has happened more than once. The rest can be just as critical in how much it can cost you. Note: This isn't a dealer's maintenance list that is filled with questionable fluff. Every single one of these items is something that typically fails in that mileage range, and for each item, if it fails it will either A) strand you, or B) cause significant and costly additional damage. |
Key System Functions and their Critical Components (Updated April 13th, 2014)
See the next post for more details about each part, pictures, locations, and what impact they have. Starting the Engine
Generating Power at Full Throttle
Keeping the Engine at a Cruise
Keeping the Engine at an Idle
Managing Engine Heat
Managing Exhaust Emissions
Changing Gears
Bringing the Car to a Stop
Providing Electrical Power
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Critical System Components (In-progress April 13th, 2014)
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USA Engine Core Warranty Extension: (Updated November 13th 2013)
Partly for public relations, partly for emissions compliance, Mazda extended the Powertrain warranty coverage on the engine core components from 5 years 60,000 miles to 8 years 100,000 miles. This applies to ALL RX-8, regardless of model year. Go to: Mazdausa.com -> Owners menu, Warranty option Powertrain Limited Warranty Mazda warrants that the Powertrain Components of new Mazda cars and trucks will be free of defects with normal use and prescribed maintenance for 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. Ordinary maintenance items, adjustments, parts subject to normal wear and certain other items are excluded. This “limited warranty” is transferable during the warranty period on all new Mazda vehicles sold and serviced in the United States. RX-8 Rotary Engine Core Limited Warranty Extension Mazda Motor Corporation is extending the warranty coverage on Rotary Engine Core Components on all RX-8 vehicles produced after the 2004 model year. The warranty coverage for the Rotary Engine Core Components is extended to 8 years (96 months) from the original warranty start date, with a 100,000 mileage limitation. The following is a list of components covered by this warranty: - Rotary Engine Core - Rotary Housing and Internal Parts - Internal Seals and Gaskets
Obtaining Warranty Coverage: (Updated November 13th 2013) In simple terms, a warranty is when a company legally accepts financial liability for a failure for a specified time period. This doesn't have to be the manufacturer, though it usually is. When someone (a manufacturer, dealer, finance company, etc...) issues a warranty, they are accepting liability for that period of time/distance, accepting that any issues within the warranty coverage areas are either A) not supposed to happen or B) happen infrequently enough that they will be able to cover the cost of the repairs from the warranty charges from others that don't. Legally, it is only A), but practically, it is both. When something breaks on your car, and it should be covered under warranty, your request for warranty service is legally a request for the warranty issuer to accept liability for damage/repairs as agreed. If the warranty issuer accepts liability, which is usual, then they reimburse the shop for the costs of repairs. This is true even of dealers. Dealers charge the cost of repairs to Mazda USA, and get reimbursed. They make a lot of money on engine replacements. This is a critical point to keep in mind. The dealers can choose to not even file for warranty coverage (usually due to laziness), or they intentionally or accidentally misrepresent your car and modifications to Mazda USA during the discussion when Mazda is deciding on if they will accept the liability or not. If a warranty issuer decides they don't want to accept liability, then there is a fight ahead, at some level. Dealers are notorious for making this decision without even asking their parent company. Warranty requests are something of a mark against dealers I think. However, another critical point to recognize is that when a vehicle that is still within warranty period is denied warranty coverage, the warranty issuer has the burden of proof legally. They have to prove that a non-OEM part, a non-approved action, or a lack of required action caused the failure. If your only mod is a short shifter and your visor breaks, they can not possibly prove the link legally, because there isn't any. (Dealers have been known to try crazy stuff like that). If your transmission syncros fail though, well, there is more gray area. Legally, they have to prove the short shifter caused it, but there is enough gray that they might get it by. Maintenance records is the big one. For all of history of warranties being issued, dealers have asked for maintenance records as proof of service before coverage. However, it isn't actually proof. Records simply close a loophole that they might try to exploit to get out of accepting liability. A vehicle with no service records at all can have an engine failure, and the warranty issues has to prove that a lack of service caused the failure. Legally. Of course getting to that point might still be costly fighting that battle, whether in time, money, and/or stress. They "win" alot of the warranty requests because the owners don't know any better, aren't prepared to fight them, or they are flat out lied to. Talking about all manufacturers here. Mazda is a bit better than most in my opinion, though they are certainly not exempt. Given the history of failure with this engine, if it got to a legal fight, Mazda has very little chance at winning unless there was something changed about the engine itself (turbo, supercharger, oil, seals, rebuilt, etc...). But you don't want to get to that part. So in the end it comes down to 2 realistic options: 1) Build a relationship with your neighboring dealer, soaking the extra cost of time and money for routine maintenance so you develop that relationship and grease the gears if something warranty pops up, or 2), do everything yourself, and any warranty claims are more casual attempts where you are willing to take it on yourself if denied. |
Wait. Why would anyone in their right mind buy an RX-8?
Everything above is practically screaming at you not to buy an RX-8 isn't it? Well, yes and no. If you are hearing that loud and clear, and do not place much value in things like "joy", then this isn't the car for you. Find something else. We have no interest in owners that hate the car because they purchased it with their eyes shut and then got punched in the face for wandering around the rotary world without paying attention. The RX-8 has issues, yes. But so do plenty of other cars out there. Cars that people pursue passionately despite constant problems. Pretty much the entire British and Italian sports car and roadster categories fall under this. It doesn't take much looking to find that just about any car of passion has both sides of the passion coin. You will become emotional about this car unless you ignore it and move elsewhere. It will happen. And that's really the whole point. We love this car. It's an emotion to us. Inherently not logical or reasonable. The people that dislike the 8 do so passionately as well. Everyone likes to come up with logical reasons to like or dislike it, but in the end it's all about how the car you drive makes you feel. If the only way your car impacts you is not feeling wallet-raped every month, then you are going to bias toward cost efficient cars. For some ex-owners that hate the RX-8, the feeling is one of devastation, anger, even betrayal. Largely, those owners bought it and either tried to make it something it's not, or bought it without any idea of what they were getting into. For most of us, the only feeling we pursue is that what plasters that grin to our face. And everyone gets it differently. The costs of ownership are high for us. But so are the rewards. For most of us, the rewards outweigh the costs. The reward of joy is something that we passionately pursue. Continually. It never gets old, it never becomes something less valuable. For many of us, that joy is what life is all about, and we found something that speaks to us, something that gets us there. Definitely rule out any vehicles that don't make sense financially. But if it's between two or more cars that are all reasonably affordable to you, you will end up picking the one that makes you feel the best. Or gives you the feelings you are seeking most accurately. Too many people out there only want their car to leave them alone. They don't want anything having to do with cars, but in the end still have one because of the basic need for transportation. They want to be isolated from the road, from other cars, from other people. They want the car to be efficient so it doesn't cost them too much, they want it reliable so they don't have to pay attention to it. To anyone that asks, I always tell them: Find a car that speaks to you. Find one you enjoy. One that puts a smile on your face. There is nothing else like it. It doesn't have to be a rotary, good handling, or even pretty. If it fits you, then it's a perfect fit. Enjoy! This is another thread to go through that has probably sold more 8s than any single salesman out there: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...-things-67045/ It really shows what it is about the RX-8 that we love. |
So if I get one, what can I do to help make my engine last? (re-write)
For this, you have to understand that each different failure method has to be addressed individually. Some solutions help more than one aspect, but if you ignore one, it's probably going to be the one to bite you. First Note as you read these: There are some "solutions" presented which conflict with causes listed. Example High Load High RPM helps carbon, but hurts side seal and cooling. It's the excess that gets you into trouble. Don't stay high RPM all of the time for carbon, because you are dramatically increasing the chance of heat related failures, but don't avoid high RPM either because it is increasing the chance of carbon related failure. Dip your feet in both pools... Second Note: These are fairly basic concepts. They can get far far far more involved. Pursuing any of these should be preceded by research. Failure causes from the list in post 2: - Excessive carbon buildup accelerates seal wear, causing compression loss - Excessive carbon buildup unseats the apex seals, causing compression loss It is nearly impossible to prevent all carbon buildup in our engines. But some things can help make an impact: A) High RPM at full throttle (commonly known as "redline a day") produces lots of heat and energy along with high air/exhaust velocities, which can help is breaking down the carbon and blowing it out of the engine. An engine that only sees low RPM and low load (as many automatics do) has been shown to have significantly more carbon buildup than one that is rev'ed hard often. This will NOT prevent all carbon. B) Premix. Premix is largely a benefit for apex seal wear, however it has been shown on engine teardowns that the carbon in an engine that was premixed is 'softer' than carbon in an engine that wasn't, and seems to lend a slight benefit in this area to decarbing C) Seafoam / Decarb / Steam Cleaning. See my testing thread here for the effectiveness of it: https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...r-pics-241867/ Soaking with seafoam simply doesn't remove any appreciable carbon. The only way to really strip carbon periodically is with ingestion while the engine is running. And in this circumstance, seafoam is just as effective as distilled water. Seafoam is also ~100 times more expensive per unit of measure, so there isn't much of a reason to actually use seafoam. It is also more benefitial to ingest the water at higher RPMs, and to feed both rotors at the same time. This will indeed strip away carbon. However, it is a VERY slow process. Do not expect a single gallon will do it. 1.5 gallons of water, 0.5 gallons of washer fluid (it's a water/meth mix), and the carbon near the seals was less than half gone. Removing carbon is always a good thing, however don't expect stellar results, and don't think that it's removing all of the carbon, or even that it's removing carbon where it needs to. If you do this, you will need an oil change immediately after at a minimum. If you have a cat installed, the cat can start glowing, so you will need to take breaks to let it cool down. May kill the cat and/or reduce it's life span. See the testing thread for details. D) Water/Meth injection. W/M injection is usually targeted almost entirely for forced induction as a safety margin by increasing the effective octane rating of the fuel. However it does have side benefits of producing remarkably clean engine internals. If you want to learn more, read up on this opening post on RX7Club: (Making The Case For The <Rotary> Powered FD: The Fix - RX7Club.com). He largely talks about methods of failure for the RX-7, and it has a slightly different application and goal that the writer was going after, but still valuable nuggets in there for our engine's long term health and how effective it is at removing carbon. However, note that W/M is not legal everywhere, many racing organizations prohibit it, it usually requires some sort of tuning, and kits are usually set up to deliver under boost, which an N/A engine won't have. I don't know of anyone running W/M on an naturally aspirated Renesis for the purposes of cleaning only. W/M injection solves a few of the steam and seafoam treatment weaknesses, namely the inability to deliver either with the engine under full load while the car sits in your driveway. Injection also gets the intake valving that none of the other treatments do. - Excessive heat buildup warps the housings to one degree or another, preventing the apex seals from sealing, causing compression loss This can be caused from a few different sources. Probably most common is a coolant system overheating, followed by a cat clogging. Most housing warp failures end up leaking coolant and/or oil directly into the housing because the seals and rings can no longer seal properly. The greater the warp, the faster the oil and coolant leak. (Separate from the oil injection. Oil injection rates shouldn't ever produce oil smoke from the tailpipe, which oil control ring failure usually does). This can be a sudden failure from any single cooling system component. A suddenly stuck thermostat, a clogged radiator, too low coolant without realizing it, too much high RPM, high ambient temps in stop and go traffic, etc... A) Remove the cat, install a midpipe. This isn't kosher with the EPA, environmentalists, federal government, most state governments, emissions inspection stations, your spouse's nose, or your rear bumper paint. However, aside from the power increase it will give you, removing the cat removes the possibility that it will clog on your car, which can cause significant localized heat within your cat, header, and back up into your engine. I believe that my engine failed due to housing warp from a failed cat. B) Upgrade your cooling system. Do not rely on your temperature needle. By the time it starts to move, the engine is already hot enough to be able to start warping. Damage is almost guaranteed. You have to understand what each component of your coolant system does, don't just go upgrading willy-nilly. The radiator is what transfers the heat out of the coolant. An upgraded radiator means a faster heat dump from the coolant it sees (actual upgrade, many aftermarket radiators are NOT upgrades). However, the thermostat is what controls what coolant gets to the radiator, and if the coolant temp drops to a certain point, it won't even send the coolant to the radiator to dump heat from. So if you have a 200 degree thermostat, and your coolant temps sit at 200 degrees, upgrading your radiator will do nothing to drop this! It will only increase the rate of temperature drop when you are ABOVE your thermostat temp. Upgrading your thermostat to a lower temperature is what can allow your radiator to bring temps down. If you are getting an engine rebuild, there are improvements you can have done to your coolant passages to aid their heat transfer from the block to the coolant. There is also the water pump, which pushes the coolant through the system. It's speed is based on RPM speed, and the OEM water pump can have quite a bit of trouble moving coolant at high RPM. Upgrading the water pump can help reduce heat-spotting in the engine C) Lower the trigger temp for the radiator fans. The OEM trigger temp is almost 'too high' already. There are a few kits you can buy, as well as it is built into Mazdamaniac's AccessPORT base tune. So your fan runs more, but your system stays cooler. D) Flush radiator fluid periodically. Already part of regular maintenance, but more critical for our engines than piston engines. - Excessive exhaust temperatures overheat the side seal springs This is a failure that most of us don't have to really worry about. It's the number one failure method in race engines, and I suspect most turbo'ed engine failures that don't involve a sudden lean spike detonation. Lots of exhaust heat builds up exhaust port heat, leading to the side seal spring deforming until it gets to the point that it pushes the side seal out of place, the seal catches the exhaust port and shatters. This is usually only a problem in cars putting down ~220whp or more, AND spends most of it's life at high RPM and high load (like a race engine). It is a scale, it's likely more about how much "increments of energy" the spring takes, and a lower power level can get away with more high load than a higher power, etc... A) The only 'known' solution for this is using the side seal springs from the FD engine. I have nothing to prove this, and you can find race teams that swear there is nothing to do about it and other race teams that swear they no longer have the problem. If you are getting a rebuild and want to reduce this risk, there is likely no harm in going with the FD side seal springs, and it very well may help. B) Increasing the efficiency of the exhaust system will also reduce exhaust port temps. A more efficient exhaust dumps heat more rapidly, reducing buildup. - Fuel pump failure or high lateral G left turns with low fuel causes fuel starvation under load, creating a lean spike that causes detonation and shatters seals This is an all-too-frequent failure seen. If you expect frequent full throttle hard left curves, it is recommended to not let the tank get under 1/4 remaining. (like if you have such a curve in your regular driving and could hit it at all sorts of fuel levels). The actual point of failure is somewhat lower than that, and a sudden starvation doesn't MEAN your engine will fail, but it's certainly possible. The OEM fuel pumps can start failing around 60,000 miles (for 2004-2008, the 2009-2012 should be better), though can certainly last far longer. Most fuel pump failures are due to overheating of the pump, and will suddenly stop pumping, which suddenly shuts off the engine inexplicably. Letting the car sit for a while and then restarting should get it started just fine as if nothing happened. If this happens to you, stay low load, low RPM and get it where you can park it for a fuel pump replacement. Going full throttle with a fuel pump failing is dangerous to your engine. I personally know someone who lost their engine to their fuel pump failure, but didn't know it. The dealer didn't know it either, put in a new engine, and while on the shakedown after installation, the fuel pump gave out again and destroyed that engine too. - Cat failure (even more common than engine failure) causes localized heat and pressure buildup that overstresses the seals and breaks down oil viscosity, leading to various issues I've covered the issues with cat failure, so this is largely a redundant point. If you can remove it, do it. - Clogged oil injection lines prevent oil from being injected, leading to excessive apex seal wear and side seal overheating, leading to compression loss and/or catastrophic failure (depending on which fails first) This is one of the 'silent killers'. The only real symptom of clogged oil injection lines is when oil consumption drops below the 1qt / 1,500miles rate. A) You can run seafoam through them using engine vacuum as a good cleaning method. There is no set recommendation on how often to do it, but the longer you go between oil changes, the more likely you are to need it more frequently. No shop or dealer will have any idea on how to do this, or even what you are talking about, so just do it yourself for free. B) If you run the SOHN adapter, this becomes largely negated, as the clean 2-stroke will not be prone to clogging. - Subpar reman engine quality, starting with low compression that accelerates any other issue (reman quality has improved over the years, but bad apples are still reported) There isn't anything you can do about getting a reman engine that has poor seal clearances or overly worn parts. So, cross your fingers. For a specific thread on further steps to take, read HiFlight's excellent thread: https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...ries-i-190372/ |
Questions we can't answer:
(This was adapted from NASIOC's thread here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=718033) The following are questions we cannot answer on RX8Club and the reasons why: Car insurance questions of any type. Car insurance is metered via the state, city, car year, car model, car trim level, car modifications, driving record, amount of drivers, drivers' age, drivers' marital status, car use, driving record of users, and about 99 other things. All of these components are crunched by the 10,000 different auto insurers to give you 10,000 different quotes. If you have a question, please contact your insurance company or seek quotes. My insurance rates have zero to do with what you will pay and wont be in the same neighborhood, ballpark, or galaxy as yours. Want a quote that means a crap? Visit one of these online calculators: www.geico.com www.progressive.com www.allstate.com www.statefarm.com www.farmers.com www.libertymutual.com www.usaa.com Does that not satisfy you enough? Then check out this Insurance thread here: https://www.rx8club.com/purchasing-financing-insurance-56/what-you-paying-insurance-your-rx-8-a-163071/ That should help you see how massively wide the range is, and maybe you can find someone similar to you. There are other insurance threads as well, so go ahead and use the search methods to locate one before posting a new thread about it. 'How much to fix my damaged RX-8' questions. Posting pics for sympathy is fine. Asking people how much to fix will net you 12,000 guesses. You don't get a diagnosis for cancer online and the same rules apply with car damage. This sounds mean spirited, but it is honestly true. 'Is my car totaled' questions. Pretty much the same as above. Most insurance companies will only total your car if the damage is 75% of the value. This figure varies with each company. Looks account for nothing, having your car totaled is a question of the damage limit or percentage for each particular insurance company. If your car is bent like a banana and they can straighten it under the limit, your car is NOT totaled. If the police officer, your cousin Earl, or the tow truck driver Ted says it's likely to be totaled, that means ZERO to your insurance company. Want to maximize what you get out of an insurance claim? This applies to every car out there, not just RX-8s: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/how-get-most-insurance-claim-218419/ Fantastic thread. 'How much should I pay for my RX-8'? We live in a fair market economy. This means that Bob in Texas and Jan in Indiana buying the same car will not pay the same price. This is further complicated by the fact that Bob has a $2000 down payment, a $1500 trade-in, got to use $1500 incentives in March, pays 4.5% tax, his license is $625, and handling and associated fees in the amount of $725. Jan has a $4500 down payment, no trade-in, got to use $2000 incentives in April, pays 3% tax, her license is $411, and handling and associated fees in the amount of $895. Even with these complications, let's say that you find out that Bob paid $22,000 and Jan paid $22,500 for a 2005 RX-8 with no options just like you want. Does this mean you will pay between $22K and $22.5K? No. Aside from state taxes, state fees, incentives, and other state and monthly variables, it all boils down to supply and demand. While $22.5K is fine at dealership A, dealership b may take no less than $23.5K. Always remember: people tend to downplay their paid price to make them seem to be a crafty bargainer for some reason. Their "out the door price" they quote you is almost always missing taxes, trade-in credit, down payment, incentives, etc. 'My Check Engine Light is on, what is wrong type' questions. Any question related to a CEL is worthless unless you list your car type and the PXXXX CEL code. Without both pieces of information you won't get a straight answer. Listing your modifications and the time line between your last mod(s) and the new CEL helps too. We also have a list of all CEL codes here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/rx-8-technical-info-cel-codes-pcm-pin-list-collision-guide-26291/ If you do a Google search on the site for your CEL code, you will find prior posts and threads of people that have had it, and what they did to resolve it. Will car X (with mods y and z) beat my car in a race or from a roll type questions. This type of question is called "bench racing". Go to a track and find out. 95% of racing is the driver. Bench racing is all theory, but theories don't win bragging rights or trophies. I am going for a tune with XXX mods, what will my WHP be? Let's follow the chain of factors: your tuner's ability, the type/condition of your spark plugs, your fuel octane, the temperature, the elevation, the humidity, the dyno SAE correction factor, the dyno type, whether it's a loading dyno or not, your mods, whether your mods are working properly or not. Let's say Timmy in Colorado says you should get 200 WHP with those mods and your session in Califiornia nets you 190WHP. Guess what? 190 WHP is all you are ever going to get and second guessing the tuner seems to be your only alternative when in fact you should second guess all the factors above as they all play a roll. The fact is your WHP figures are your WHP figures and there is not such thing as average when it comes to dyno figures except for possibly 100% stock vehicles. What turbo do I have? The only surefire method of finding out what turbo you have is to pay for an inspection at a reputable turbo shop such as Forced Performance or Blouch. It should run under $100 and while they are in there, they can tell you what it is and if it's good or needs a rebuild, new seals, etc. to run right/better. This was left in for laughs... Questions we CAN answer: Most issues that the RX-8 faces are easily answered when you post detailed, descriptive, and accurate explanations of what symptoms you are having with your RX-8. Many of our issues share common symptoms with at least one other issue. Several of the really common issues share MOST of their symptoms with another problem. So when you post: "power loss?" We can't really tell you what is going on. We can only throw the book of possible issues at you for you to figure out. The amount of assistance you receive is DIRECTLY associated to how much detail you provide! So what do you need to share? A) Break each issue you are seeing out by itself. For each of these issues, detail what RPMs it occurs in, and what RPMs it doesn't. Detail how much throttle you are giving when it occurs. B) Detail what the ambient temperatures are that you are seeing, what the gauges are doing. C) If you have a CEL, GIVE US THE CODE! (most auto-parts stores will pull the code for free for you. Otherwise, you can buy a code reader for LESS than the dealer's diagnostic price, giving you a discount on that one, and free code pulling for the rest of the device's life, across every car you own) (Hint, search with Google and site:rx8club.com <CEL> before posting. You will probably find your answer.) D) Detail any possible modifications or repairs that have been made within the last 3,000 miles, even if it seems like it's not related. E) Detail the age and mileage of the car, and what maintenance history it has been on. NOT just "it's gotten regular maintenance" because there are wear items that are not part of "regular maintenance" for dealers and most shops. F) Since many issues are ignition related, and you are going to get asked, give us the mileage and age of ignition coils, wires, and plugs. G) Detail out when it DOESN'T happen. This is just as critical as when it does! Another thing to keep in mind is that unless you are being a complete jackass, and unless the person responding to you is ignorant about the issues, our answers are going to be pretty accurate, if not dead on. Even if you don't like the option. We have no stake in your finances, no stake in making money off of it. We DON'T like to see unhealthy or busted 8s. So if you choose to ignore our recommendations, do so at your own peril, and don't come whining to us that you shoveled money at the problem that was completely unneeded. |
This was written before the introduction of the New Member subforum, and established members were REALLY hard on new members. If you are new, you still might get some of this outside of the new member subforum, but in general it is far better than it was. The text below is retained mostly to understand why you might be getting a harsh reaction in the future.
Why are we so hard / harsh on newbies? You may notice that many new owners join this forum and promptly create a thread that generates lots of negative feedback from the people already here, the newbie ends up getting butthurt about it and claims it's a "mean forum" or "we are all dicks", etc... Not every newbie of course, and just the fact that you are reading this thread means you probably won't subject yourself to that. But why do we do it? Here is a fantastic post from TeamRX8 on why.
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
(Post 4130444)
This involves several issues. The first being that you can't see beyond your own immediate needs and wants. This is not Wiki8Club. It took many of us years and years of involvement and reading to amass the knowledge.
Imagine somebody coming here daily, in fact it is often multiple people daily, asking if not demanding the same information over and over again. We are not your on demand servants. We are people just like you with other priorities and demands in our lives, limited time, our own personal interests for being here, etc. Why should we spend that time catering to people that come here seeking instant gratification? That leaves us with two options. We can either ignore you completely or we can tell that the info is here if you bother to make the effort. However, over several years of telling people this you eventually get fed up dealing with the continuous stream of people seeking instant gratification yet you still would rather point them in the right direction so you just bark at them to get the point across. Imagine someone coming to your house, going to your living room, pulling their pants down, and taking a dump right there on the carpet just because they didn't know any better. You might be annoyed and yet also understanding because they didn't know any better. Now imagine this being a different person doing this every day. It wouldn't be long before you just as soon they go away and never come back. Almost every day there is some clueless dolt posting a tech or troubleshooting question in the DiY area, despite there being a sticky thread at the top saying to only post threads there with DIY instructions and subsequent discussion of same. The real issue is that people think they are free to just come here and do as they damn well please and there's no need for etiquette, rules, structure, or organization unless it serves their own personal interest. Well guess what? We're not here to cater to new uninformed people that come in here trampling all over everything regardless if they're ignorant, just don't care, or whatever. This is like any social community and so if you make waves you better expect to deal with it. If you don't like it then get the f' out because the established community could care less about some newbie whining about not getting what they want immediately. We do care about you clogging up the search engine with useless threads on already established subjects, which there is a dedicated thread on this very subject in this same forum area no less. It took me 10 minutes to explain this. Now imagine multiple people daily requiring it, so you make a Sticky thread at the top that says "read this first" and yet every single new person just like yourself thinks they are beyond trying to fit in properly so that this forum operates smoothly for all of us. You probably don't read Japanese, but the line in my sig is a well known Japanese proverb that reads "the nail that sticks out gets hammered". You made yourself that nail. Most of the people that are being the hammer for those nails use either the New Posts feature (https://www.rx8club.com/search.php?do=getnew) or the Live! feature (https://www.rx8club.com/misc.php?product=vblive) (both are in your top bar under the banner), and see posts with issues pretty quickly. We do not use these features with the express intention of flaming and bashing. We use them so that when someone posts up an actual issue that needs actual help, we can react quickly to their request. We do not do this because we are paid to do it, we do it because we believe in our community (at one level or another). We want to improve it and make it better, so as we have time during our normal lives we look for issues we can help with, we look for new ideas, new projects, etc... But, in the process, we see all the garbage that people clutter the forum with because they feel themselves above reading what has already been posted, and that garbage gets to us. So thank you for reading, and your help is certainly appreciated in guiding people this way too. |
Useful Links: (re-write)
- Official FAQ, including common terms and issues: Faq - Update - RX8Club.com - Acronyms and Terminology: { FS } 2004 Rx-8 Salvage - RX8Club.com - Congratz, you just bought an 8 (and a few helpful things to do) Congratulations, you got an 8. - RX8Club.com - TSB Thread: https://www.rx8club.com/trouble-shoo...4/#post3258119 - Proper jacking and jackstand points: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tec...0/#post4603052 - How to properly reset the various learned parameters in the ECU: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...memory-169443/ |
4 Attachment(s)
How to use the Forum:
(If you, as a new member, have a request for something else to add, please PM it to me and I will add it) The Subforum page: https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1402329608 A single post: https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1402329608 The Quick Reply box: https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1402329608 Editing your post: https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1402329608 |
Thread structure has been revised, and many posts have been overhauled significantly. Rewrites are still in progress for many sections.
June 9th: Adding 'How to use the Forum' |
I have moved RX8Help.com to a new host, and the site has undergone many improvements. The most obvious one is that the site is once again mobile friendly, way over-due since something like 80% of the visitors are from mobile devices.
I'm returning to put more time and effort into the site and the content again, so check back periodically or subscribe to the mailing list. |
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